I posted this awhile back here but didn't get a lot of feedback on it.

Has anyone shot their rigs at 200-300 yds. using iron sights? I've often wondered just how well one could do with these rigs. I'm thinking about doing some experimentation with applying the front sight as a rangefinding tool and reference for LR shooting trying to get 1st shot connections using minute of angle calculations, just like a ballistic reticle or tgt. turret in a scope.

The IHMSA guys shoot irons to 200 meters. Most of them dial the rear sight for each distance.

I remember reading that Elmer Keith had gold lines on the front sight of his revolvers for holdover on long range shots.

That's exactly what i'm talking about Dale. I mean suppose a guy were to measure his front sight and knew the dimensions as closely as possible at 50 or 100 yds. If u ran a ballistics program for your load u could just aim the front sight up to the required MOA to get to whatever range u may want to. i.e. suppose u knew the sight was 20 MOA top to bottom (about 20 inches at 100 yds.). If u run the ballistic program for your load u see that at 300 yds. the bullet drops maybe 10 MOA from zero, so just aim 1/2 the way down the front sight (10/20=0.5) and maybe hit a 300-yd. tgt....right?

The lines like Keith used would be great. U could measure them in inch per hundred yds. amd use them for rangefinding as well.

I wonder what Keith would've thought about this computer technology stuff?

Years ago there was an article called Shooting Your Pistols Accurately At Extremely Long Range on the sixgunner.com (the site no longer exits) by Ed Wosika. It went into a lot of detail on Elmer Keiths techniques and the authors "revised" methods to dial a handgun in for long range shooting. I don't know if the article is out there on another site, but it would be worth looking for.

Thk. U sir!! I will look into it.

In a way adapting Keith's system to modern technology should be very much like using a 1x scope with a ballistic/rangefinding reticle.

Well. one way to do this is with a micrometer rear site, ala Quigley.

My UAS 7mm-08 has a globe front sight with crosshairs and a rear micrometer peep sight, just a larger hole. But it does have a click elevation wheel one could do as your saying.

And S&W HAD an adjustable front sight for their silhouette specials that had adjustment.

Larry
Tinkerer

I have come across a few of these on the silhouette models. They turn very hard, usually hurts your fingers.

Appreciate the info guys. I'm just wondering what could be accomplished by using the mathematics with the front sight system. As soon as i can get the time, i'm gonna find out.

Couldn't locate that article but i will try and see if somebody on the internet might have it. Any suggestions?? Be interesting to talk to Mr. Wosika to see what he's come up with.

Well if you have a 12" sight radius each .001" would be .3" at 100 yards. So if a 300gr 44 bullet drops about 7" at 100 yards the compensation on the front sight would be .023"

100 yards, 7" drop, .023" of adjustment

150 yards, 20" drop, .066" of adjustment

200 yards, 40" drop, .133" of adjustment

Dale, i think in minutes of angle, or inch per hundred yds. Here's what i just did. I just measured the front sight on my Chipmunk Silhouette Pistol i just bought. The distance from the bottom to the top of the front sight is 0.2825". The distance between my eye to the front sight is 33" from sitting or .917 yds. So that measn that at 100 yds. the front sight will appear to be 109 x 0.2825 or 31" top to bottom, meaning that i have 31 inch per hundred yds. of adjustment. Now using the same drop figures u have at 100 yds. 7/31= aim 20% down the front sight for a hit, and 20" drop at 150 yds is 13 inch per hundred yds. so aim 40% down (13/31). 200 would be 20 IPHY so aim 60% down for a hit. Does this sound right?

100 = 20%

150= 40%

200=60%

Hows about 300 yds? Maybe 80"? 80 would be 27 inch per hundred yds. so 27/31=90%

Do my calcs. sound right? Haven't shot open sights in a loooong time so i'm not sure if the math is right?


Rangefinding would be easy. A buck antelope is supposed to be 15" back to brisket, by my calcs at least. So at 100 yds. he would occupy 50% of the sight, at 150 he would be right at 30%.

If my downrange zero calcs are right then a guy could get a custom front sight marked in 3 10 minute of angle increments similar to Keith's system.

Ok finally found this article after googling it. Been ahwile but never thought to google it--

http://www.fiveshot.org/guests/longrange.htm

Seems like what he's doing is just using a MOA-type system like a multi-stadia reticle. I got a place to shoot rabbits this year and am gonna try it with a Crickett 22 Mag. pistol, and maybe get a different front sight, like what he suggests. I'm gonna divide the sight's length into 3 parts using 2 horizontal lines, and just try using the mil-ranging formula for rangefinding and downrange zeroing. Worked for him--what the heck!

WTG sscoyote, thats the article! Its good to see the article didn't die with the site.

The Elmer Keith school of thought is that you hold the front sight up in the rear sight. The gold bars are not exact increments for certain distances but as reference marks so it is easier to use the same amount of front sight for each shot. I have 2 gold bars on my 45 colt Bisley Vaquero and they work great provided you dont tinker with your loads.

