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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H] #198362 03/27/2019 6:20 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.



There are exceptions to that rule. I have in recent years seen firsthand bullets that came apart on the onside of animals and never made it to the vitals. So bullet construction in my humble opinion is critical. If one chooses a premium bullet, it's just one less thing you have consider or worry about. JMHO.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198363 03/27/2019 7:36 PM
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At the end of the day, it's good, basic common sense really. Place your shots properly, use a good, quality bullet and use enough gun...


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198365 03/27/2019 8:34 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
At the end of the day, it's good, basic commo n sense really. Place your shots properly, use a good, quality bullet and use enough gun...


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: jamesfromjersey] #198366 03/27/2019 9:09 PM
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All of those i think are givens. Its what denotes quality is where the main discussion happens.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark] #198367 03/27/2019 9:50 PM
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Yeah, that?s a cop out. We are here to discuss specifics. A good bullet is not a given as many go to field with subpar bullets. The bullet isn?t important, it?s everything.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198368 03/27/2019 10:01 PM
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There's no cop out in my answer. Common sense is to use a good, quality bullet. Be able to control the recoil without downloading to be able to place the good, quality bullet in the kill zone. Good Quality to me is a bonded, heavy for caliber, jacketed bullet (this differs with others). When I've done this, it's never let me down, nor have I had to shoot something 7, 8, 9, or 10 times. A cop out is giving advice without seeing it work or proving it first.....aka the Linebaugh Theory


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198369 03/28/2019 4:11 AM
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Vance in AK. Offline OP
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Thanks for all the input guys.
For now I think I will stick with either 300 or 320gr hardcast. I'm thinking cast performance 300 wfn for now since i have some & they are available locally. I found some 300 Swift Aframes but the crimp grove is way high to the nose. Checking load data it looks like it uses a lot of case space &runs pretty slow so I think I will pass on it. I will order some of the Speer Deepcurls & see how they do for a practice bullet. Maybe put one in as the first bullet if I'm stalking a black bear or for moose followed by hardcast so I can see how the deepcurl performs for my self.
Good shot placement + good bullet = short blood trail.

I just wish you guys all agreed which bullet was best so I could order a thousand & get on with it :-)


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198375 03/28/2019 6:40 AM
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For sure you have to have both. Make a perfect shot on a megatron animal, say a large bull elk, a moose or some of the animals that are non dangerous but 500-600 lbs bigger with a cup & core bullet or a brittle cast bullet & bullet placement will break your heart.
It takes both & exits are always welcome when we pull the gun down out of recoil.
To put the emphasis on one without the other is asking for trouble. Take on something really big & dangerous & you just about guaranteed failure.
Vance with the bullets you mention I don't think there's anything up there that can contain one of them unless you are shooting them lengthways, those are mighty fine bullets.
If you need need some heavy weights PM me an address & I'll send you some. They will be powder coated either red or black, your call.

Dick

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198376 03/28/2019 8:16 AM
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l was with some of the best handgun shots in the country last

Saturday at this years' first IHMSA Big Bore.. Lots of them also

handgun hunt... The ONLY point agreed on was shot placement. Some

like big holes to completely penetrate the game.. Others want

rapid expansion inside the animal dumping all the bullet energy.

These are men that can take a handgun and topple five steel rams

in a row STANDING @ 200 meters... One guy hunts with a Contender

in 45-70 using 400gr Cast boolits. Another hunts with an XP in

6.5 Grendel.. Just no agreement on bullet type or caliber..

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282] #198385 03/28/2019 5:58 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sw282
l was with some of the best handgun shots in the country last

Saturday at this years' first IHMSA Big Bore.. Lots of them also

handgun hunt... The ONLY point agreed on was shot placement. Just no agreement on bullet type or caliber..


That`s America.....


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198387 03/28/2019 6:38 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.



There are exceptions to that rule. I have in recent years seen firsthand bullets that came apart on the onside of animals and never made it to the vitals. So bullet construction in my humble opinion is critical. If one chooses a premium bullet, it's just one less thing you have consider or worry about. JMHO.


I don't mean to ignore the importance of bullet construction. The point I was trying to make is a well constructed expanding bullet and a well contructed cast or mono metal ogival wadcutter can both be effective killers on game. That said, shot placement is paramount, and it also plays into what bullet one chooses.

