This is a very interesting conversation to be sure. I will say this, I have taken rear angle shots but only with very heavy bullets that I know will penetrate to the vitals even from the rear and at close range. I have shot through several feet of critter with hard cast bullets. I personally believe you need to be relatively close so as to eliminate any misplaced shots that might only serve to break a hip and exit prior to penetration of the vitals. It also depends on the game being shot at. I would never shoot a bear from the rear because they will run until they are dead. Hoofed animals will run and lie down after a bit and if the shot was fatal you'll usually find them dead. The so called, Texas heart shot, is a last resort for me and I certainly will let em' go 99% of the time if I can't get a clear shot at the heart/lung area. I NEVER take head or neck shots and would choose a center of mass even a rear angle shot over those every time.

Let's try to not judge others too much from their comments. We don't know what their skill level is compared to ours. I know some fellows on here that have killed elk with a handgun at over 600 yards and that is waaay beyond my current capability. However, they are quite skilled at LR shooting and I don't consider their actions unethical because they have put in the time to perfecting the art.

We could make the same judgements about iron sights vs. scopes or short barrels vs. long ones. Hell, the fact that we even choose to hunt with handguns is considered unethical by many uneducated long gun hunters.

Very true Gary, but the guy on the show made the conscious decision to take a poor shot, I feel this is where the fundamental problem lies. Then to top that off the decision is being defended as if it were the right one because the animal being shot at is a varmint. Am I missing something here?

You can not fault someone who makes every attempt to get in the right position for a clean shot and misses...we all have been there; but to deliberatly take a poor shot for any reason is an incomprehensible act and lasting scar on our sport. When people in positions of power who are on the fence when it comes to hunting and legislation there of, see something like this it's all they need to pick a side real quick and usually its not ours.

I will yield to your assessment of the show and the situation. I cannot comment because I didn't see it, though I too have seen what appeared to be less than ethical shots at game on TV shows. I have also been privy to some situations that will never see the light of day and I can only say that outdoor writers and TV show hosts/guests are probably representative of the overall population sample of hunters in general from a statistical standpoint. There are those that will do things that are less than sportsmanlike and there are those that will not. I have a close friend who didn't realize it was illegal for his son to hunt alone because of his age. His son was hunting on their property and killed a nice gobbler. He was really torn about whether to turn himself in to the game warden or not and called me to ask advise. I felt like it was an honest mistake and said to let it go. His son wasn't aware it was illegal and I saw no reason to diminish his trophy. I know I hunted alone from the time I was about 12 years old. I have no idea whether it was illegal at the time or not. I had a hunting license and intended to use it but times are different in many places than they were when I grew up and rules have changed, not necessarily for the better.

Revolverlution, I totally respect your opinion. The one thing I have learned in like is that you are not going please everyone all the time. I also can not go around in life worrying about it. Do I care, YES! I couldn’t go to sleep at night if I didn't.
As for your comment, my Uncle took over my Grandparents place, 900 acres. My Cousin owns and operates 1100 acres and they are both professional farmers. When your lively hood comes from the land you have a different perspective than others. They carry rifles around in their trucks and shoot any pig on sight. They go threw great means over eradicating pigs on their land. My wife even had discussions over this in her college classes when she was working on her undergrad AND masters in Animal Science. Yes, it is a big enough problem in Texas that Texas A&M discuses how to deal with and manage pigs. This is not just a small problem, it is an ecological one.

“It’s quite a sobering reminder of those in our ranks. Sometimes I cringe at even being associated with the hunting world.”

That is your quote and the truth be told, so do I. Look over at Dan’s post and you will see some of my reasons. One reason Gary alluded to is that we are scrutinized and held to a higher standard already because we choose to hunt with a handgun. If we make a bad shot or just wound an animal we are criticized. If a “hunter” (rifleman) made the same shot they would be looked at differently than “us.” Taking it a step further, I process what I harvest. I have been laughed at by farmers because I just didn’t let the pig lie.

