New topic for those who thought all the points to the discussion on the hard cast hunting bullet was already discussed. So far, almost all discussions on penetration relate to momentum, speed, bullet shape etc... The point is the physics that relate to the bullet.

Would like somebody with more knowledge of physics than me, (basically none), to talk about the laws that govern the mass that is being hit, the resistance to the bullet. It was mentioned breifly in the hardcast thread.

As a large slower moving bullet penentrates an animals mass, it makes a hole, (da), and mass flows around the bullet, allowing penetration.

Crank up the speed a bit and the mass reacts differently. The bullet also makes a hole, (da), but the mass does not have time to flow around the bullet and offers greater resistance. That's why there is so much bloodshot meat, sometimes quite a distance from the actual bullet hole. The mass's resistance to the bullet is greater and it does not so readily flow around the bullet. That's why when two bullets with the same energy hits, the heavier slower bullet may penetrate more.

I understand the concept from some of the writings of Veral Smith. I loose the concept a little when large non-fluid objects are hit, like bones.

Which of the laws of physics apply to this reaction of the mass being hit, or do they? It is definitely a concept that I would like to understand better.

simply put bullets that are moving faster have and do deliver more energy to the target.the faster an object moves the more resistance it will encounter to passing through matter of any kind.Faster bullet will cause a larger diameter wound than a slower bullet of the same size. as far as penetration faster bullets may NOT penetrate as far as slower ones because they expend more energy trying to push through the target at higher speed.Bullet pass through is not a goal for effective kills maximum energy delivered to vital orgins to cause stoping damage is.pass through is wasted energy.the most effective shots i have used while shoting game did not pass through they delivered all their energy to put down game.Using a biger gun with more power and having the bullet pass through results in more tracking in my experience and possable lost game.idealy bullet expansion speed and weight should be balanced for the game being hunted to deliver the best performance.

pter1020k, I have to disagree with what you have said about the use of a more powerful cartridge results in more tracking and loss of game. I also disagree with you when you say that bullet pass through is not a goal for effective kills. Here is why.

In addition to hand guns and several other rifes, I use a 300 WSM model 70 with 180 grn Accubond bullets at around 2900 fps for hunting. This caliber and load delivers far more velocity and penetration than needed for whitetails and unless taking a texas heart shot, the bullet zips completely and easily through the animal like a hot knife through butter. In the past two years, I have killed two deer with this load, both under 70 yards. One was a 150 lb 8 pointer and the other was a 120 lb 4 pointer. The 8 pointer was hit broad side, smack in the middle of the heart. He made it about 20 yards before his front legs gave out and then plowed another 10 yards and was done. The 4 pointer was hit broad side, just on the top of the heart and through both lungs, and went straight down. Both shots were complete pass throughs with a permanent wound channel of apprx 1-1.5" in diameter.

Last year I also took a 120 lb doe at 60 yards with my 50 cal TC Omega, using a 240gr shockwave sabbot at around 2300 fps. She was hit broad side, right dead center in the heart, an identical shot placement to the 8 pointer taken with the 300 WSM. The doe took the hit, flew/jumped back 6 feet and hit a tree, spun around and took off faster than I've ever seen a deer (wounded or otherwise) run until she went out of site. She ended up going about 110 yds before expiring. Upon skinning that doe, I realized that only small pieces of lead/copper had exited her, leaving only 2 or 3 very small holes in the skin. This meant that almost all of the energy was deposited in the deer. Much more energy and bullet expansion/fragmentation had been expended on that doe using the 240 gr sabbot (less powerful caliber) than the 8 pointer using a 180 gr Accubond ("bigger gun with more power"). I and other hunting buddies/family members have had the EXACT same experiences using these two calibers and bullets.

I will agree with you that when a bullet passes completely through an animal, there is wasted energy. But energy is not what kills an animal. Bleeding caused by vital tissue damage (either by direct contact with the projectile or indirect contact such as a temporty wound channel) is what kills an animal. If a bigger more powerful caliber means more tissue damage and bleeding, than that is what I will be hunting with. That will be the more effective killer.

Lastly, I most agree with your statement, "Idealy bullet expansion speed and weight should be balanced for the game being hunted to deliver the best performance." This is very important and should always be taken into account.

Didn't want to get into which kills better, faster, spectacular, etc... I've taken a lot of game with a lot of combinations with a lot of different reactions to being hit and they all tasted good in the end.

I was actually hoping to see some math/phyisics or whatever on how the mass reacts. Is there any kind of physics formula for objects moving through mass or the like similar to the formulas on bullet energy?

First. let me set the record straight, Energy does NOT TRANSFER is a collision. Energy is transformed into other forms of energy, mostly THERMAL. Momentum transfers. Remember Newtons 3 Laws Of Motion Momentum, Momentum Transfers and Acceleration (velocity). Notice that Newton's Laws Of Motion do not deal with "Energy Relationships".

