There are a lot of good and experienced handgun shooters as well as experienced handgun hunters on this Handgun Hunting Forum. Let us gather information from our and others actual hunting experiences and also rely on good old "PHYSICS" and "ANATOMY" to help.

First off, I have cast many many a bullet for my handguns, including .357 up to the .500 Wyoming Express, and in different weights in each caliber. And this means that I have shot them quite a BIT in my various revolvers.

AND, I have also bought and shot many hundreds of jacketed bullets in my handguns.

And a small percentage of them have been shot at (and hit) animals. And if anything comes from this experience, I can say this: "Every situation and animal is different, and in the long run you would be wise to go with your experiences, as well as tempering them with the experiences of other hunters that have killed a lot of DIFFERENT game with handguns, and also being in alignment with physics and anatomy."

By this I mean, in the practical world of a big game bullet hitting an animal, assuming good shot placement, you would want:

A. Penetration

AND

B. Sufficient damage done to animal anatomy to produce rapid bleeding and internal destruction of vital organs;

and POSSIBLY:

C. In some cases, major bone breakage/skeletal damage to put the animal in a "physically compromised mode," as to where the chance of retaliatory action from that animal is minimized; as in the case of "Dangerous Game."

The basic argument of cast vs. jacketed seems to be in the case of a hard cast bullet:

QUOTE: "What needs to open? They're already a half-inch thick ;-)".

This from a shooter of a .475 Linebaugh or it could be equally applied to me; I shot this buck with a cast bullet from a .500 Wyoming Express:
Article Link

Lucky or not, mine was a very clean kill.

However, another handgun hunter had an entirely different experience on a cow elk with "the .44 magnum and cast bullets for testing in the 44 magnums that consisted of about 100 grains of pure lead on the nose of the Lyman 429421 mold." Now take note, this guy even TRIED to get more of an expanding bullet!

Continuing on with his story: "Of the seven initial shots, they fell in like this.....The first shot did hit home in the point of the front right shoulder exiting out about midway back on the left ribcage. The second shot entered the brisket about 4 inches from the first shot and traversed through the body lengthwise. This bullet may have exited after I've looked back through the pictures but I'm not entirely sure. Two other shots exited the right shoulder about 3 inches apart...I was out of breath, about 200 yards from where I started, my gun was smoking, and I was out of ammo. It was terribly embarrassing to shoot that many times but I was not going to let her get out of sight. I just couldn't figure out what happened from the beginning."

NOW,If you ask me, that is dismal killing performance, even though most of the bullets penetrated completely.

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HUNTERS that believes in a handgun bullet that not only penetrates but EXPANDS is very solidly based on the PHYSICS side of HYDRAULIC SHOCK caused PRECISELY by that expanding bullet; whether it starts out at .300" or .500". Yes, expansion is STILL a huge positive plus on even a .500" diameter bullet for a quicker kill.

The simple answer is: why the argument? If you want penetration (and not necesarily a clean kill...yes eventually ANY animal with a half inch hole through it in the right place WILL die) for the bone breakage, then go with a cast bullet. But on lighter game, where the expansion is definitely a plus;

QUOTE: "...they will not reliably open at xxx velocities. The 275 gr Speer Gold Dot is one of the exceptions. I use that one for deer..."

Then I ask: why shoot yourself in the foot and handicap yourself with a hard-cast bullet that penetrates all the way through but has no hydraulic pressure effects and leaves little to no blood trail? And usually does not kill very quickly? When if you chose a jacketed EXPANDING bullet (yes, even in .500 caliber

it WOULD produce a quicker kill?) Are we, as ethical hunters, not stewards of the animals we hunt, and therefore responsible to kill them as humanely as possible?

This post is not raised to anger anybody, but just to get your feedback, like I said at the VERY BEGINNING OF this post.

Think it out: no need for macho egotism here, just what gets the job done most ethically.

Very nice post Gregg, I find myself currently revamping my hunting line up as I'm now in a Lead Free zone.

I have never really liked Cast Bullets for hunting, unless we talk traditional muzzleloaders, so have always gone for expantion and shock. Mostly because I have not had anything I felt was big enough to do the job with hard cast. Yes I want a .475 linebaugh in a single action for just that reason

However now than I'm stuck with lead free hunting that is out of the picture.

Personally I would be very embaresed to not have a quick kill. I have, and will, pass if I can't get that shot to the best of my ability. I think that was a major reason I ended up on the single shot side of things. It forces you to take care of that shot, you can't spray and pray, like so many seem to be accustomed to with their autoloaders (used to be one of them...).

