Serious question here. I'm curious what the majority of us handgunners think about values such as kinetic energy? Do you use this information when deciding on a load/factory ammo for a specific animal? If yes, what makes you give a load/factory ammo a thumbs up?

If no, I'm interested in your reasoning as well. For example, I read an interesting discussion on another board that was very much divided between hunters swearing by the information and those who think it's worthless. Probably all these hunters were rifle hunters though.

Again, I'm just curious on your opinion - don't need an education on the topic.

I only consider velocity in both rifle and handgun loading. I want a muzzle velocity that will give me an impact velocity within the operating threshold and integrity of the bullet I?m using. Sometimes, I go off the reservation just to see what happens. Science!

I haven?t considered ?energy? in almost 2 decades.

To my thinking it takes 200fps to get an appreciable benefit in trajectory be it rifle or pistol. I would rather change mass to increase energy than velocity. Energy figures have never been a consideration in selecting a load to hunt with, bullet selection and bullet placement trumps energy figures.
I strive for 1200fps in my hunting loads, and occasionally go faster. In my larger holed guns I have no issue with 900-1000 FPS, for hunting at 75yds or less.

Trapr

I tend to do pretty much what Zee does, but for me, increasing velocity, increases performance.....I think guys or gals that like a big, heavy bullets at 1,200 fps would be like someone seeing color for the first time if they see that same combo at 1,600 - 1,800 fps.....the difference is extremely noticeable in performance

I will add that I calculate the impact velocity at my anticipated impact distance and that is where I want to be operating in the bullets performance threshold.

So, I can launch a bullet faster than recommended as long as it has slowed down enough upon impact to penetrate, expand, and relatively hold together for the game I?m after.

Sometimes, it?s fun to find the bullets limit. Let the wheels come off the bus, as it were. The terminal performance results are oft rather........dramatic.

Franchise, I don?t know if the comment on colors was aimed at me, or not. But, I?ve never been accused of being colorblind, and it?s a bit tough to get a 450gr bullet to go much over 1200fps from a 4? barreled revolver.
Trapr

LET'S NOT COMINGLE SINGLE SHOT BULLET TALK WITH REVOLVER BULLET TALK, THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.

THIS!

I treat them the same, Regardless the cartridge or platform. So, for me, I see no difference. How fast do I need to push a bullet for it to work and do what I want. How fast CAN I push it before the wheel fall off? How FAR can I push it before it?s to slow to be effective?

Nothing changes in my mind. The end justifies the means.

At least from my approach.

Velocity can be looked at the opposite direction as well. In my reduced loads for family and friends, I want to know how slow I can launch a bullet to reduce recoil to the shooter while still having enough velocity to be effective at the anticipated impact distance. So, it?s not always about warp speed, but speed is always what I chase. Whether that be fast or slow.

FOR REVOLVERS, ANY FORMULA THAT GIVES MORE VALUE TO VELOCITY, e.g. SQUARING THE VELOCITY, IS WORTHLESS. I LIKE THE TAYLOR TKO FORMULA BUT I USED IT AFTER THE FACT RATHER THAN BEFOREHAND TO ARRIVE AT WHAT I WANTED. I WAS DEDICATED TO 454 EQUIVALENT LOADS AND TRIED TO GO AS FAST AS I COULD WITH 300 - 325 GRAIN .452 BULLETS. THE 475 LINEBAUGH AND THE 500 JRH MAY GO SLOWER THAN A FULL BORE 454 BUT THEY MAKE UP FOR IT IN DIAMETER AND BULLET WEIGHT.

That?s cool.

But, it?s working well for me, so must not be too worthless. I?ll stick with it.

👍🏻

The 500 S&W tops them all, besides maybe the 460 S&W when comparing revolver rounds ..yes, it kicks a little more, but nothing really noticable at all when shooting at an animal...the 50 Alaskan trumps the 500 S&W...velocity with diameter and weight is king when discussing performance...like the 445 tops the 44 and the 454 tops the 45 Win mag

What the hell are you guys talking about?

I think I took a right and you guys took a left.

😁

Who knows.....LOL.....I guess I'm trying to say that when you add velocity to a given weight bullet of a particular caliber, you'll increase performance...basically...LOL

I know the tko value of me throwing a can of soup gives a higher tko value than any rifle😀😳🙄

Until you use the right bullets. The jrh is a different animal imho. It drive biguns to a speed much faster than the 475.