I think most of us will agree that on a broadside shot into the heart/lungs with no bones hit, we'd expect an expanding bullet that exits to be a better choice than the flat nosed solid. Conversely on a quartering shot or a shot that encounters heavy bone that would compromise the penetration of the expanding bullet, the solid is a better choice. Fringe shots, maybe the expanding bullet is better if it does more damage to edge of the vitals, or maybe the solid is better as it has the penetration to do more damage.

Perhaps we can also agree that with most handgun rounds there simply isn't enough power to get both deep penetration and a large wound channel as one would with a rifle. So one has to trade off penetration for wound channel. One also has to trade off certain shot penetrations depending on the bullet they choose.

There is no one perfect answer and every hunt and every animal is somewhat unique.

Last edited by Paul_H; 03/28/2019 6:40 PM.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198388 03/28/2019 7:32 PM
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I just wish you guys all agreed which bullet was best so I could order a thousand & get on with it :-)
[/quote]

That is why there is 64 colors in a Crayola Crayon Box, not everyone likes the same thing!!
I am with you on the DeepCurl bullets. I plan on shooting some pigs with them and see if I like them.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: rougerocco] #198389 03/28/2019 8:50 PM
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U can. Use the faster heavy hitters. Use and buy a couple thousand swift aframes and fire from any angle. If u wanna run light loads ya need a solid. Ive used aframes as small as 210 gr out of a 41 on bison and killed numerous over a 1000 lb animals with aframes at different angle with 454?s and 460?s. Change that to a 480 and a 44 and im using solids on animals that size which, if placed correctly with kill with aplomb. Monometal is better for the really big stuff. Got good penetration and down a cape buff going away from me at 150 yards with a 460 with an aframe

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark] #198410 03/29/2019 7:38 PM
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A 150 yd shot on a Cape Buffalo going away with a revolver is one dandy shot! Congratulations!!

Dick

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198411 03/29/2019 9:32 PM
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Anyone have any experience with HSMs WFN Hard cast 305gr "Bear Load" in the 44mag? Literally half the price of Buffalo Bore. My reloading stuff is torn down right now so I picked up 2 boxes of the HSM for practice & a box of Buffalo Bore +P+ 340s for carry.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198415 03/29/2019 10:29 PM
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Not that load, but my son hunts with an HSM 257 Roberts load and it is absolutely superb. It is the most accurate gun\load combo I've ever seen in person. If that load is any proof of their quality, then I'd have no problem recommending them.


John

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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK] #198425 03/30/2019 2:01 AM
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Just wondering about the quality of the cast bullets they use.


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Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198435 03/30/2019 1:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Just wondering about the quality of the cast bullets they use.


They?re on the soft side.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198437 03/30/2019 1:39 PM
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l shoot cast almost exclusively

Last edited by sw282; 04/05/2019 3:54 AM.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282] #198441 03/30/2019 2:45 PM
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Would that be a good thing Whit? Or too soft so they mushroom?


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Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198462 04/01/2019 3:14 AM
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No. I tried em while guiding for oryx and aoudad on a friends ranch. Had to put a clients down. Kinda smudged thru the shoulder into the shap of a melting hersheys kiss. Didnt do much damage. Didnt finish it quickly either. Client was outta bullets and killed it with the last 3 finally.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark] #198464 04/01/2019 5:10 AM
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Thanks Mark... Sounds like good practice ammo.


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Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198466 04/01/2019 3:50 PM
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Of all the components that come into play when using a cartridge in a revolver to hunt and kill BIG game, it is the bullet that is most important. Why? Because that is the only vehicle that actually touches the game, and is meant to kill it as humanely as possible.
The integrity of that bullet to do as it was designed to do is of paramount importance. So do proper research before you use a bullet to kill your game. The humane thing is to kill the animal as quickly as possible. Bullet placement and bullet integrity go hand in hand. Keep both at your highest concern and action when hunting.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460] #198470 04/02/2019 1:24 AM
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Jeff, you nailed it.

Dick

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460] #198471 04/02/2019 1:30 AM
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Years ago I was a diehard hard-cast guy out of my Ruger SBH .44. Never recovered a single bullet as they were all pass theoughs. However, even heart/lung hit animals seem to always lead me on really long and sparse blood trails. Eventually, I didn't recover a perfectly hit deer until the next morning and lost the meat. That was the straw that broke the camels back for me and I switched to expanding bullets and upped my speed.

I'm not saying cast is bad. I'm not saying they don't have their place. Just relaying my experience.

