After researching Colorado's big game laws, I learned they require handgun bullets to be an expanding type. I am new to handgun hunting, and had anticipated using hard cast bullets. Looking for recomendations for an expanding bullet for a 41 magnum. I will be using it for whitetail, hogs, and elk in a couple of years hopefully. Does anyone know why Colorado does not allow hard cast bullets?

I read an interpretation on this reg before.....I think it is meant to keep folks from usiing FMJ style bullets rather than hard cast. But I can't remember where that was.....maybe on here somewhere.

I would think the Remington Soft Point or the Hornady XTP would work just fine.

Nosler Partition or Barnes X would be good choices.

Nosler dosen't make a partition for the .41 and the Barnes bullet for the .41 is too light for elk. I use the Hornady 300gr .411 flat nose bullet made for the .405. The only drawback is, this won't work in a S$W. The chamber is too short and you have to seat the bullet in too far and it takes up too much powder capacity. Out of my 14" contender I get 1500fps with the 300gr bullet. You should get complete penetration on elk with this set up. Go getim.

I believe Dan B. is correct, but perhaps Gregg Richter will weigh in. He likely knows more about Colorado regs. than anyone else on this board. You might PM him.

Thanks for the advice. I think I have a solution. Lead Bullets Technology sells a soft nose mold. This will allow me to make expanding bullets.

Yes the Colorado laws are meant to stop the use of full metal jacket military type ammo. For handgun hunting you have to have a barrel at least 4", be 6mm or more in dia, and must generate at least 500 pounds of energy at 100 yards, oh and have a cartridge case that is at least 1" long.

For me that means a 44sp Skelton load or more, a 250gr bullet at about 950fps as a minimum according to a few of the ballistics calculators I have played with. In a 41 a 230gr at 1050fps or more would be legal in a hard cast bullet.

Oh and a hard cast lead bullet could expand but it is not too likely...

Winchester's new 41 Dual Bond bullet (240 grains I think) would be nice if you can get them. I prefer hard cast myself.

Oh boy: here we go.

Fowler's first paragraph is almost quoting from page 7 of the 2009 Colorado Big Game Regulations.

However, let me quote EXACTLY page 7, number 7, part b: "(Handguns) Must use a min. .24-caliber (6mm) diameter EXPANDING BULLET." (I CAPITALIZED those two words for emphasis.)

As far as using a soft cast bullet in a handgun, technically that could be interpreted as illegal. However, in the muzzleloading requirements, there is no requirement to use an expanding bullet.

Therefore, in a large caliber handgun (.40 or bigger which is the minimum MUZZLELOADER diameter allowed on deer or in a .50 if hunting elk which is again the MIN. ML diameter for elk) using a soft cast bullet,I feel the argument could be made that it is a large diameter lead bullet, similar to what is used in a muzzleloader. And I am willing to take that responsibility, and I have, personally.

Another part of the argument of course would be that a .41 caliber lead bullet is a far cry from a .30 caliber FMJ, and that even at full expansion, a .30 cal. soft nose would have a tough time getting much bigger than these large lead slugs.

So, it comes down to how that Wildlife Officer wants to interpret the law. Years before muzzleloading handguns were legalized in Colorado for big game, I had two personal "OK's" from wildlife officers to use my T/C Encore .50 cal...

And I have been checked while hunting with lead bullets in a revolver. Nothing was said about the bullets. They were more interested in the fact that I was actually hunting big game with a revolver (ie. I was not ALSO CARRYING a rifle.)

Does that make it legal? You decide.

I was working on legalizing ML Handguns for use in the ML season (right now they are legal for the reg. rifle seasons only) but I have not pursued it lately. If I had someone or two locally that would join forces with me I would get some renewed energy and we could propose the cast-bullet situation. I can almost personally guarantee that it would pass, because I have my contacts and good data etc. but it is tough doing it alone and frankly, I am gettin' tired!

Thanks for the input Greg. However, you stated:


As far as using a soft cast bullet in a handgun, technically that could be interpreted as illegal.


How would soft nose handgun bullets be considered ILLEGAL?

Soft nose bullets ARE legal. I said "Soft Cast" (not soft NOSE) as to distinguish from Hard Cast. Maybe we are just playing with semantics here.

I am saying that if you had a soft cast bullet instead of a hard cast bullet, they both would look the same, and maybe a wildlife officer would challenge it. My words were: "technically could be interpreted as illegal." Maybe the word "technically" was incorrect, and should have been "visually."

The original question was whether or not a HARD CAST bullet would be legal. I changed the wording to Soft Cast to play "Devil's Advocate."

I stated that a soft cast bullet would be similar to using a Muzzleloader bullet as they are what I would consider "soft cast"
and that would give me an argument should my cast lead handgun bullets be challenged by a wildlife officer.

