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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Mark Hampton] #198538 04/04/2019 2:15 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


MARK: CIGARS, NOW WE ARE TALKING!

THIS, AND SIMILAR BULLET PERFORMANCE THREADS INVOLVING REVOLVERS, ARE INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINING.


"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN] #198539 04/04/2019 3:50 PM
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Yea, I'm afraid we may not have helped Vance much, but I've learned from this thread! It's given me something to think about and challenged long held, but maybe no longer relevant, beliefs.


John

But for the grace of God, there, I go.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Mark Hampton] #198540 04/04/2019 4:16 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


Count me in!


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: JDK] #198541 04/04/2019 4:27 PM
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John, hopefully this thread has opened a few closed minded eyes. Hard Cast bullets NEVER did what some claimed. Those writers either could not handle recoil, or we too lazy to actually test heavy, bonded big bore pistol bullets..it was in today's words Fake News


The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198542 04/04/2019 4:29 PM
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I'm referring to the last twenty years by the way


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198544 04/04/2019 5:10 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
John, hopefully this thread has opened a few closed minded eyes. Hard Cast bullets NEVER did what some claimed. Those writers either could not handle recoil, or we too lazy to actually test heavy, bonded big bore pistol bullets..it was in today's words Fake News


I'll put my old .50 Alaskan revolver loaded with 525 grain hardcast bullets up to any single-shot in a head-to-head (head busting?), hang on for dear life recoil contest! At less than 4-lbs that SOB is like riding a bull in a rodeo with nothing to hang onto. Hahahahaha


Time for some comedy relief...


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198545 04/04/2019 5:11 PM
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Franchise, what do you mean when you say hard cast bullets never did what some people claim? Also, am I "lazy" if I don't seat a bonded bullet instead of a cast bullet, they seat the same way.

Dick

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198546 04/04/2019 5:32 PM
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I knew that what I wrote sounded harsh, but the writers of the time claimed that a heavy for caliber bullet at 900 fps to 1100 fps was gods gift to penetration and tissue damage and that they were far superior to any expanding bullet


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198547 04/04/2019 5:34 PM
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I l can't count how many times that I would read that the only way to reach the vitals of a big game animal with a handgun was with a HC bulle....which is just crazy


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198548 04/04/2019 5:37 PM
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The recoil comment was in relation to 900 fps - 1100 fps is much easier to control than the say load at 1,800 fps....hence all the downloading


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198549 04/04/2019 5:40 PM
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U are right. I heard the same for years. I think they can work and run what ya want, but i have used and continue to use both extensively and with my big boomers i know what i feel is most effective.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198550 04/04/2019 5:49 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The recoil comment was in relation to 900 fps - 1100 fps is much easier to control than the say load at 1,800 fps....hence all the downloading


Just kidding...


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198551 04/04/2019 5:51 PM
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The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198552 04/04/2019 5:52 PM
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The 50 Alaskan exceeds my recoil tolerance for sure...hahaha


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198553 04/04/2019 5:55 PM
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Vance in AK. Offline OP
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You guys may not of helped me much, but it's been a great "welcome home" to the forum party! Sorry to have caused so much trouble! Actually it's been well worth it. Great discussion.
I know one thing. My choice of cartridges is marginal. Completely adequate for black bear & moose but throwing brown bear in with the same bullet really complicates it.
The jacketed bullets can't be driven as fast as the cast at the same pressure limits & as they get slower I worry that they won't perform at all & will simply become a solid with a nose profile that leads to less damage than a comparable weight wfn cast and since impact velocity will be less the penetration will be less...
If I knew that swift A Frames would open AND penetrate at my impact velocities I would gladly buy them at twice the retail price...
The second (sad) thing I am pretty sure of is I will never get to kill enough animals to really draw my own conclusions! So keep yours coming!!!!!!!


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198554 04/04/2019 5:57 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL


With the same cast bullet, they tend to go neck and neck as far as depth of penetration. However, the one that is traveling 500 fps faster is definitely doing more damage. But these speeds exceed the cast bullet's ultimate capability, especially if they encounter heavy bone. Hence, moderate velocity is better with cast bullets.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198555 04/04/2019 5:58 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The 50 Alaskan exceeds my recoil tolerance for sure...hahaha


It exceeds mine too!


