 Newbe has questions for experts
#17266
11/27/2006 12:09 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97
encoreguy
OP
journeyman
|
|
OP
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97 |
I am not new to the Encore, but new to the handgun side. I have some questions for the experts. First I want a caliber for long range deer and coyote. In the factory barrels I tend to like 7-08 but think I would like a longer barrel like 16 1/4". I have decided on one thing though. I either want a barrel that I can use a rifle forearm or a custom forearm that is wider and flat. Would I be better to try and buy a bull barrel factory 26" barrel and have it cut to 16 1/4" which would then be set for a rifle forearm or would I be better to just go with a factory 15" and buy a custom forarm? Do I gain much more velocity in a 16 1/4 over a 15"? I just started reloading so any caliber is possible. I want a caliber that will cleanly take a deer at 300 yards. Now don't be concerned, I would never take such a shot without a lot of practice and only if I proved that I could do it every time. Probably never would take that kind of shot, but want to know I have the right caliber for the job. If I do the 26" bull factory option that only leaves me 308 and 25-06. What do you think of those? I see I can get a 6mm Ackley through midway in a bull barrel, what do you think of that caliber? Or do I simply go custom and if I do I have endless possibilities. If I go custom, what caliber would be your choice? Sorry for all the questions, but when I decide to do something I try to do it right the first time because I don't have money to burn. I don't mind spending money for the right fit / quality for the long term.
You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17267
11/27/2006 2:13 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
Distinguished Master
|
|
Distinguished Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512 |
eg,
A 7mm-08 will take deer at 300 yards given proper shot placement and bullet.
You will get around 40 fps per inch (little as 30 fps) of barrel.
If you have the money and want the best accuracy possible and endless options go custom. In other words, "cry once" instead of being frustrated with factory.
Having said that I have had 4 factory TC barrels and all would hold under 1" @ 100 yards.
Ernie the Un-Tactical 
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17268
11/27/2006 11:37 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 848
magman
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 848 |
If you wanted to do it right the first time. I'd go the custom route. Most factory barrels shoot good, but I have had 2 lemons that got sent down the road. Personally, I'd choose something in the 6.5 caliber as my one and only barrel. If you go with a company like Bullberry, you can get your custom barrel and forend at the same time. They synthetic forends with the hanger bar work great. In answer to your question about the 308 and 25-06, I think they would both be excellent cartridges for deer hunting out to 300 yards, if the shooter was up to it.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: magman]
#17269
11/27/2006 3:35 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
sglshotkw
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35 |
I agree the 308 or 25/06 both would do the job. The .308 has a little avantage of the other only because of available factory ammo and bullet sizes but thats it.
Custom would be the way to go, they can have to forarm holes drilled to handle a rifle forarm and then you could go with what ever you like (custom or factory).
KW
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17270
11/27/2006 7:03 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608
s4s4u
Shootist
|
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608 |
I've got 16" of .308 and love it. Might be the best all-around cartridge for a pistol. That said, coming soon are a .260 Remmington and .338 Federal to round out the arsenal. Should have all the bases covered then. You can load 125's in the .308 for 7-08 balistics, or 165's for hammer energy. Like I say, great all-around caliber. JMO, Rod.
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: s4s4u]
#17271
11/28/2006 1:44 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
Distinguished Expert
|
|
Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375 |
Quote:
You can load 125's in the .308 for 7-08 balistics, or 165's for hammer energy.
You may get 7mm-08 velocities with 125's in the .308 but you won't get the same drop or drift. The short and squatty 125gr .308 bullet don't have the same BC as a 120-ish grain 7mm slug and are way less than a good 140gr 7mm bullet. When stretching to 300yds, those items are very important.
Don't get me wrong...the .308 with the right shooter, right load and right dope for the conditions is plenty of gun for 300yds. The advantage to a 6.5mm or 7mm round is that the adjustments to correct for the shooting conditions are much less.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Dan B.]
#17272
11/28/2006 1:23 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608
s4s4u
Shootist
|
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608 |
That's one of the reasons I am in the process of adding a .260 Remmington barrel. I'm just saying if I had to settle on only one, the .308 would be hard to beat for an all-around pistol hunting caliber, for whitetails as well as other other beasties.
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: s4s4u]
#17273
11/29/2006 3:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97
encoreguy
OP
journeyman
|
|
OP
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97 |
If I go custom with a 6.5 do you get a 6.5 X 284, 260 ackley or what would be your choice? Do you feel that the rifle forearm has advantages or not over the standard pistol forearm?