I?m just stating how I decide on a load.

Push the bullet to reach a desired impact velocity within the operating speed of the bullet. Don?t see how that is ?worthless?. Too slow, it won?t work. Too fast, it won?t work.

I just answered the OP?s question on how I handload.

It works for me. Others are welcome to utilize different means.

LOL. I should've known when I started this thread. I guess we need to add this to the list of hard cast vs jacketed, XTPs in general, etc.

Zee...your very first response spoke to me. Admittedly I look at energy values but after your post I immediately researched a few bullets I really like in terms of what speeds are needed to initiate expansion. I then plugged in my muzzle velocities into a ballistic calculator to see what the approximate speeds were in 50 yard intervals out to 200 yards. I like your approach.

Franchise...yours too. If big and fast are good, bigger and faster are better. Sometimes it's disturbing how similar we think.

The most important number however is 110. 110 days till my elk hunt...

👍🏻

Randy, you're a smart, no nonsense kinda guy...no theories for me, just years of trial and error..I learned the hard way...I've done it, lived it, and love it...basic ballistics hold true, irregardless of weapon....You're gonna get a big bull Randy, I just know it

SPEED IS IMPORTANT AND THE FASTER YOU PUSH A GIVEN REVOLVER BULLET THE BETTER TKO VALUE IT WILL HAVE, AND THE BETTER IT WILL KILL, AS LONG AS IT IS UP TO THE VELOCITY.

MY REFERENCE TO GIVING VELOCITY TOO MUCH VALUE IN EVALUATING REVOLVER LOADS, WAS TO USING A FORMULA THAT, e.g. SQUARES THE velocity AND GIVES VELOCITY XTRA VALUE.

For me, muzzle energy is a poor measure of lethality. It really doesn?t tell you much of anything.

While TKO is interesting, I don?t rely on any formulas to help me pick loads. I determine what bullet I want to run, and push it as fast as it will RELIABLY go while still maintaining good accuracy. Revolver hunters need to be concerned about crimp pull, hence the emphasis on reliability. Since I don?t use bullets that are a compromise from a point of reliable performance, more velocity is the goal for maximum damage.

This is exactly what lead me to posting this thread. For the longest time I chased muzzle energy. Lately I've been researching this topic and trying to figure out exactly what it means. Meaning..."ok I see that I'm getting 2000 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle, what the heck does that mean exactly"? And ultimately I found the same answer you stated above...'not really anything'.

Muzzle energy is just a descriptor as is any formula. Per physics, it is a value that accurately describes the potential to do work a given object in motion can do. Nothing more, nothing less. I agree that when velocity gets over 1600-1800 fps things get interesting and much more damage occurs. I dont believe this is the result of just using single shot pistols. I can run 357, 41, 44 mag, 454, 475, 460, 500jrh and 500 smiths to those velocities and above out of revolvers. If the bullet will take it, dramatic things occur to the insides of an animal.


As was stated before, figure out where your bullet starts to work, where it works best and where the wheels come off, on your intended quarry. Or based on experience, figure out where you want to be and figure a bullet that?ll get you there and use that bullet.

Thanks Mark. Makes sense.

As stated muzzle energy is just a formula on paper and isn't really the end-all answer for "lethality" on a game animal.

However, some states use ME figures as a factor to determine if a cartridge is a legal method of take for certain animals.

And I find it even more interesting that for handguns, Colorado uses the energy figure produced at 50 yards.

I run ballistics charts on a lot of my loads or potential loads to see how they'd match up with my Nikon scopes' BDC reticles, especially with my straight wall cartridges. Also, I like to see what kind of velocities the bullets would be traveling at various ranges from less than 50 to beyond 200 yards, which is certainly something to take into account where I hunt. Never particularly cared about muzzle energy, though. It's not foot-pounds of force that kills game, its large holes through their vitals.

Muzzle energy is simply kinetic energy of the bullet when it leaves the barrel hence the reason for the squared velocity. Nothing in the name suggests kill potential or terminal potential, too many other variables play an important role.

I have found that the the maximum kinetic energy achievable in a particular cartridge tends to stay relatively constant when one hits max load for different bullet weights. Constant enough that I use it as one reality check when experimenting on paper or with Quickload and wanting to figure out which bullets will function to which range.
A critical part of this is the recommended minimal terminal velocity from the manufacturer or other shooters.