Question: Can a wildlife officer tell the difference?

Let's say you and your friend are both hunting with a .44 magnum. Your friend is using a jacketed soft nose bullet, (which is legal) with exposed lead nose. You are using a cast lead bullet. Is the wildlife officer that checks you going to say one will expand but the other one won't? They both have solid lead noses.

To be honest, I don't believe a wildlife officer is going to split hairs if you are using a large caliber handgun with cast bullets. I believe they are just trying to prevent the use of FMJ's.

Thank for your help Gregg. Hopefully I will get to test out some 41's on an unsuspecting elk in a year or two.

Having taken an interest in CO hunting regulations - an elk hunt there with my .44mag S&W is on my, unfortunately quite unrealistic, list of "must hunts" - I was raising the issue with the CO Dept of Wildlife earlier this year. For elk with my .44, an obvious choice from both technical, ethical and hunting-oriented perspectives would be the 270gr Belt Mountain "Punch" bullet. With my handloads, this brass bullet with a lead core in the back zips through more than 31" of dense, wet telephone directories. I believe no elk ribcage is tougher than that.

This bullet is techically a hollowpoint, since it has a tiny hole in the top. It probably won't expand unless fired in a rock though. But it would be an excellent choice, I believe, for both elk and moose. When I asked him about whether this bullet would be legal in CO, since it's technically a hollowpoint, the CO wildlife official merely repeated the language in the regs. Not much of a help but I don't want to get in trouble when hunting CO. So I guess I'll have to study the Sierra 300gr softpoints or the like - as much as I like the 300gr XTP's, I think they are too limited when it comes to elk. What do you say Gregg?

No manufactor can produce a handgun bullet that does not meet the ATF's definition of an expanding. All bullets currenetly produced for handguns meet the legal definition of an expanding bullet even the Belt Mountain Punch bullet which as we all know does not expand

This might be true - although I would like you to develop a little on this - but I guess the CO wildlife people might use another definition nonetheless? Would surprise me if they think they need only to adhere to the ATF definition.

Even a hard cast bullet deforms and is a legal hunting bullet. I am at a loss as to how the ATF came up with thier definition, but I am correct that all bullets comercialy sold do infact meet the legal definition of an expanding bullet. The lead core along with the pin sized hole in the jacket nose of the Belt Mountain Punch bullet allows it to make the legal definiton of an expanding bullet. When Barns made the first all copper pistol bullets the ATF ruled them illegal and it took Barnes a lot of legal rangling to get the ATF to finaly decide that the XPB bullets were in fact legal. That is why you see no solid mono metal no hollow points pistol bullets, the ATF's orignal ruling was that no Mono metal pistol bullets were legal, but relented after much rangling from with Barnes

OK. However, I'm still wondering whether the CO regs are based on the ATF definition or whether the wildlife people at state level can invent new ones. Gregg's opinion on this would be valuable!

BTW: aren't the XPB bullets mono copper ones? they're obviously hollowpoints - very much so - but I have understood them as being of copper only.

Yes they are mono metal copper bullets. Barnes was able to get the ATF to change thier intial ruling that no mono bullets were legal. The Barnes all copper bullet have huge hollow points. I have recoverd quite a few lead core hollow points that did not expand, yet they are still considered an expanding bullet. I have never known, nor heard of any state considering a hard cast bullet to be illegal for hunting.

Quote from Mikewin: "as much as I like the 300gr XTP's, I think they are too limited when it comes to elk. What do you say Gregg?"

Mike, I do not have any personal experience with the 300 gr. XTP in a .44 magnum, so I can not say.

I have some heavy .44 mag. handloads with the 320 gr. SSK hardcast bullet (on the left)

and a box of Cor-Bon 280 gr. Round Nose Soft Point "Bonded Core" bullets (right)



Again, I have no personal game experience with either of these.

Cor-Bon lists some very interesting .44 magnum ammo in their Hunter Series:

http://www.dakotaammo.net/CORBON-Hunter/300/300/dept

Including a 300 grain JSP. I would look into these.

Make it alot easier use a 375 JDJ, a 376 Steyr, 416 JDJ, 416 Barnes or any of the other truely Big Bore Handcannons that "don't require the use of Hardcast/FMJ" bullets to get the job done, that is if you are elk or larger game hunting.

"Make it a lot easier, use a 375 JDJ, a 376 Steyr, 416 JDJ or a 416 Barnes" will these Handcannons kill any better than my 41's, 44's or 45's in revolvers? Nope, but they will kill a lot farther away! Besides, not everyone wants to use a scoped single shot Handcannon, just my opinion.
I think Gregg has said it 2-3 times, they don't want FMJ's used but cast slugs are OK.