Most rear sights have a gap of .125" and most front sights are .125" in width. If you are running a load at 1200fps or so a square hold over, or holding about .125" of the front sight over the rear is pretty close to right for 200 yards. You must get used to a particular gun and load, find a distance that you get to know the sight at and then add or subtract front sight depending on range estimation and hits that allow you to "walk" your shot onto the target.

Long range shooting is the greatest test of a six gunner, it takes a lot of dedication, ammo, and practice. If you marry yourself to one gun and one load it gets easier. Playing with a lot of different guns does not help this game but it is great fun learning to shoot.

There is a 5 part video on Utube by Chad Mathis on longer range sixgunning that is very well done. Look it up it is well worth the effort...

Thk u sir!! Will do!

good luck with this project, anymore I'm not steady enough even off the bench for those ranges but it sounds like your on the right track. The one time I shot at 200yds seriously was with a factory SBH that I had done a trigger job on. My step dad and I were at the range and he was on the lane next to me which was 200 yds shooting his 220 swift and when he got up to use the facilities I walked the bullets up and I was on the paper on the third shot and the next three were all on the paper. When he looked through his scope to shoot he didn't know what to think sinch here were all these holes punched through his target that were obviously way to big for his gun. The guys at the range that saw it couldn't believe it but don't think I could do that now.

Thks. Rod. Looking forward to trying this out some. The guy's system is about as accurate as i think anyone can get with an iron sight system as he is able to resolve ~2" adjustment at 100 yds. that's pretty amazing to me. It looks like he's approachnig it mathematically in a MOA-type system like u would see a sniper use. The thing it though is that he wrote the article 20 years ago before laser rangefinders and were out and before ballistics programs were in common use. It's gonna be interesting to see what can be done for 1st shot connections using all these resources together. Can't wait to test the system, as soon as i can figure how the angular mathematics matches his calcs. Should be able to rangefind using the front sight and then match the front sight marks in MOA to a ballistics program--we'll see.

I think i have the equation nulled out. He gives the formula for sight radius vs. front sight height vs correction at 100 yds, and sure enough it's a variation of the mil-ranging formula as i had suspected it might be. Now all that's needed is bullet drop at any range and it should be easy to calculate "little clicks" as he refers to it.

I wonder how far this guy would've gone if he had access to a laser rangefinder and a ballistics program for 1st-shot connections.

I've shot a lot of IHMSA silhouette matches over the years. One thing that I will throw out there is that click adjustments can be very temperamental. For example, my click settings for given gun might be something like the following: Chickens = 16 clicks up from dead bottom, pigs = +1, turkeys = +2, rams = +2. That may work 90 plus percent of the time, but changing light conditions and mirage can really play hell with you when using open sights at longer ranges. I have found that I can vary as much as 2 clicks either way at 200 meters on any given day. This isn't offhand shooting, this is prone in what we always called the "dead frog" position. Imagine sitting cross legged and then laying back and resting the gun across your knee. Lots of support, so short of sandbags its about as steady as you are going to get with a handgun at those ranges.

My point is that while you may be able to use mathematics to calculate the changes needed for a given range, the real world conditions are going to require some experimentation.

FYI - note that I used the phrase "dead bottom" above. I always standardized my setting that way. Screw the sight adjustment all the way down from my 50 meter setting and counted the clicks so that I could easily return to that setting. After a while and lots of sight adjustments, "dead bottom" may drift a bit. IE - you may be able to turn the adjustment screw one or two extra "clicks". That can also play with your settings, obviously. solution is to somehow mark your "bottom" point. small drop of paint, tiny scratch mark etc.

Good points Stush.I have shot a lot of IHMSA matches also and your comments are right on .Open sights on a day with scattered clouds can drive you nuts,every time the sun goes behind a cloud your sight setting changes .Two clicks at short range isnt much,but at 200 meters its a miss on a ram. The angle of the light ,over your left shoulder ,or right plays hell with windage too.

I'd almost forgotten about the IHMSA guys. Thanks for the heads up on this. Are any of the iron sight IHMSA guys using this kinduva' system? I don't know anything about handguns beyond SP's honestly. I've only rarely shot SA's or wheelguns.

What i'm saying though is that at a certain long-range that system should get u on target or at least closer than guessing. It should save rounds at least. U know i started to think about this stuff a while back when i was in a gun store and looking at some of the front sights on pistols. A buddy of mine and i are shooting coyotes at long-range and we talk about the mathematics of LR shooting a lot. His wife is a cop and we got to talking about the shooting incident that happened in CA many years ago when the armed guys robbed the bank and gave the cops a fit for quite awhile. We were thinking that if 1 of these cops could maintain control and had some sort of system he might very well have been able to range the guys head with his front sight, and then put a round into his head at a hundred yds. or so. At least they may have been better prepared if they had been practiced at handgunning at longer ranges. Just an armchair discussion the end result of which is this investigation...?

I always click adjusted my sights shooting IHMSA. Just holding up a bit of sight wasn't precise enough.a bar across the front sight would be a good reference though. I am not sure how well you could set it mathmaticly though, as everone's eyes are different about the way they see things. Top and top for me may not be the same for you, the difference I think would be the way we precieve light.Sounds like a good experiment though,and a decent excuse to the warden to shoot more,I am doing an experiment honey; honest he, he, snicker, snicker!