On the flip side, as a cook, I lothe wasting good product from massive shock that some bullets seem to create. Also knowen as Magnum-itis (Mostly aimed at rifle shooters) for game that is not in need of that kind of power. Here in central CA the deer are not much bigger than german sheapards, with horns. Using a 7mag on them to me is just a waste, can't say how many I've seem blown in half by this kind of shooting. Yes the deer died very quickly (a good thing) but so much was waisted (VERY BAD THING). So I do place a power limit on myself to balance out waste vs power.

I'm a meat hunter, getting the big one is not my main consern, nice if it happens though

but I'm after that mid size with great tasting meat that isn't to beat up from fighting and hard life issues. A clean fast kill leaves that meat in as good a shape as you can ask for. If the kill takes to long the stress the animal goes through damages the quality of the meat. And lets face it, we all want that bugger to be tasty

Which leads me down another line of thought, lead contamination in the meat from explosive expantion, as well as from hard cast shaving off in the channel. Not fully sure that copper is any better but I like to think there is less of it shed off, thus less contamination... But thats another issue...

So in retrospect, I'm going to continue converting to No Lead systems for hunting with a good balance of power vs damage...

We shall see what the next piggy has to say about that

Very good Gregg, this topic has become heated in the past because of extreme views one way or the other but the fact is both types of bullets have their pros and cons but both can will kill anything. A premium jacketed bullet out of a sufficiently powerfull revolver will kill a brown bear just like a hard cast will. The cast may penetrate further but as you said the internal damage will probably be greater with the jacketed bullet. As they show more handgun hunting on the tv hunting shows you can actually see some of this. I watched one guy dump a bull elk with one shot from a 460S&W with factory jacketed ammo, I also saw a woman dump another bull out past 150yds with a 454 and Nosler Partitions but then again I watched another well known hunter drop a bull bison with one shot using a S&W 500 and the factory 440 cast ammo. I figure if it works for you use it and share your experiences but to insist one is so much better than the other that you shouldn't even consider it is ridiculous. I shoot hard cast and jacketed and I take two things into account, the game I will be hunting and the accuracy of the loads and honestly jacketed bullets always seem to shoot tighter groups in not only my revolvers but my lever guns but I still have a couple of guns that I use nothing but hard cast.

I would argue that at handgun velocities we aren't experiencing hydralic pressure in any meaningful amount irrespective of the type of bullet we are using.

Shot placement is still the most important factor when hunting with a handgun, rifle, or howitzer, but that assumes your bullet reaches the vitals. We can all agree on this point I am sure. From experience, I have seen on enough occasions to cause concern, jacketed expanding bullets fail or come close to failure because they broke apart. That is not good enough for me. I don't want to wonder. I want to know that no matter what direction the animal is facing me, I can punch a hole clear through and reach the vitals every time.

There is a pretty significant difference between a .429 caliber and a .475 or any of the various .500s out there. Can the .429 benefit from expansion? I believe it can and does, particularly on thin skinned game. I am all for using hollow-points and soft-nosed jacketed bullets on deer. Sure they have a strong will to live, but they aren't particularly hard to kill given their thin skin and relatively light construction. I have even used them on small hogs and they work fine.

Personally, I am of the two-hole school. I expect an exit and I want the animal to bleed from both sides -- they tend to die more quickly and are a world easier to track if need be. That said, I always load my handguns for the worst case scenario -- that way you are always ready for whatever you encounter in the field or whatever shot angle presents itself. I don't like to taylor loads to game as they tend to leave you wanting with other game. I tend to find my load early in load development -- the one load that will take squirrel or mastadon, and stick with it. I pratice, practice, practice with it to ensure complete familiarizing and sight the firearm in with that load. That way, I am never guessing. That load cannot be an expanding bullet for this reason -- my own self-imposed rules dictate complete penetration on all game -- essentially. Load for the worst case scenario, and you will be ready for everying and anything.

On the destruction of tissue issue, I necropsy each and every animal I kill. I study the effects of my bullets and I can assure you that the WFNs from my .475 don't zip through game with minimal damage. They wreak a trail of destruction between holes and break bones with aplomb.

Hope I didn't miss anything. Excuse my rantings, but it's early and I am only just starting my second cup of coffee.......

I shoot jacketed bullets most of the time for 2 reasons #1 I get better groups out of the jacketed bullets and #2 they shoot cleaner in my guns. Now beyond that the larger 200+ lb critters I have shot with these jacketed bullets (85% are Hornady XTP's) the bullets have gone all the way through or were hung in the skin on the back side of the animal. The bulk of these bullets were 1.5 X the fired diamater and had close to 90% weight retention. So with all that said I just do not understand what a cast bullet will do for me other than reduce my level of accuracy and get wax all in my gun.