When shooting a soft solid (Muscle, vital organs, wet pack, ballistic gelatin, etc) the faster a bullet impacts the greater the amount of momentum that is transfer early. This means a larger wound channel, but can result in less penetration than the same bullet slower. Case in point Clair Reese wrote about a test that Barnes bullets conducted shooting 2 identical 24" long blocks of ballistic gelatin at 100 yards with a 30-06 and a 300 RUM. A chronograph was set up in front of the blocks to record impact velocity and another chronograph set up behind the blocks to record the exit velocity. Both the 30-06 and the 300 RUM shot the 180 grain TSX bullet. The 300 RUM exited the gelatin with a mere 47 FPS and the 30-06 exited with 241 FPS. This clearly shows that had the blocks been longer the 30-06 would have penetrated farther. What happened, why did the 300 RUM exit with less velocity? The answer is because the faster bullet transferred more momentum early and created more hydraulic pressure, because of the increased speed in the collision and created a larger wound channel.

Hey guys, if it's any consolation, I've had deer drop on tehspot from my 535gr arrow and broadhead in the lungs quicker than with my 300 win mag in teh sme general area. There are too many factors involved to make generalizations. I've had deer stand and look at me when shot with a 44 hard cast semi wadcutter and I've had them do back-flips and nose dives with the same load. The only Elk that dropped dead on teh spot was from my 15" Encore 30-06 and a 180gr balistic tip. Every other one reacted to the shot and run, bleeding all over. Personally, I want a cartrdige and load that will provide full penetration so I have a big hole on each side of its body and bleeding from both of the holes. That's just me, and that's why I am a fan of heavy for caliber bullets in my big game handguns.

+1... Good Post

My exact sentiments! That is why I use 420 grain WFNs in my .475 Linebaugh for EVERYTHING. Two holes every time......

JWP

Lets compare two cartridges with roughly the same energy, the 222 and the 44 magnum. The 222 with it's fast and light frangible bullet transforms all of it's energy upon impact on a deer sized game. It may blow a large surface wound with minimal penetration. All of the energy is transformed into heat or hydraulic pressure. In the case of the 222 and a large surface wound, the deer may absorb the energy and run off to an unknown end.

The 44 magnum with the same energy, is moving slower and the energy is transformed throughout its path, allowing deeper penetration. It does not create as much resistance. Little bloodshot meat right up to the hole means little was transformed into hydraulic pressure.

I am in no way comparing the killing effects of either. Just trying to understand the logic for what I and most everyone here on this forum already know.

Thanks

Does this help any? Going back to KO factors.

http://beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

I know this is silly, but bullet construction also plays an important factor when talking about smaller diameter bullets. But that is hard to input into a calculator or formula. On the other hand, it is also very hard to argue with a half inch hole.

the only way to really get to the bottom of this is to talk to an actual physicist or possibly a physics professor. There are way too many variables and that is why there was such a debate before but the bottom line is my 3years of physics 20 years ago does not qualify me as an expert nor does reading a book from an author that was written as a non text book. Such books are subject to the authors personal interpretation of the sciences and can even be clouded by a personal agenda to sell books. This science goes beyond Newtons laws as those are only the basis for quantum and classic mechanics and it's more recent interpretations. Unless I've missed something no one on this site is truly qualified to definitively answer these questions and a resistance to optional lines of thinking have made discussion futile.

Physics are one aspect of the equation and the variables that go into it are mind boggling for most of us, myself included. I always seemed to end up with 2 unknown variables in my physics equations and never really conquered the more complex problems oh so many years ago. The factor that is impossible to measure is the individual animals will to live. That variable is one that no physicist can measure or predict which is why this seems to be such a large matter of disagreement. Cape buffalo are notorious for their ability to soak up lead — so it goes for American elk too. The caribou is similar in size to the elk but from my understanding can be killed with relative ease by a very modest cartridge. Yes all will eventually die from a well placed shot but what happens in the interim is wildly variable and will never be solved and probably not even understood by a physicist.

And textbooks are not clouded and do not contain agendas? I am going to have to disagree with you on that.

E x V x W x D / (M + DS)x DI = Energy expended on this thread.

+1

The funny thing about books is that there are several deferent types. Everything from dissertations including facts and findings covered in research and development to books that are compiled by multiple authors, (experts in their fields,) to educate and inform over a particular topic. Just as people have personalities, writing styles WILL mimic the author’s personality and bias’s every time. Just read the wonderful articles written by the users on this sight, they are each like a thumb print if you know the user.

In the music field, LOTS of theoretical ideas can be debated with both sides having substantial evidence to support theories. But that is because there is always multiply ways to analyze a piece of music. By George… I think I see a similar situation unfolding here. How about that!!!