Dick

Per a Cor-Bon employee the 300 grain JSP in 44 Mag is the Sierra. That was a few years ago. I never shot an elk. A few pigs & deer is all. 2 factory loaded 300 grain XTP's (Hornady & Black Hills) left me wanting. Can't imagine they'd be good on elk.

Thank you for summing it up nicely, sixshot.

Gregg,

that does still not solve my problem with the Belt Mtn Punch bullets. They are about as non-expanding as a hard cast lead bullet but have a metal jacket (although technically a JHP not a FMJ). What would the CO wildlife people say about them?

Mike,

I only know of one other handgun hunter's experience using Belt Mountain Punch Bullets. He used them on a buffalo at the Durham Ranch while on one of my Antelope Hunts. And I believe they were the .475 caliber 380 grain out of a .475 Linebaugh...

He told me that they did just what they were supposed to do, went completely through. The bull took many many hits before going down. He did say that he would not use them again. Please, I am NOT trying to start a debate, and I am not saying that was the fault of the bullet; I am just trying to give you input per your question and reporting as I was told personally. Oh, and I looked at the hanging carcass too and saw the holes.

If you are looking for complete pass through on an elk, I would go with hard cast. I do not know what the CO Wildlife people would say about the Belt Mountain Punch Bullet, but if they KNEW what it was called, that would not be in it's favor, for sure. Plus, IMO, tiny hole or not, they sure don't look like an "expanding" bullet. And in this case, looks are important.

Okay guys, I have a definitive answer to my initial question of whether or not hard cast bullets were legal handgun loads for big game in Colorado.
I sent this same question to the Colorado Division of Wildlife. I received an email response from Bob Fisher, who stated hard cast handgun loads were LEGAL for hunting big game, providing the loads meets all of the additional requirements listed above in Gregg's post.

In any of you would like a copy of the email for future reference, let me know.

The truth of the matter is there is nothing in North America that a proper Hard Cast bullet won't put on the ground pronto.

525 grain WLFN hard cast at 1100 FPS from a 500 Linebaugh 1 shot and on the ground in secounds bullet exited



One Bear and one Moose 1 shot each with WLFN 390 grain at 1350 from 475 Linebaugh. The Moose ran about 15 yards and fell over dead. A raking shot on the Bear and all 4 legs went straight out spread eagle style and never got up



The Punch bullet would work the same but is not needed for ELK or any animal in the US, but it does meet the legal definition of a JHP

Bullet placement is the key to bang flops

Good to know! I've stated before that the issue of bullet construction & bullet failures are the most interesting posts I read on any of the forums.

Dick

PM sent to Mike W. If this is an official stance then it would be nice if CO DOW would change the language for the "expanding bullet" requirement for handguns.

The legal definition of an expanding bullet and a logical definition are not one and the same

This has been a very interesting post and I have learned a lot... It is good to see how some of you guys think.

I agree with Gregg that the languae should be changed in the regulations, how els can we be legal?

Hey jwp475: Do you mean that the gov could never keep from contadicting itself??

O)

:0

Here is a copy of the e-mail from the CO DOW:

"""Hi Michael,

Hard cast bullets are legal handgun loads. Handguns and ammo must meet all requirements in our regulations and be documented by the manufacture, i.e. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs. at
50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.

7. HANDGUNS
a. Barrel must be min. 4 inches long.
b. Must use a min. .24-caliber (6 mm) diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs. at
50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.

Thank you,

Bob

Bob XXXXXXXXX
Colorado Division of Wildlife""""

There it is, perfect contradiction. How can a hard cast bullet "meet all requirements in our regulations" if they are technically not expanding? Also sounds like handloads aren't allowed as they are not "documented by the manufacturer"
and do not have a "manufacturer rating."

Again, this e-mail is fine if you carry a copy of it while hunting, but really, they need to change the language in the regs book.

Just out of curiosity I bet the Punch bullet would in fact expand if you shot something like a 1" thick piece of AR500 plate steel. A real Full Metal Jacket bullet is not supposed to.

I've hunted here in Colorado with handloads in my handguns for 10+ years. I guess I've beem illegal during that time.

Recoil

You guy's arte missing the point that is "the legal definition" there are no handgun bullets manufactured that do not meet he legal definition.

I believe JWP475 is exactly right on this one and everyone has let this get away from them. All you have to do is prove the bullet could expand and it is legal. Any bullet sold for handgunning would qualify or the ATF would shut its sales down.

Hit a steel plate with ANY handgun bullet and it will splatter, thus prove it could expand. The fact that we don't want some bullet designs to do so in game is beside the point...

They put the expanding bullet regulation in there to keep people from potting at big game with surplus military ammo. Any form of cast bullet is capable of expanding, they just don't specify what it must expand on.

Exactly............