I'm now, however, firmly in the heavy/fast/expanding camp unless circumstances don't allow it for some reason.

Last edited by Randy M; 04/02/2019 1:32 AM.

The meat won't fry if the lead don't fly.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M] #198473 04/02/2019 3:51 AM
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Me too randy. I took the same path. I remember for me the final straw was shooting an oryx with my buddy, the ranch owner, with a 475 linebaugh with 420 gr wfn?s. All of these oryx except the few i hunted were wounded client animals. Id guide some and the rest were follow ups i was called in to track and finish when the hunt went south after the wounding was done. There was a method to the madness and i was usually on my own but my buddy was present on Many of them. I always had hit em with fast barnes or aframes out of a 454 and they killed em quick. Really quick. This one oryx bull had been hit low in the front leg and they had chased it for two days and the client was stressing hed never find it on their 60k acres. I got there and my buddy told him to sit tight and that i would go recover it. So me and the owner went out. I shot it right at the back of the shoulder with that 475 with the big ole wfn. Tracked on gps we finally caught up amd finished the tough adrenaline crazed critter 7 miles later!!! That was enough. The first shot caught the lungs. Just didnt do much damage. Had i hit it a couple inches forward it woulda died fairly quickly, a heart shot wouldve had it down within 100 yards. Well it was on the move and never could catch up to him still and so a perfect shot was not probable. It was good but not perfect. Never needed that mich perfection with the barnes and aframes running fast.


That said, if one wants a good tough cast bullet that imho is the best ive tested it would be the rimrocks. Garrets are good but available only in loaded ammo and in just a few calibers. Just imho.

Last edited by tradmark; 04/02/2019 3:54 AM.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark] #198474 04/02/2019 6:59 AM
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We have kind of lost the original criteria. The field of hunted animals were black bear, brown bear(costal up to 10'), and moose. Sometimes maybe all possiblein on one day so a "one bullet does it all" load. Gun is 44 mag so heavy AND fast not a real possibility like with 454, 460 etc.


Vance in AK.

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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198477 04/02/2019 1:02 PM
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This is tough Vance. Most of us spent decades reading the classic pioneer hand gunner literature extolling the virtues of HC lead. But, new bullets, of which the technology really came into its own around 2005ish maybe, is adding new chapters to the book. But, the info is much more limited and it?s hard not to be a bit leary when the game includes brown bears.


John

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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK] #198482 04/02/2019 4:31 PM
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Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.

Which get's back to my original comment about shot placement, as it is tied into the bullets you use and the shots you take, or don't take.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H] #198483 04/02/2019 4:36 PM
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Not to shock or surprise anyone, but Swift had handgun a frames in the late 90's and Nosler had the Partitions at the same time and Speer had the bonded gold dot and unicore handgun bullets...Barnes came much later, but I was singing their praises in the late nineties


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198485 04/02/2019 5:48 PM
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Some of the designs have been around for a while, but the manufacturers have gotten really good about engineering performance to velocity ranges and, of course, manufacturing technology gets better all the time. I haven?t followed hunting bullets much, because old designs work so well for deer, but with law enforcement/self defense ammo, there was a real turning point in performance with bonded (really bonded!)/barrier blind rounds. That?s why I went from a .45 to a .40 to a 9mm!


John

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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H] #198486 04/02/2019 6:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.



I would bank on an A-frame successfully punching through heavy bone long before any cast bullet. They're impressive performers. I don't think they present any limitations on shot placement. However, many jacketed expanding bullets are clearly not up to the task of negotiating heavy bone impact.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198492 04/02/2019 6:54 PM
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While I've admitted many times a cast bullet has its limitations compared to the premium bullets like the A Frames, etc it comes down to what is a BIG bone. I'll always be in the minority camp on this but I'm comfortable with it because I've never had a problem with cast in my type of hunting. I don't hunt the megatron's & I've killed a hell of a lot of big game with cast & I always shake my head when others have had problems.
I've always said I "think" it's because they use hard cast but we can argue that forever & never sort it out. I've always been open about shooting them as soft as possible & still maintaining accuracy & seldom at speeds above 1300 fps.
I've said it before, a hard cast on a hard bone, especially at high speeds is asking for trouble, better used a jacketed here.
I've never changed because I've never hunted anything bigger than elk, moose, bears, lion, plains game, etc. I've maybe recovered 5-6 bullets over a 50 year span & almost all of those have been in the last 5-6 years using some cast HP's on deer.
When you are breaking both front shoulders of large elk with a cast bullet & exiting you don't need to make excuses for your bullets but you do have to concede to better bullets if you hunt the really big, big stuff.... I don't. I can make my cast bullets expand as much or as little as I like by adjusting my alloy & speed & it's never, ever failed, I've never lost an animal or had to have any help & maybe 3 have even got out of sight.
Where I live & hunt it's usually more open so getting out of sight can be a little tougher than for many of you, I do it to suit me, others do it for the same reasons, why would we do it any other way?
Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198495 04/02/2019 6:59 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot

Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick
even if its a two step bullet..