JMHO

I respectfully disagree entirely. How would you explain a baseball sized hole in lungs that I see from expanding bullets out of my 454? I've never seen that from a cast bullet but it's typical of a lung hit with a JHP. The spike elk I shot recently had a very large primary wound channel as well as radial tears in the lung that were probably 4-5 inches long outward from from that primary wound channel.

X2 ;-)

Nice post Gregg.

So far, we have a pretty good collective of valid opinions already. Of course, points have been made that we can all agree with. There are also those that we differ about. But I went back and read your post several times as I was reading the responses. I like to do that so that my response will be pertinent to whatever questions you may have asked,(actually it's because I suffer from CRS

) and I believe you wrote you would like to see responses based on experience, physics, and anatomy.
Experience:
Experience tells me that I can not only shoot accurately, but also humanely kill deer and black bear sized game with "both" hard cast and jacketed softpoint bullets. As is typical of New England deer hunters I steer clear of any hollow point type bullet for big game.
Physics:
I once shot a big fella (Whitetail that is) with my .54 caliber blackpowder rifle at close range through the boiler room. He spun around to his left and took I don't remember how many bounds, and crashed to the earth face first about 30 more yards away - dead as Julius Ceasar. The bullet, of course as you would expect from that rifle at that range, went in one side and out the other. Upon dressing I found that I had missed the heart. The bullet had passed very near to it though, and the heart suffered obvious physical damage. Contrary to one opinion, and in agreement with another, I strongly suspect that the big, slow, non-expanding 430 grain cast slug had generated a tremendous amount of hydrostatic shock to a large portion of the chest cavity, shredding the lungs, stopping the heart, and killing that big boy before he knew he was dead.
Anatomy:
Unless your talking about hunting primates, and those of similar build to human beings, it has always been incredulous to me when fellas compare the anatomy of any big game animal to a human being and in turn make a "qualified" statement assimilating the damage a bullet would do to each. (I have seen that here in this forum - recently!

) Know the big game you are hunting, and judge how to best cleanly take it based on that game's anatomy. Experienced fellas know this and practice this rule even on game of the same family. I would expect to adjust my methods when switching from shooting whitetails to moose. Both native to my state, both in the deer family. Incidentally, if asked to choose the one bullet I would use to stop a bad guy DRT, it would be a .45 caliber hollowpoint. Not exactly the bullet of choice amoung most level headed big game hunters when hunting big game. (both brainless as well as wily bad guys have told me that the bullet they fear the most is a slug from a .45!)
Experience, Physics, and Anatomy - With a good dose of common sense:
Experience has taught me that if I put a heavy hard cast or jacketed softpoint bullet through the brain, neck, chest cavity, or even close to the liver of any whitetail or black bear that lives, it will die quickly and humanely. BOTH have proven to me an unbelievable will to survive, even though I have been fortunate enough to drop most very quickly. I do not believe that I myself could take the thumping I have dished out to deer with both cast and jacketed softpoint bullets and not drop in my footprints!

Came in from hunting to make a sandwich and check the forum. Now it's back to the hill with Blackhawk and 6 Speer Gold Dot 270 grain jacketed soft points. (Yes - I'm still at it! Seeing does but Mr. Big has not been following.)

Renster

All right Gregg lets be fair if you are going to judge this single hunt as a failure of a cast bullet lets look at 2 other elk killed on the same hunt.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=69831&sid=675f61fdb524b5ba65f698ec48f9673c

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=69982

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=69822

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=70038

They were both one shot, through the lungs, with similar sized bullets at similar speeds and both elk died within a few steps.

Glenn's elk was that last elk killed and had been run around the ranch for 4 days by this group before he was able to get a shot at the elk. She was pumped up and nervous has heck, something that tends to make the elk tougher to kill. Glenn shot her at 90 yards and saw the bullet hit 130 or so yards behind her at a weird angle (he thinks it vered off exiting the animal at the last minute as just before it exited it clipped the front shoulder bone on the cow) so he hit her with 4 more shots as quick as he could. It was in fairly heavy timber and he wanted to make sure she died a quick and humain death. All told the first 6 shots were taken in under 6 to 8 seconds. I have spoken to great lenght with Glenn about this hunt. The 7th shot was in the back of her head to make sure she was done within 30 seconds of the 1st shot being fired. If he had just fired a single shot and given her a minute to die she would have died with in a minute or two but he did the right thing and kept shooting as long as she was standing. Something we should all do on elk no matter what we are hunting with.

I can hardly call this a "failure", elk are tough, you and I have spoken at lenght about how no 2 will die the same. Some are basically bullet proof. I killed one bull with a 300 mag and a 180gr Partition at 150 yards. I took the top of his heart off and both lungs and yet he ran over 800 yards through steep, tangled country, up and down a gully so steep I had to pull myself up by the trees. They are all tough we know that.

