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Update on KY Elk issue #13258 02/15/2006 4:57 PM
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Gary Offline OP
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Yesterday I got to speak with Dr. Tina Brunjes about the issue of hunting Elk in Kentucky with handguns. According to Dr. Brunjes the regulation against hunting elk with a handgun was enacted when the state was about to hold it's first elk hunt in 2001 (this was before her time). The handgun regulation slipped through under the radar and was not really discussed at the time. The reason that this regulation is now an issue is because in last years rules the sentence about handguns was left out inadvertently. The proposal that caused this issue to now be widely recognized was because the KY officials are trying to correct the error of omission in the game law book from last year.

Dr. Brunjes was very open to handgun hunting and would like to hear from those concerned. She suggested that we contact the commissioners to voice our position too.

To all who have already contacted KY Fish & Game, we have done ourselves proud by being able to discuss the topic with them in a civilized and educated manner. Dr. Brunjes was very complimentary toward those with whom she has spoken.

She would like to have some sensible restrictions on the handguns that will be allowed. Later this week I am going to draft a letter providing my opinion on what would be reasonable. Currently there are restrictions on what caliber rifles are allowed for elk hunting as well as deer. Once I get a draft together I will post it on this forum for comment to be sure that I haven't stated something incorrectly.

We have a wonderful opportunity to correct this situation let's keep up the hard work and remember to be polite and have your facts straight when contacting the KY Fish & Game folks.

Gary


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Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: Gary] #13259 02/15/2006 5:51 PM
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nmhunter Offline
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Thanks Gary, Are you going to send her copies of the annual? If so, let me know and I will pay for them. Would it be feasible to send copies to each of the district commissioners? again thanks for your help
nmhunter (displaced Kentuckian)

Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: nmhunter] #13260 02/15/2006 6:12 PM
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KYODE Offline
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thanks much gary! is there anyway for us to sign it as a group?
i'm not really good at finding/knowing who to contact or call as far as the game commission goes.

i was jis thinkin of somewhat of a petition of sorts


Kentucky….no place like home.
Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: KYODE] #13261 02/16/2006 2:07 AM
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Gary Offline OP
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From the sound of it I think individual contact with Dr. Brunjes or the commissioners would be better than a petition because it is more personal. Would we have gotten the kudos from Dr. B. at the meeting last week if we had all just signed a petition. As for sending them magazine copies, I'm going to take care of that by sending Dr. Brunjes several copies and let her pass them out as she sees fit.

I worked with a KY resident today, who asked not to be mentioned by name, and we hashed out some language that will be forwarded to Dr. Brunjes and others at KY F&W.

Any handgun, with a minimum 4-inch barrel, capable of firing a cartridge of equal or greater muzzle energy than the .44 Remington Magnum and with a bullet diameter greater than .27 inches.


There was a concern on the part of some that cartridges like the 357 Mag. should not be allowed for elk hunting and I agree. The wording above includes everything from the .44 Mag. and up to any of the bottle neck cartridges that are currently legal for the rifle guys. And best of all it is said in one simple sentence. Obviously no wording like this is ever perfect but it was the least restrictive thing we could come up with while being, in my opinion, very reasonable for us handgun hunters. I mean really, who doesn't own at least one .44 Mag.


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Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: Gary] #13262 02/16/2006 12:59 PM
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Jtcsrvbi Offline
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I have been following this thread and I hope you are able to succeed! Your approach of civil, intelligent and well thought out information is the technique that more gun owners need to embrace!!!


Gun control! Hitting what you aim at!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: Gary] #13263 02/16/2006 8:29 PM
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bisleyfan44 Offline
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Gary, you might want to actually list the muzzle energy as a number that is specific rather than any specific caliber (44 mag). if you want them to consider the 44's energy as the baseline, then say it as 800 ft/lbs, 900 ft/lbs, or whatever. that would save a great deal of confusion especially in the field as the game warden has to determine what the energy of a 44 is to use for comparison. especially as there is a WIDE variety of 44 energies from all the different loads...from about 650 ft/lbs to 1200 ft/lbs or more. as far as the rest of it, i think you pretty much nailed it. i just think it would be better to state a number. everyone is doing an admirable job on this issue. let's keep up the good fight!


I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a handgun today.
Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: bisleyfan44] #13264 02/17/2006 3:36 AM
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Gary Offline OP
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I certainly understand your point but if they can't figure out what the energy of a 44 is prior to interacting with a hunter then why do we think they would be able to figure out that some other cartridge was more or less powerful based on its energy. This way, if all else fails, then perhaps they could keep a 44 Mag cartridge in their shirt pocket for comparison.

Seriously though, I hope that a LEO could determine pretty quickly whether a cartridge was legal or illegal by a simple visual inspection.


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Example language from CO big game regulations [Re: Gary] #13265 02/17/2006 5:12 AM
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elnor Offline
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Your proposal for the language looks pretty good, Gary, but I agree with the comments about listing minimum energy.

As food for thought, below is the language from Colorado's 2006 big game regulations concerning legal centerfire handguns for elk hunting (and deer, pronghorn, bear, and moose too for that matter). These rules would effectively require a 44Mag class or higher powered cartridge/handgun, but do so in a specific way that could be verified forensically if ever needed by KY F&G:

---example language from 2006 CO regs below---

HANDGUNS
a. Barrel must be min. 4 inches long.
b. Must use a min. .24-caliber (6 mm) diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs. at 50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.

here are the Oregon weapons restrictions [Re: elnor] #13266 02/17/2006 7:18 AM
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wapitirod Offline
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What Does it Mean to Hunters and Hunting in Oregon?
In 1995, Oregon Legislators adopted Oregon Revised Statute (ORS) 166.170 giving all authority to regulate possession of firearms solely to the Oregon Legislative Assembly.