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198498 04/02/2019 7:26 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
While I've admitted many times a cast bullet has its limitations compared to the premium bullets like the A Frames, etc it comes down to what is a BIG bone. I'll always be in the minority camp on this but I'm comfortable with it because I've never had a problem with cast in my type of hunting. I don't hunt the megatron's & I've killed a hell of a lot of big game with cast & I always shake my head when others have had problems.
I've always said I "think" it's because they use hard cast but we can argue that forever & never sort it out. I've always been open about shooting them as soft as possible & still maintaining accuracy & seldom at speeds above 1300 fps.
I've said it before, a hard cast on a hard bone, especially at high speeds is asking for trouble, better used a jacketed here.
I've never changed because I've never hunted anything bigger than elk, moose, bears, lion, plains game, etc. I've maybe recovered 5-6 bullets over a 50 year span & almost all of those have been in the last 5-6 years using some cast HP's on deer.
When you are breaking both front shoulders of large elk with a cast bullet & exiting you don't need to make excuses for your bullets but you do have to concede to better bullets if you hunt the really big, big stuff.... I don't. I can make my cast bullets expand as much or as little as I like by adjusting my alloy & speed & it's never, ever failed, I've never lost an animal or had to have any help & maybe 3 have even got out of sight.
Where I live & hunt it's usually more open so getting out of sight can be a little tougher than for many of you, I do it to suit me, others do it for the same reasons, why would we do it any other way?
Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick


You're right, Dick. I really hadn't questioned the effectiveness of cast bullets that I have used on quite a few heads of game over many years. I used to always joke about pictures of cast bullets I've used, but the trouble is that I had never recovered one until the Bovine Bash happened. Granted, it's on the extreme end of testing, but that really is the purpose. I lived in Florida where I hunted hogs regularly and also used to make forays down to North Carolina at least a half-dozen times a year to kill hogs and more often than not I used cast bullets and these were free-ranging so nothing was keeping mistakes I made on shot placement from running away to never be recovered. Never an issue.

I resisted the A-frame for years, but Mark kept sticking them in front of my nose having been recovered from all manner of animal from thin-skinned to big and heavy boned with all of the same results seemingly no matter what the bullets came in contact with. It's almost ridiculous, and unrealistic, but they really seem to have nailed the design on these.

Most every failure I have experienced with cast bullets has resulted in a dead animal so one could argue semantics, but it has always been the really big animals where my concern has been centered. I killed a large cow moose in Maine years ago with cast bullets and they did their job without issue and frankly I will continue to use them in a certain capacity.

The Swift A-frame is clearly an anomaly and an exception to the rule in my experience!


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Semper Fidelis

BIG IRON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6aXjMH5C30

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Paul_H] #198504 04/02/2019 8:22 PM
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tradmark Offline
Shooting Expert
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Posts: 3,020
 Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.

Which get's back to my original comment about shot placement, as it is tied into the bullets you use and the shots you take, or don't take.



If you shoot the biguns no need to limit shots. Either myself or a hi ting bud has put down numerous over 1000lb animals on all manner of poorly angle shots thru heavy bones. Several put down in 20 yards.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: tradmark] #198521 04/03/2019 3:32 PM
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Ernie Offline
Distinguished Master
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I have enjoyed this thread.


Ernie the Un-Tactical
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Ernie] #198529 04/04/2019 3:34 AM
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Raptortrapper Offline
Shooting Master
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I'm filling up on popcorn.


A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!

Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Ernie] #198531 04/04/2019 10:35 AM
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racksmasher1 Offline
veteran
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veteran
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Posts: 1,595
 Originally Posted By: Ernie
I have enjoyed this thread.
X2

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: racksmasher1] #198532 04/04/2019 11:56 AM
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Mark Hampton Offline
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 730
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.

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