My issue with jacketed bullets is they can and do fail at times. Cast bullets can too but it is a rare event, they don't "come appart" or shed jackets. I shot a elk that had been hit by a truck in the back of his head to try and put it out of its misery. The range was 8 inches or so and a 230gr Hydrashok from a 45acp failed to get through the neck bone and into the skull! I had to put another between the eyes to kill it. I know the ammo was not matched to the game but it should have managed to kill a elk at 8".

All bullets can and will fail from time to time I feel the odds of a hard cast bullet failing are way less than a jacked bullet.

I will keep shooting hard cast bullets from my revolvers until I have evidence that they are failing me. I think the idea of a soft nosed cast bullet is great for thinner skinned game such as deer and antelope.

I have nothing against jacketed bullets but I like hunting with bullets I cast, its parts of the fun. Besides my good friend Dick Thompson who put that whole trip together has killed 27 elk with cast bullets from 15 yards to 168 yards and has never lost a elk, nor recovered a bullet. They were all shot with cast bullets from 41 mag levels to 480 Ruger levels, they have always worked for him and have never failed. That says a lot...

I never said there wasn't any pressure, but the hole in the lungs will be largely determined by where the animal is in its breathing cycle -- if the lungs are full of air, the bullet will produce a larger hole -- same thing happens with the heart. More tearing and tissue damage will result.

Accuracy from a premium hardcast will not take a back seat to any jacketed bullet. Don't confuse cheap, bulk bought lead bullets with good hardcast, they're not the same.

Gregg Richter: "yes eventually ANY animal with a half inch hole through it in the right place WILL die"

Fowler: "lets be fair if you are going to judge this single hunt as a failure of a cast bullet"

I did not say it was a failure. I said "that is dismal killing performance" and it IS.

You misunderstood me, and possibly my whole post.

Gregg I guess I took it a little off of your intended direction and I appologise about that. Reading Glenn's post it come off different from the story he tells in first person.

We know every animal is different and if you shoot 100 elk exactly the same way you will still get a lot of different reactions. The idea that a jacketed bullet is always better than a cast bullet for accuracy is simply not true. I feel jacketed bullets are more consistant due to their meing machine made and so you take the human element out of the equatation. But cast bullets casn be exceptionally accurate. Heck I know guys who have shot sub 1" groups on demand with cast bullets at 100 yards with the right bullets and guns. Most cast bullets are not capable of that accuracy but then very few jacketed bullets can ether.

I will never look down on a handgunner who hunts with jacketed bullets, they certainly work. And if matched to the game animal and gun they work very well. I mean that a standard 250gr XTP fired from a heavy loaded 454 is not a good match and is asking for crippled game, the FA bullet or the XTP MAG bullet is designed for the higher velocities and is a far superior bullet in that gun.

I have always been of the wanting a exit hole mentality with big game. The exit hole allows more blood to excape and more air to come in and that is kills game. Would a expanding bullet kill faster? Maybe, maybe not there is no way to tell. I don't believe that energy kills, I believe destruction of vital organs kills. So a smaller nonexpanding hole that goes all the way through a animal is more consistant than a hole from a expanding bullet that stops well short of a exit. So a expanding bullet may exit but it can not be counted on right? Also what happens if you do the unthinkable and wound a animal? Now you sneak back up to your wounded elk at 100 yards away, its about to step into heavy timber again and possibly be lost. It stops and looks back at you leaving a butt shot to kill it. Will your jacketed bullet go through a elks rear ham and the guts to get to the vitals? I like the odds of a heavy cast bullet better than any expanding bullet...

The philosophy that an exit wound allows an animal to bleed to death is the same as the bow hunting philosophy. Gun hunters know that SHOCK is what makes the one shot kill. A large, heavy for caliber, expanding bullet provides more shock. Hands down, unless you are shooting a brick wall or a tank. A full metal jacket or hardcast is great for penetration on an elephant or hippo, but there is NO north american game that is that tough. The largest of bears are not made of hard cement, but spongy muscle. I know shoulder blades are hard, but lets get real... There is nothing in north america that my 376 Steyr Competitor with a heavy expanding bullet want provide enough penetration or cause enough blood loss. Just read Mark Hampton's book, he's an experieced handgunner who favors expanding bullets. An elk is not that tough, their flesh is soft, if a rifle in 30/06 is great for elk , why not an expanding bullet in something in the .375 range or larger. Think of the pencil effect, a hole that lacks shock. There are many african professional hunters that hate full metal jacketed bullets on anything other than buffalo or larger. If you look at the disected carcass of an animal shot with a good expanding bullet, you will see it causes more damage/shock than a straight hole with no expansion. Just my opinion.