Revolverlution, thank you for talking to me. We may not understand each other, but I appreciate your professionalism. If you have any more comments, please feel free to express them.

BTW, in my first post I hope I made my self clear. I stated that I never saw an of the discussed footage and was totally basing my opinions on my geographic location. Growing up on a farm that shot all the red wolfs because they were killing 4-8 goats every night and shooting pigs because they would root up a freshly plowed wheat field might put my view in a different perspective than yours. I am not saying that my opinions are more validated than yours, I am just saying they come from a different viewpoint.

I never said I didn’t want to be humane, I just said that if I had a shot at a pig that I was going to take it.

When I turned 12 (42 years ago) I took my hunters safety course. They taught us to shoot at not only heart and lung shots, but they also taught head, neck, spine, and shooting for the tail of the spine ( which is the Texas heart shot of course).
I have read books by all those hunters that we wholed up has hero's Page,Keith, even Pope and Young. They all have written on how they took a shot at a straight away animal. Pope or young I dont remember shot a Grizz that way with his bow. These guys I would put into the Ethical class. I know that I always try to take the broadside shot, but there has been times where they weren't shot in the exact spot I wanted and I had to shoot them again. I feel this is up to the hunter as what is ethical and what is not. I feel that you shouldn't demean another hunter because of how you feel about it. Just my 2 cents. And I also was taught to shoot tell it goes down. Kill it as quick as you can, the more lead the more shock the faster they die.

I keep seeing the issue of pigs coming up and I think that again it is perspective. Here in Oregon we are starting to get a population of pigs in several areas and the position of Fish and Wildlife is "Total Erradication", they want them dead and they don't care if you shoot them or run them over, just kill them and kill all of them and to reiterate how even biologist look at certain animals I had to pick up a permit to trap a problem coon and the biologist told me once I had it to throw it in a garbage can full of water and put the lid on so I didn't bother my neighbors with a shot. There are some basics to ethical hunting but everything has to be taken in context and in perspective.

TCMan I must have misinterpreted your post for that I am sorry. I read it as though you shot the pig while running, hit it in the guts and said oh well there's more. I am not arguing the shooting of varmints if destroying peoples way of life. I agree that they are an ecological nightmare. Heck...I would love to be able to go to some of the places down there and shoot some myself. The point that I was trying to get at I feel was stated above in my response to Gary. I don't mind if the hunter does everything in his power to make a clean shot and misses. Its those who decide to take the poor shot on purpose that bother me and do a diservice to our sport. I totaly agree that the pigs should be managed. We are developing a substantial population of our own wild pigs here in Michigan. A guy down the road from me shot 6 this yer alone. Our DNR is on the Eradiaction path as well and believe me if I get the chance I'll be eatin' pork chops.

Gary, I agree that the shows probably do depict a statistical percentage of our sporting body but we have control over what can/should be shown to the viewing public; we don't have control over who joins our ranks be they good or bad. I feel the editors who dedcide what is to be shown should show the best even though that may not be the whole truth. I am poking the bees nest here but I feel we need our best foot forward and let them search around a little for the bad or less appealing one or maybe even true one. I realize the good and bad go hand in hand in the real hunting world but showing shots like that, wounded game running off etc, does our cause no good. I think the outdoor tv shows have done sportsman in genral more harm than good. It places us front and center to those who do not neccisariy understand what it is to be a hunter then leaves them to thier own conclusions. I feel that to be a dangerous situation. My wife is a good example, she is a non-hunter (not an anti-hunter) and when she watches shows on tv with me she cringes more times than not and comments "Thats what you do for fun? You call than fun?" I then explain to her that killing is not the goal when I hunt. It's the experiences of sight and sound that drive me, not the kill. If I harvest something its merely icing on the cake. Its hard for people without an outdoor background to make the connection and I feel thats where we have the disconnect with the public at large. Sorry to get off topic, I am a creative writer by training and when the words flow there is no stopping them...I apologize.