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198556 04/04/2019 6:00 PM
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What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Franchise] #198557 04/04/2019 6:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL


Thats part of the mythology. Penetration doesnt equal effectiveness. Ill always take more damage over more penetration once enough penetratation has been reached. Same thing with the hardcast revolver bullets penetrated as well as a 470 nitro etc. so they penetrate the same but i can tell you which made more damage. That is something that ive not seen discussed around that round table.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: eggfooyoung5000] #198558 04/04/2019 6:04 PM
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 Originally Posted By: eggfooyoung5000
What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame



It doesnt in any way. The aframe expands reliably at lower velocity levels and holds together perfectly at levels above what a revolver can throw. Worst case scenario the aframe turns into a hard jacketed shank.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: eggfooyoung5000] #198559 04/04/2019 6:05 PM
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 Originally Posted By: eggfooyoung5000
What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame


In no way, shape or form.


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198560 04/04/2019 7:19 PM
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Any bullet that penetrates the central nervous system with sufficient force to damage it both structurally, as well as fatally, is a good bullet. And any bullet that can penetrate cross-ways from one side to the other of a large animal, laying waste to the lungs and rapidly depressurizing the lung cavity while exiting, is a good bullet.
Hard-cast or an A-Frame, it is the result that counts. So go forth and make results happen that we can all agree upon. The animal you hunt deserves a humane and relatively quick demise.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Jeff460] #198564 04/04/2019 10:25 PM
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Is it because XTP bullets break apart/jacket separation when it hits bone? I thought they usually have moderate expansion which allows for better penetration

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: eggfooyoung5000] #198565 04/04/2019 11:33 PM
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Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198567 04/05/2019 12:27 AM
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Cast bullets were, and always have been, built to do 2 things, penetrate & penetrate!! How & if they damage depends on nose profile. Expansion is usually zero or minimal but that is easy to change if you know how to do it, some do & some don't care, they just want penetration.
It's next to impossible to make them expand like a jacketed bullet & anyone that claims they can is wrong. If you shoot pure lead you might but that's not a cast bullet really.
Running cast bullets at 900-1100 fps & getting massive penetration is possible but it depends on nose profile & alloy & also what it comes in contact with, there's no free lunch.
It's a given that cast bullets are built to penetrate & jacketed bullets are built to expand, both can cross over to some extent but there's always a trade off so pick your poison.
Arguing what is best is senseless, use what you have confidence in, if you've had success with something for 30-40-50 years you probably have some pretty strong opinions on what works & how to get there, if your loads are bordering on failure, maybe listen to someone who's got a better hammer.
Our choices of guns, bullets, powders, scopes, rangefinders, etc has never been better, use what suits you & help out the new guys that ask for it.
If someone tells you several million Bison were killed with pure lead in a round ball at fairly pedestrian velocities..... buy him a CIGAR!

Dick

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Mark Hampton] #198570 04/05/2019 1:38 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...


The meat won't fry if the lead don't fly.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198572 04/05/2019 1:53 AM
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Damn good thread, Dick hit it on the nail, use what you have confidence in on the game you are hunting, most guys on this site will never kill a animal over 300 pounds, the bullet type you use, in my opinion on game that size really doesn?t matter, when the size of the animal goes up, now we have a different game, XTP?s, Swifts, and cast bullets all have their place,on the right size animals, bullet technology is better now than ever,thanks for all the good information, I think folks benefited from this thread, and I did have a cigar after supper!

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M] #198575 04/05/2019 2:34 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Randy M
 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...


Randy, I am 100% with you!