In 2003, the Oregon Attorney General reviewed the statute and determined the Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission (Commission) cannot limit what firearms can be carried or possessed during hunting seasons.

In the same opinion, the Oregon Attorney General confirmed that the Commission has statutory authority to regulate where, when, how and by whom wildlife are taken by hunting.

All ODFW hunting regulations and Oregon Administrative Rules (OAR) have been modified to comply with these changes concerning the possession of firearms during hunting seasons.

The Commission still determines the season dates, open hunt areas, bag limits, and tag numbers for game species.

The Commission still determines the weapon type that can be legally used to hunt during a specified season.
Requirements for weapons used to hunt with are independent of any weapon(s) the individual hunter may choose to carry while in the field hunting. Regulations regarding when a person may hunt for a particular species also still apply. For example, these regulations state that it is not legal to hunt with a centerfire or muzzleloading rifle without a valid unused deer or elk tag for that time period and area on the person during eastern Oregon buck deer seasons and many of the standard elk seasons (see HUNTING PROHIBITED on page 13 for the exact rule language).

Fast Facts about Firearms Possession (pdf)

CENTERFIRE FIREARMS
SPECIES AND SEASON Rifle Handgun Shotgun (any barrel)
.22 cal. or larger .24 cal. or larger .22 cal. or larger .24 cal. or larger #1 buck or larger Slugs only
BLACK BEAR & COUGAR
General or controlled seasons YES YES YES YES YES YES
PRONGHORN
Rifle YES YES YES YES YES YES
Muzzleloader (slugs only) NO NO NO NO NO
NO
Archery NO NO NO NO NO NO
BUCK DEER
General or Controlled YES YES YES YES YES YES
Muzzleloader(#1 or larger buckshot. slugs) NO NO NO NO NO NO
Archery NO NO NO NO NO NO
600 Series Deer Hunts* YES YES YES YES YES YES
ELK
General or controlled rifle
NO
YES NO YES NO YES
Muzzleloader (slugs only)
NO NO NO NO NO NO
Archery NO NO NO NO NO NO
OTHER
BIGHORN SHEEP and ROCKY MT GOAT NO YES NO YES NO NO
WESTERN GRAY SQUIRREL Any rifle; handgun; shotgun; muzzleloading firearm; or long, recurve or compound bow.



OTHER WEAPONS
SPECIES AND SEASON Muzzleloading Firearm Archery
any .40 cal. or larger .40 cal . or larger; open or peep sights & open ignition any .50 cal. or larger .50 cal. or larger; open or peep sights & open ignition 40 lb. or greater recurve, long or compound bow 50 lb. or greater recurve, long or compound bow
BLACK BEAR & COUGAR
General or controlled seasons YES YES YES YES YES YES
PRONGHORN
Rifle YES YES YES YES NO NO
Muzzleloader (slugs only) NO YES NO YES NO NO
Archery NO NO NO NO YES YES
BUCK DEER
General or controlled rifle
YES YES YES YES NO NO
Muzzleloader(#1 or larger buckshot. slugs) NO YES NO YES NO NO
Archery NO NO NO NO YES YES
600 Series Deer Hunts* YES YES YES YES YES YES
ELK
General or controlled rifle NO NO YES YES NO NO
Muzzleloader (slugs only)
NO NO NO YES NO NO
Archery NO NO NO NO NO YES
OTHER
BIGHORN SHEEP and ROCKY MT GOAT NO NO YES YES NO YES
WESTERN GREY SQUIRREL Any rifle; handgun; shotgun; muzzleloading firearm; or long, recurve or compound bow.
* Except during 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restiction of shotgun/muzzleoader only or archery/muzzleloader only.
NOTE: Some hunts and areas have specific weapon restrictions; consult hunt tables and descriptions for other restrictions.


if that is to hard to follow here is the web page to view it on. http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/big_game/regulations/weapons.asp


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: Gary] #13267 02/17/2006 4:59 PM
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bisleyfan44 Offline
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i agree with your point gary. i'm just trying to make things clearer for everyone and eliminate ANY chance for ambiguity as to any particular cartridges energy.....whether it's a dnr officer or joe hunter trying to select his new elk handgun. as far as i know, all the various state regulations state a minimum in ft/lbs as a number as well as some stating bullet diameter minimums as well. just my 2 cents worth. btw, maryland's minimum for deer states 700 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and 6" bbl. length or longer.


I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a handgun today.
Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: bisleyfan44] #13268 02/17/2006 5:09 PM
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bisleyfan44 Offline
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you also have to remember as i pointed out in my first post that not all 44 loads are equal. ultramax has a cowboy load loaded in mag brass that runs around 400 ft/lbs....corbon and buffalo bore have loads that hit 1200 ft/lbs and more. where do you draw the line? can a ding-a-ling successfully argue that since his 9mm +p+ has more energy than one 44 mag load out there (ultramax) that his weapon is technically legal? not saying it would happen, but it could. so why leave the door open?


I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a handgun today.
Re: Update on KY Elk issue [Re: Gary] #13269 03/01/2006 4:09 PM
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nmhunter Offline
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KY game commissioners meet on the 3rd. The handgun/elk issue is on the agenda. Don't know what is going to be discussed but will keep everyone informed when news comes out.
nmhunter


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