That's true regarding pointed or roundnose FMJ or solids, but much less so when we are talking a bullet with a big meplat.

Great post and great points.


I disagree with the theory that shock kills animals -- the destruction of the vitals kills them, not shock. Poke a hole through the heart or lungs, or score a CNS hit, and you have a dead animal. I have shot game with rifles that "generate" 6,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy and they didn't even react to the shot an yet they get rocked by my handgun with its poor paper ballistics. If there was some shock effect, surely the big rifle would generate it, no?

I think your right whitworth but expanding bullets spend energy in the anamals .

For me this says it all

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1339&ppuser=2724

The other thing that makes a huge differance is what it hits on the way through.

The one above hit a sholder bone.

I have had 250's in the 45colt at 80+yds blow through like the wind.

I never recover my hardcast bullets and that really says it all for me! LOL!

By this I mean, in the practical world of a big game bullet hitting an animal, assuming good shot placement, you would want:

A. Penetration

AND

B. Sufficient damage done to animal anatomy to produce rapid bleeding and internal destruction of vital organs;

Wow a very elegant writer for sure .

I read your story of the deer you shot with the 500 Wyoming and was amazed that you even posted it .
You shot a running deer in the Butt ,just left of his his bung hole and high.
Now that is shot placement for sure ,at least you hit a lung although you did not hit any other Vitals.

""As I approached my deer, I noticed the entrance hole of the big .500 lead bullet. It was just left of the tail, up fairly high. Upon field dressing, I located the hole of the 425 grain lead slug where it entered the lung cavity, without ever disturbing the stomach or intestinal area.""

As for the performance of a cast bullet .
I like you have some experience . I have cast and shot over 30,000 rounds through my 500 S&W PC Hunter alone not counting my 460,44,357,38,9x18 ETC and that is not counting my rifles which I also shoot cast in.

Not all cast bullets are equal . A hard cast bullet will open up at the correct velocities but not a super hard cast .
Here is a picture of a .500 DIA 440 Grain Hard cast 20 BHN after it went through both lungs of a full mature Bull moose .The moose dropped in his tracks , not one step forward
The 440 expanded to a full 3/4" and still has the gas check attached .

I took a black bear at 77 yards right through his heart with a 700 Grain WFNGC .The bear did a back flip and was dead when he hit the ground .No bullet recovery at all.

Have killed many black tail deer on Kodiak with my 500 and not one walked away . Most were thrown sideways and dropped , no runners.Caribou,hogs ETC same results and all with cast and all died with in feet of being shot.

So you are right shot placement is key and I can honestly say I have never shot any animal in the corn hole .



I look forward to reading all the responses , looks like a split.

RR

When an instant one shot kill takes place, it is the central nervous system that is over stimulated and goes hay wire and shuts down. Lets say you take a heart shot on a deer and it falls dead instantly. It is the brain and nervous system that shuts down before the body relizes that the heart has been destroyed and can no longer pump blood. If it was just organ desruction and not shock the deer would have a heart attack instead of falling over with all systems shut down. If someone uses a large caliber bottle-neck rifle round in a pistol they will get complete penetration on most all north american game irregardless of angle, just ask anyone who shoots a 416 JDJ, 416 Barnes, 475 JDJ. I doubt if there is anyone out there that would say a 500 gr. Woodleigh SP in a 475 JDJ wouldn't penetrate and leave a hell of a blood trail on any of north americas largest game. I have shot several bulls on our farm that were lame and needed killing, and on all I used a heavy for caliber big bore round with expanding bullets, giving complete penetration. I doubt that anyone has killed any bear, elk, boar, or the like that weighs 2200-2400 pounds. In the USA only the Bison is this large. I agree if you shoot something small like a deer a big bore round may give little more affect than a 30 cal., but a deer, and an elk is a deer, was not meant to be shot with something that generates 5000 ft. pounds of energy.

When an animal dies of blood loss, it dies of shock.

shot placment makes the deffrens thats why bow hunters have sucess i like cast and i like a good expanding bullet .cast for big game . but all deer size like it to exspand.

No, it bleeds out. Pressure loss, cardiovascular shuts down, no oxygen to the brain, and the organism dies -- no shock.

CNS is the only true "lights out" shot, but that's not really the issue in this discussion.

pop.pop..pop.popopop..pop.pop..popopop....popop......ding ;-)

Need proof animals die from vital organ destruction?

Well archery is very effective at killing game these days, I have seen videos of many many deer and elk that died within yards of where they were shot. There is NO energy transfer from arrows to game but broadheads are very effective at destroying the life support system of big game animals...