If you don’t beleave me look up the book “Holy Blood, Holy Grail.” A book that was full of “mysteries and conspiracies presented as fact were rather concocted by the authors.”
I am sure I don’t need to tell you about it but here it is.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Holy-Blood,-Holy-Grail

Just because I have a piece of paper on the wall, (a diploma that says I have a performance degree in music,) that says “I am smart” doesn’t mean I know which end of the horn to play threw. It just means I had enough money and will power to pass classes. The same goes with publishing a book. Anyone with enough money can publish a book. It is the data inside that gives the book merit. Not who it was written by. Sorry Gents… I am going to have to go with Rod on this one.



Off topic and politically influenced! From here on out read only at your own risk.

Funny thing about books… they are written men who are sinners. Sometimes they make mistakes for one reason or another. I had several books in college that the Prof. blatantly said, “skip this section” because he knew / disagreed with the content. In short… the last time I tried walking on water, I got wet.

Sure, that's the prerogative of a professor. He decides the curriculum and what you should and shouldn't read. At least that was my experience in college.......

What were we talking about again?

If that is all you got from that you missed the point entirely.

We were talking about

OR


If all you got, (or more importantly agree with), was the professor decides what the curriculum is going to be (the author of a book in this case) you missed the point he/she also determines what we should or shouldn’t study (the context of the book.) Which just solidifies my point of…


Lest face it. If we believed every writer out there every one of us would have the latest whiz bang out there because our old one wasn’t good enough.
It is the same principle Jack O’Connor used to make the 270 what it is today. The 270 however survived the test of time.

You misunderstood me. That was the only part I decided to respond to. My head hurts after a certain point, and I choose not to delve too deeply in the subject at hand........ Call it being tired after a VERY long day........

While we all have our favourite beliefs, the reality is that the science is incredibly complex. Some (many) years ago the Defence Dept in my country employed a team of PhD mathematicians, biologists and physicists to look at the related problem of 'stopping power'. Years later no conclusive findings.
Apart from anything else, probability also plays a major part. Was the heart chamber pumping out or in at the instant the projectile went near it? Has a flat of muscle pulled across the wound chaneling and prevented bleed out. etc.
In the end, use enough gun (whatever you think that is), place your shot carefully, and be prepared for Murphy to do his thing!

I never dive into these threads b/c I believe that regardless of what projectile you launch at a game animal, short of a 20mm cannon, the above statement imposes too many "what if's" into the "equation".




In light of what I posted above, I do just as Hunter4752001 suggests, say "the heck with science" and use what I consider to be "enough gun".

And I would add, shoot as much gun as you are capable of accurately and consistently shooting.

Now....can I lock this one also?!

Here in Colorado I usually hunt for deer and elk at the same time and I also do not know what hunting situation will confront me. I have shot cow elk at 10 feet and a bull at 265 yards. I know what my muzzle energy is and that is it. I do not know what it will be at the distance that the shot presents itself. I maintain that I want to use as much gun as I can handle effectively. My 400 grain projectile may be going the "ideal" velocity at 75 yards but what about if I get a 150 yard shot and everything feels right to make a clean kill. The physics of bullet velocity, construction, and weight are known. Hunting situations are always variable for me. I go with the big guns. They are best in all situations for me.

Not on my account!

My perception is that this post may be mellowing out a bit but I may be wrong.

Recoil

****** BEATING A DEAD HORSE ************

Ya See...NOW YOU GUYS DID IT!!!!

When it comes to physics and bullet speed and penetration...to me, it boils down to inertia and Newton's Third law...equal and opposite reaction...18 wheeler traveling @ 25 mph and a pinto traveling @ 25 mph...going through a brick wall...which is harder to stop???? Which will penetrate MORE??? Now, since we are talking about softer material...maybe this may change somewhat...Newton's laws are LAW...will happen VIRTUALLY everytime...but this maybe more of a fluid dynamic physics problem...many more variables come into play..PLUS...I don't know about you guys...but I'm sick of reading about .44 mag loads shot through JELLO!!!! I like JELLO...leave it ta heck alone...shooting through flesh has too many different types of mediums...hair...skin..blood vessels..subcutaneous fat...blood vessels..muscle fascia...blood vessels...organ fascia...organs..and that's just going in...maybe coming out there are some bone in there somewhere, etc...you guys get the point ...now don't get me wrong...i love reading ballistic stuff...come on ...I'm a guy...and a man of science...and I love breaking stuff

HOWEVER, after thoroughly reading this post and others..I'm starting to think that all of this stuff is a waste of our time...we should be discussing vectors...different scenarios/shooting variables that may/may not cause different trajectories..cuz if we are using responsible/adequate ammo for the game we are hunting...we should all be getting the penetration we need to do the job.... we should all be at the range throwing lead.....making sure our shots are hitting where we need 'em ...
Now who's with me???

And who wants J E L L O ? I know I do

My 2 cents...no disrespect to anyone...you are a great bunch..and wanted to tell ya'all of my epiphany

Thanks for tuning in

C

I hate JELLO...it's a texture thing.

Enough!

Please keep the thread on topic as well. Geeez!

Pudding...now that is some good stuff....mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!!

OK...now I'll relock it!