Revolverlution, I made a comment that wasn’t very clear and I should have elaborated more! I took a shoot at a running pig, and then I spent 2 hours looking for it. I was even tracking it on my hands and knees threw the brush. To be honest I am guessing were I hit it because I never found it.(I guess what I am saying is that if I didn't care, I would have never even tried to look for it.)

I am glad that our ethics are at such a level that we want to hold each other to a higher standard. As I stated earlier, I am glad this is being debated. In my eyes that means that we care enough to not only give a darn, but to express concern. And for that, I don’t think you need to apologize to anyone! My hats off to you!

Duane

Around here people would tell you there are no unethical shots on pigs. The hunt them from choppers with shotguns(buckshot). Chase them down with dogs, knife em, pistol them then burn em in a big hole!!!! I've even heard of people taking .22 to there deer leases down in South texas to shoot the pigs and Javelinas that come to the feeders in the gut to run off and die. I know people say it's just a hog, but just thinking about that kinda makes me kringe, but I know the damage they can do to a rice, corn, or milo field!!! Complete eradication in Texas is useless!!! Hogs reproduce so fast, live anywhere, eat anything. Ten years ago around my house there were no pigs. Now they are everywhere!!! On the Texas parks and wildlife gamewarden field notes on farmer went as far as putting a huge amount of corn by his ricefield and lacing it with some kind of poision. He got in trouble when the buzzards started dieing from eating the poisoned hogs!! I don't farm, but I can see where the farmers are coming from sort of!! Most hunters look at them as some good lean meat!! Heck you can only kill a few deer, but as many hogs your freezer can hold. It's your life, do what you want. As long as it's legal!!!

TCMan thank you...mine is off to you as well. Those long tracking jobs sure can be miserable in a lot of respects.

piwonka...read some of the prior posts. We all agree they should be managed, the crux of the problem lies in the fact that some people willingly take poor shots just because something is considered a varmint which is not acceptable. Go a head and shoot all the pigs you are allowed but don't for a second take a questionable shot just because they are considered a varmint. Classification by the DNR has no bearing on being an ethical land manager and hunter.

Hey here's a novel idea...we should all somehow organize a benefit hunt down south somewhere to do a little damage control for the ranchers and maybe benefit a charity of some sort. Here in Michigan we have the annual traditional bowhunters bunny hunt that benefits St.Judes Children hospital. Might this be a plausable idea?

we all want to impose our thoughts on what is ethical and humane; go back and read hell i was there.

The shot first described is or was close to the "Texas heart shot". When used with enough bullet, it one of the most devastating shots made on game. I too hunt for meat and have used this shot on game animals with great effect. Is it my shot of choice, absolutely not; will I take it every time, again, absolutely not. I have four kids at home to feed and will take a deer when the opportunity presents itself, sometimes that's the only presentation.

I didn't see the show but I wouldn't have taken the shot discribed by you. I grew up bowhunting so shot placement was the only way. When I got into handgun hunting a freind at work that has taken lots of deer with an contender .223 told me that the most deadly shot with an handgun is a shoulder shot. The reason behind this is handgun loads are slower and don't expand as easly,hitting bone will help in the expation of the bullet. He has exparamented with handguns for at least 7 years. He has killed lots of deer with his contender. Im not lending info but asking if this advice is good. I do not belive in taking poor shots. I take everything that I see on hunting shows I take with a grain of salt, but belive Ruger makes a good gun and will continue to support them.

I too am purchasing a Ruger and have heard both arguments on the shoulder shot and will not go there...I will say just stick with the basic broadside and there is not a deer alive that will be if you do so.

bluecow...I don't understand your comment...you were on the show we are speaking of or am I way off base?

what bluecow is referring to is the Elmer Keith book "Hell I was there'

Oh got ya thanks...

I don't like the shoulder shot either. I am thinkin that I would rather take the heart or the double lung shot(like bowhuinting) This would be a topic of discussion, as I am trying to learn as much as I can about the handgun hunting thing. I would never take a bad shot, I would rather pass up the animal.