Ask any ER doctor if the femeral artery is cut and before you Bleed Out if the body goes ito to shock. Loss of blood pressure and the like causes the body to go into shock. SHOCK - to cause one to undergo a physical or tramatic extreme sensation to the body. If this isn't shock, and I don't mean electricution. What is shock? Isn't shock exteme trauma that causes the central nervous system to fail to function.

This debate could go on for days, with neither side changing its point of view. Both sides are right to a point. Keep on hunting and lets all try to see the others point of view.

I am "this guy that tried to get more out of an (expanding) bullet".

The original post that you are quoting Gregg is wrong in one regard that I've never bothered to go back and fix. The whole sequence of events took place in about 20-25 seconds and the distance covered was less than 100 yards total. I've talked at length about this with Mr. Dick Thompson that could see this unveil through his binoculars when i did the shooting. As far as the performance of the bullets, I was and still am VERY IMPRESSED. I will just say without getting into shear numbers, that I have a very substantial amount of experience with bullet performance on deer size animals. I've tested just about everything out there at all different velocities in various calibers. Most of my shooting has consisted over the years of 300 Winchester and 300 Weatherby rifles before I got into handgun hunting. I will say that the damage done internally and upon exit with these cast bullets was more substantial than any I've seen with the rifles mentioned. In fact, I just spoke with Mr. Dick today explaining just how impressed I was with the bullets after I finished cutting all the meat up yesterday. I've lost a decent little buck one afternoon years ago because I put a "good" hit on it with a 300. I had a chance to shoot again but didn't because I knew it was good. well, 400 yards or so later and across a creek, someone else killed it. My shot was just a tad high and he bled like crazy but not enough to die evidently.

Fowler is right, the first shots were over in a matter of seconds. She was dead on her feet but I was not going to stop hitting the shoulder until she was down. Was it necessary, nope but I'd do again tomorrow if the scenario played out in the same manner. As one that likes to put an animal down as quickly as possible, I feel that I did the right thing. Until I was sure she was down, I kept pounding the front end. I'm sorry but you will never convince me that a jacketed bullet would have performed better than what I experienced. To clarify, all of the shots penetrated completely. One went through about 4 feet of elk and busted the back legbone on the way out. I've shot a many a deer with jacketed bullets and I don't know of but a few that "MAY" have been able to perform in that manner. A cast bullet will rarely "fail" in my opinion. The exit holes out of the offside shoulder were nearly 1.5" wide and were about 2.5" from each other. The first shot did enter the front of the right shoulder and exited about midway back on the ribcage on the offside. Upon exit, the bullet must have glanced off one of the ribs causing it to strike the ground well out of range of where it should have on a straight pass through. The second shot is the one that entered in the "hollow" between the brisket and the right front shoulder. this bullet traversed the elk exiting low just in front of the hindquarter and busted the right left leg. These shots were at approximately 90 yards and were both through the vitals. She pumped out a bunch of blood in the short distance that she traveled. To call it dismal killing performance I think is a very opinionated statement without all the information at hand. I'm not mad about the statement by any means but I don't feel the same as you obviously.

As far as why did I choose to shoot a soft nosed cast bullet. I don't consider a hard cast bullet to be an "expanding" bullet as you stated in the original post. With a softnose cast bullet, you get the best of both worlds. you get the initial expansion for the "upset" that you want when the bullet hits but if the nose sheds, it doesn't really matter because the other shank of the bullet will continue to penetrate and usually always exit. I like two holes, they just bleed better. Now, back up the the article of your's that you linked. I've talked with you about that buck on the phone and I'm glad that it worked out for you but I would not have felt comfortable with the shot you took personally, ESPECIALLY if you had happened to be using a jacketed bullet. I've just had WAY too many PREMIUM bullets shed jackets and turn into fragments. To take a marginal shot like that one with a jacketed bullet in my opinion would be very questionable. The only thing worse than having a buck jump and run after a very long stalk would be having one jump run and be wounded. Luckily, this didn't happen and I would credit a lot of that to the bullet that you were shooting, the same shot with a lesser bullet could have had an entirely different ending.

Each bullet has its positives and negatives. But, my personal opinion is that the cast bullet and even more, the softnose cast bullet have less shortcomings than the jacketed slugs.

Here is a photo of the exit wounds on the front shoulder of the cow...

I think we are arguing semantics at this point......

You are right man. Take Care.