You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17274
11/29/2006 5:38 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
Distinguished Master
|
|
Distinguished Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512 |
I would go with the 6.5-284 since there is such good brass and no fireforming.
Ernie the Un-Tactical
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17275
11/30/2006 4:20 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608
s4s4u
Shootist
|
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608 |
Quote:
If I go custom with a 6.5 do you get a 6.5 X 284, 260 ackley or what would be your choice? Do you feel that the rifle forearm has advantages or not over the standard pistol forearm?
Performance-wise they're pretty close, but as said, with several manufacturers offering 6.5-284 brass these days that would be the simpler option. I don't think that some factory offing is far off with the increasing popularity of the cartridge.
If you will be shooting off bags or a rest the majority of the time a large flat forend might be preferable. Holstering in field conditions, advantage pistol forend.
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: s4s4u]
#17276
12/01/2006 12:20 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
Distinguished Expert
|
|
Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375 |
Quote:
Quote:
If I go custom with a 6.5 do you get a 6.5 X 284, 260 ackley or what would be your choice?
Performance-wise they're pretty close, but as said, with several manufacturers offering 6.5-284 brass these days that would be the simpler option. I don't think that some factory offing is far off with the increasing popularity of the cartridge.
Not meaning to highjack encoreguy's thread but this may be information that he is looking for.
With the 6.5-284 in a typical specialty handgun length barrel (15-17"), you will see performance very similar to the .260 Remington in a rifle.
This comparison holds true for a lot of cartridges...a 30-06 handgun performs like a .308 rifle. A 6-284 handgun will be very close to a .243 Winny rifle. My 7mm/270WSM XP-100 performs slightly better than a .280 Remington rifle and even nips at the .280AI and 7mm Rem Mag in rifle length barrels.
So if you want to achieve the performance of a 25-06 in a handgun, you are kind of out of luck. Unless you build a custom .257" WSM (not WSSM). The actual performance you will see from the 25-06 in a handgun will look something like a .257 Roberts.
I think you would be right pleased with a 6.5-284 and getting true .260 Remington rifle performance.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Dan B.]
#17277
12/01/2006 3:08 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97
encoreguy
OP
journeyman
|
|
OP
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97 |
Has anyone tried the ott rounds based on the 243WSM case that I read about in one of this websites magazine? What are your thoughts if you have. I have heard that the 243 WSM has to be loaded rather hot to perform due to heavy brass.
You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17278
12/01/2006 4:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
Distinguished Expert
|
|
Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375 |
Quote:
Has anyone tried the ott rounds based on the 243WSM case that I read about in one of this websites magazine? What are your thoughts if you have. I have heard that the 243 WSM has to be loaded rather hot to perform due to heavy brass.
I did the original load development for the .270 OTTR and .338 OTTR. They are based on the .243 WSSM, not the WSM case...and the brass is very hard. The necks are super thick. They are neat cases and shoot VERY well. But I found that I was able to get VERY similar performance from a 7-08 w/ about a 1" longer barrel than the .270 OTTR. And not have to spend the time and components forming brass. If you got a .284 Winchester, you would match or exceed the .270 OTTR in performance.
I'd be kind of shy against using the WSM or WSSM cases in the Encore platform. They are much better suited to the stronger bolt action handguns.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Dan B.]
#17279
12/03/2006 2:55 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 662
Larry in SD
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 662 |
Just to add a little confusion to the mix, I have been working with a buddies 15" .284 Win. T/C Encore Handgun. This barrel started life out as a 15" 7mm-08, and was rechambered to .284 Winchester. My buddy used a Walnut Rifle Forend that a local Gunsmith shortened and reshaped for use on the Handgun. In the process the Forend was also Glass / Pillar Bedded.
We are using a loaded recommended by XP Hunter. The load consists of 140gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Hodgdon's H-4831 (we are using the short cut version) with Winchester Brass and Federal Gold Medal Match Primers. Accuracy has been good but not great (still breaking in the barrel) with most 3 shot groups running around 3/4" to 1". Muzzle Velocity is 2664 FPS.
With a Ballistic Coefficient of .485 for the 140gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and at 2664 FPS this round should provide all that is needed to cleanly take a Whitetail at 300 yards or slightly more.
So far this season Jerry has not dropped the hammer on a Whitetail, but we've got another week of season left now, plus another week of season in January for antlerless deer.
Larry
T/C Handguns, One good shot for your moment of truth !