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sixshot] #198576 04/05/2019 2:35 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Cast bullets were, and always have been, built to do 2 things, penetrate & penetrate!! How & if they damage depends on nose profile. Expansion is usually zero or minimal but that is easy to change if you know how to do it, some do & some don't care, they just want penetration.
It's next to impossible to make them expand like a jacketed bullet & anyone that claims they can is wrong. If you shoot pure lead you might but that's not a cast bullet really.
Running cast bullets at 900-1100 fps & getting massive penetration is possible but it depends on nose profile & alloy & also what it comes in contact with, there's no free lunch.
It's a given that cast bullets are built to penetrate & jacketed bullets are built to expand, both can cross over to some extent but there's always a trade off so pick your poison.
Arguing what is best is senseless, use what you have confidence in, if you've had success with something for 30-40-50 years you probably have some pretty strong opinions on what works & how to get there, if your loads are bordering on failure, maybe listen to someone who's got a better hammer.
Our choices of guns, bullets, powders, scopes, rangefinders, etc has never been better, use what suits you & help out the new guys that ask for it.
If someone tells you several million Bison were killed with pure lead in a round ball at fairly pedestrian velocities..... buy him a CIGAR!

Dick




Amen brother!


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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Whitworth] #198577 04/05/2019 3:51 AM
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How good were Normas'44cal 240gr JSP TriClad bullets penetration?

l found a box the other day in my stash...

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282] #198579 04/05/2019 5:28 AM
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Gonna go grab my pipe now. Been a good thread for sure.


A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!

Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: sw282] #198580 04/05/2019 5:28 AM
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I thought I was about to have to give a few warnings when I logged in and saw all the replies this thread had garnered. Turns out it's not necessary.

Carry on, gentlemen, carry on.


Formerly TN Lone Wolf

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." - J.K. Rowling
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Chance Weldon] #198584 04/05/2019 10:34 AM
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It's definitely been a great thread, but I honestly think that they all are. Hopefully, people will be curious enough to test and try these bullets in question out for themselves, not the "I read it, it must be true" philosophy. Bullets to me are like many other things in life....advancements are GREAT....I know if something has worked for 200 years, well, oh no, let's not change it or make it better.....Outhouses work, but thank god for indoor plumbing.....cross cut saws cut down trees, but not like a chain saw, and last but not least, vaccines save lives, but some people are still resistant.....have a wonderful day


The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Vance in AK.] #198589 04/05/2019 2:08 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...


Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so my limited experience with 280 gr Aframes in 44 Mag is:

280 gr Aframe
21.5 gr H110 (start lower)
CCI 350
Starline virgin brass
1.590 oal
1370 fps ave
10" SBH

I really like 240 gr Aframe better for deer than 280 gr. They clock 1470 fps out of the 10" SBH. I don't hunt bear, moose, etc, so the lighter bullet suits my needs better. I haven't tried 300 gr Aframes. Hope this helps.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Randy M] #198600 04/05/2019 4:23 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Randy M
 Originally Posted By: Mark Hampton
No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.


A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...


That or a decent bourbon, can't go wrong.

Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Seminole Wind] #198605 04/05/2019 6:41 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Seminole Wind
 Originally Posted By: Vance in AK.
Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...


Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so my limited experience with 280 gr Aframes in 44 Mag is:

280 gr Aframe
21.5 gr H110 (start lower)
CCI 350
Starline virgin brass
1.590 oal
1370 fps ave
10" SBH

I really like 240 gr Aframe better for deer than 280 gr. They clock 1470 fps out of the 10" SBH. I don't hunt bear, moose, etc, so the lighter bullet suits my needs better. I haven't tried 300 gr Aframes. Hope this helps.


Thank you sir! That does help.


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: Seminole Wind] #198613 04/05/2019 11:57 PM
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Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so

YEP


"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: 45MAN] #198615 04/06/2019 1:50 AM
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my this is an active topic!
I saw the title and thought "uh oh, someone resurrected an old battle" but to my pleasure it's new and seems to be civil!


"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner] #198618 04/06/2019 3:31 AM
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Vance,
I own the Swift reloading manual if you are interested in any more data than what's above.

Swift makes A-Frames for lever guns, If I were you I think I would be scoping them out for my guide gun also

Last edited by BBwheelgunner; 04/06/2019 3:33 AM.

"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
Re: Cast or expanding for large big game??? [Re: BBwheelgunner] #198619 04/06/2019 5:29 AM
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Vance in AK. Offline OP
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BBwheelgunner, if i go back to shooting it i probably will.

I would love to have the full data for 280s and 300s on 44mag. If you could take a pic and text it to me at nine 07 398 792 one that would be awesome.


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
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