I shoot hard cast most of my calibers. Primarily for the reduced costs? Depth of penetration is something I've always appreciated.
Steve

Well I'm new here, just joined tonight when I noticed smoke coming out of my keyboard! I'm sure of one thing, my opinion won't sway anyone's mind on this hot button topic, its like Chevy's & Ford's, no middle ground.
First off, there are some outstanding jacketed bullets on the market today, much different than when I was a young GI stationed in Texas in the 60's, you either shot Speer 1/2- 3/4 jacketed slugs or.....you shot Speer 1/2- 3/4 jacketed slugs, it wasn't until Lee Jurras happened along that you could really depend on a jacketed slug to accomplish much, especially on game bigger than deer. Now there are a fair amount of good, jacketed slugs out there, some will give both expansion & penetration, most won't deliver on both counts, except on broadside shots.
To me, just my opinion, there are 2 things that must happen, first is location, you have to hit them right, I've watched antelope run for miles with a leg blown off from a 300 Weatherby. The second is penetration, if you have both with any common sense load you are going home a happy man.
I read 2 things that really sent up a red flag, first was, it was a dismal failure! wow! Down & out in less than 30 seconds, complete, COMPLETE penetration & also great, GREAT expansion. On an elk thats in the neighborhood of 800 lbs with a good blood trail & down & out in, maybe 100-125 yds, what more do we need. Lets go back, good hits, complete penetration & great expansion, am I missing something?
The other red flag, elk aren't hard to kill, thats even more amazing than the first statement. I've taken game in many states including Alaska & also in Africa, anyone that thinks elk aren't tough needs to tell all of us what animal that size is tougher?
I won't bore anyone with details but if I listed the last 25 big game animals I've shot, all with cast, I could swear under oath that none traveled beyond 50-60 yds, this is with revolvers, not single shot pistols & includes moose, elk, bears, lion, african game, pronghorn, tough feral hogs.....& badgers!
I'm guessing a good handgun hunter shooting jacketed slugs has had to turn down quite a number of shots because of bad angles, if that animal is within my radar I don't even consider angles, I'm going to knock his lips loose! I'll hit those vitals no matter how that animal is standing, if I thought, after all these years that I was handicapping myself with an inferior bullet, believe me I'd switch. I want 2 holes & I get it everytime, not 99% of the time, every time. I've shot big mule deer length ways with cast, angles are low on my list with cast.
Now, when using a softnose cast (many people have no clue what they are) you can get the best of both worlds. Those soft nose cast I made for Glenn were 100 grs of pure lead (380 case full) & the back 150 grs were waterquenched wheel weights, these 2 piece slugs weren't seperating, they worked their magic all the way through a very jazzed up elk that was bigger than many bulls, whats not to like? Tell me what a jacketed slug would have done under the same circumstances..... 90-100 yds away & jacketed revolver slugs. 2 of Glenn's slugs left a 1.3 & 1.4 inch exit hole. My guess is they would expand to these same diameters, but exit, no, they wouldn't.
Have I changed anyone's mind, I doubt it. Everyone should shoot what they like & learn from the results, there's no other way.
My good friend Ken O'Neill is one of the very best sixgunners out there & he's prefers jacketed, I hope he jumps in, lots of hands on experience with big game.

Dick

Hey Dick (Sixshot), tell us how you really feel!! Seriously, quit holding back

I think you'll fit right in here

Welcome to the forum.
I'd love to hear some of your stories, especially the Alaska stuff. I'd also like to hear how you cast your 2 piece slugs.
oh, by the way, I agree that elk can be some tough critters to kill. Not particulary tough built, but tenacious(sp?).

Fellow Handgun Hunters,

I have now given this post about 22 hours and by now the dust is settling and those whose body temps rose (for no good reason) have probably cooled down some.

Most of your replies stayed within my originally intended format:

TITLE: Let Us LEARN from this...Cast vs. Jacketed
“This post is not raised to anger anybody, but just to get your feedback.” My intent was that we can all learn from each other; not just argue or get riled up. I was asking for your opinions, (assuming that opinion was based on your personal experience and not just hearsay) because we are all allowed (at least as of this date and time) to have an opinion.

However, HOW that opinion is expressed can mean EVERYTHING, so that is why I stated at the very end of my post: “no need for macho egotism here…” My original post was not meant in any way, shape or form to bash anybody or to put anyone down.

And most of the replies were in pretty good style. And I believe some weren’t. I believe some of the replies were made without realizing the original intent of my post, and some were made by misreading or reading INTO my post, ie. inaccurate data input. You have heard that the percentage of what we actually retain versus what we actually read is somewhat less than 100%, eh?

Case in point: one poster thought the words “dismal failure” appeared somewhere but I do not think that is accurate. Those two words DO appear but not together, sir.

Another case in point by another poster: “I read your story of the deer you shot with the 500 Wyoming and was amazed that you even posted it.” Why? I ask you, sir. I wrote this story to share an exciting hunt with you readers for entertainment value, and apparently I was successful, as all nine comments were extremely positive as well as some were actually flattering.