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Larry in SD]
#17280
12/03/2006 3:33 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
Distinguished Master
|
|
Distinguished Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512 |
Sure can't argue with the 284 Winnie 
Ernie the Un-Tactical
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Ernie]
#17281
12/03/2006 8:06 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 662
Larry in SD
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 662 |
And one again thaks XP Hunter for the help in recommending a load for the .284. Jerry is finally happy with the performance of this cartridge I think. Now he just needs to kill something with it other than paper.
Larry
T/C Handguns, One good shot for your moment of truth !
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Larry in SD]
#17282
12/03/2006 10:52 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
Distinguished Expert
|
|
Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375 |
Quote:
........15" .284 Win. T/C Encore Handgun. This barrel started life out as a 15" 7mm-08, and was rechambered to .284 Winchester..........we are using a loaded recommended by XP Hunter. The load consists of 140gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Hodgdon's H-4831 (we are using the short cut version) with Winchester Brass and Federal Gold Medal Match Primers. Muzzle Velocity is 2664 FPS.
With a Ballistic Coefficient of .485 for the 140gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and at 2664 FPS this round should provide all that is needed to cleanly take a Whitetail at 300 yards or slightly more.
This is an excellent example of how stepping up one cartridge in size will increase performance. These are all 7mm rounds with similar barrel length in handguns and you can see the performance gains
7mm-08 (my data)....120gr V-Max, 42gr Varget, BC .386, velocity 2650fps
.284 (larry's data)...140gr NBT, ??gr H4831SC, BC .485, velocity 2664fps
7mm/270WSM (my data)...162gr A-Max, 63.5gr H4831SC, BC .625, velocity 2825fps
For actual field conditions and ranges inside of 400yds, the velocity's could be considered fairly comparable. But the advantage in stepping up each cartridge size is the a 20gr heavier bullet (along with added BC) can be thrown at the same velocity or slightly faster.
I'd put money on it that you would see the same relative data from a .260 Rem, 6.5-284 and 6.5WSM comparison.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Dan B.]
#17283
12/03/2006 2:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97
encoreguy
OP
journeyman
|
|
OP
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97 |
Okay, that being said, you have a b.c gain with the 6.5's do you think the 6.5 x 284 is still the way to go with them? What kind of velocity do you get out of the 6.5 X 284? Which 7mm would be the best duel round? I am not recoil sensitive, however if I can get velocity with the heavier bullets and it not be brutal that would be nice.
You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17284
12/03/2006 4:55 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 662
Larry in SD
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 662 |
XP Hunter will have to give you some stats on the 6.5x284 as I believe he has one (or maybe two) of that chambering.
As per the .284 Winchester, for me at least that is about the most recoil I want without a muzzle brake. The .284's recoil is stiff but not objectionable to me at least. I know others shoot cartridges that produce more horsepower (and recoil) but for me (again without a muzzle brake) this is about my level of comfort.
Larry
PS, Jerry (my buddy) had a HS Precision Pro 2000 in .284 Winchester also. In my opinion this Encore in .284 is slightly more comfortable to shoot (without a brake on either) than the HS Precision Pro 2000 was.
T/C Handguns, One good shot for your moment of truth !
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: encoreguy]
#17285
12/03/2006 8:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
Distinguished Master
|
|
Distinguished Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512 |
Quote:
Okay, that being said, you have a b.c gain with the 6.5's do you think the 6.5 x 284 is still the way to go with them?
You will get from 2650-2700 with the 6.5-284 shooting 140's.
For a 300 yard max on deer either is great-comes down to preference.
I always shot 140's with the 284 Win and that is also what I shoot with the 6.5-284.
Your better BC's for the 140 class bullets reside with the 6.5 bullets.
If I was to build a LR 284 Win (further than 300 yards hunting) I would be shooting from 162's-180's.
Recoil will definitely go up with these heavier bullets.
Ernie the Un-Tactical
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Ernie]
#17286
12/03/2006 10:43 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
Distinguished Expert
|
|
Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375 |
Quote:
For a 300 yard max on deer either is great-comes down to preference.
Really? I figured the 6.5-284 would be a good 400-ish yard deer cartridge in a SP. I had thought of getting a barrel for the Striker...but if you think 300 is the limit...I'll pass.
|
|
|
|
Re: Newbe has questions for experts
[Re: Dan B.]
#17287
12/03/2006 10:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
Distinguished Master
|
|
Distinguished Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512 |
I didn't mean 300 yards was the max, but his orginal question (his own limits-not mine) had a 300 yard personal limit for deer.
Ernie the Un-Tactical
|
|
|
|
|
0 registered members (),
122
guests, and 0
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