And then you say: “I have never shot any animal in the corn hole.” If by your reference to “corn hole” you mean the anus, well I have not either, sir. And if you are criticizing the endo-endo shot starting from the rear ie: “xxxx Heart Shot,” please realize that this is actually considered a very doable shot with a good penetrating bullet (as I had that day) in many hunting circles and is written about by much more authoritative authors than me.

By the way, I take this from you as a compliment: “Wow a very elegant writer for sure.” Thank you.

And if you would have paid just a little more attention to my article, you would see that I wrote: “I will not argue that I probably should not have taken that shot…” But it all turned out just fine.

And yet another poster states: “The original post that you are quoting Gregg is wrong in one regard that I've never bothered to go back and fix.” Well golly, I don’t know what I can say about that one. I can only quote what you wrote, sir. And you will please note that I did not disclose your name or the link to your writing; that was done by another poster.

Going back to my original opinion: A properly constructed jacketed expanding handgun bullet for thin-skinned game of deer-elk size placed properly will work fine and due to the expansion will increase internal damage, but may compromise penetration. And a hard-cast bullet on thick-skinned heavy-boned game where maximum penetration is wanted would probably be my first choice in that situation.

And EVERYTHING in between for you folks that works is very fine too.

Overall, I feel that this was a good post and most of the replies were very informative and I believe that we all have learned something, which was my original intent. And I want you to know that I am not angry at any of you and I hope you are not angry at me. Take care you all!

Hey...maybe just to change the subject a bit. I posted this today on YouTube; I think we can all identify with this more or less, as we have all been there and done that in one way or another. Please enjoy!

When doing most things in life, including hunting large game with a handgun, what you have isn't nearly as important as what you do with it.

The tool in your hand may change what is the "best" shot location/placement and maximum effective distance, but, if one is intimately familiar with the tool in their hand, one will KNOW what is the "best" shot location/placement and what is too far.

I can say, I've learned alot from this post and others similiar to this (jacket vs cast). I didn't respond to original post because I don't have ANY field experience with a cast bullet. For fifteen years I used only jacketed bullets. On reason was, I mainly hunted with T/C's. What little hunting I did with revolvers back then, I also shot jacketed in it (45LC & 44mag). I used 185 gr (I think) Remington hollow points, bulk bag (cheaper). Probably not the best choice, looking back, but I was young and didn't have HHM to learn from. The few deer (MS whitetail) I killed with a revolver, were all one shot kills and all complete pass throughs. Keep in mine, these are generally small bodied deer.

Now that I hunt more with a revolver and have learned much more about quality big bore bullets, I've changed things up a little. Some of my revolvers are loaded with premium jacketed and some with hard cast. Like I said, until about 3-4 years ago I never even tried cast bullets. Thanks to this sight, I did. After trying some, I found that two of my revolvers were more accurate with hard cast than with jacketed. Being an accuracy buff, I left those two revovlers dedicated to hard cast (44mag & 475 linebaugh). My FA 83 with 454C, 45LC and 45WM (no loads for it yet) are currently dedicated to jacketed bullets. The 454C cylinder is loaded with 260gr NP's and the 45LC (which I have strapped to me right now) is loaded with 250gr XTP's. I choose the particular bullets for each gun because of accuracy and to have a diverse revolver battery. I have yet been able to take an animal with any hard cast hence not making any comments. I do hope to change that in the near future, as soon as I break in my new FA 83. I am very curious to witness first hand, how a cast bullet performs. I do like the idea of being able to take a shot from most any angle.

Great post, Gregg and everyone else for your knowledgable input.

I think this has been a great discussion, and that said, no reason to get upset.

Dick, great post.

Now, let's talk Texas Heart Shot (THS) for a moment. I like the THS and am confident in the loads I use that they will get to and pass through the vitals from any angle I choose. Nothing wrong with the THS, particularly if your game animal is in high gear and leaving the county, offering only its backside.......

I also have stayed out of this one and others. Only from the lack of inexperience on hard cast. I do like to read up on other opinions. I have had great success with Jacketed. As many others!

On another note, way back when we were draggin knuckles. We would all gang up on 1 animal and just beat it to death! LOL!

My point is that they DO make jacketed, controlled expansion bullets that offer complete penetration on most of the game animals that most will shoot. I am refering to rounds like 375 JDJ, 376 Steyr, 416 Barnes, and the like. Straight wall pistol rounds are a different story and hard cast bullets do offer these rounds an advantage. Great debate, this has been fun, nobody should take any of this personal. Keep it real, if you shoot any animal and it drops dead, you did great. no matter what type the projectile was.