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Extending the Linebaugh Logic #66696 03/18/2010 2:14 PM
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guitarpicva Offline OP
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OK, I was just reading the post re: .44 mag for whitetails. All that makes sense to me.

John Linebaugh's writings on the subject of caliber, muzzle velocity and bullet weight/style are very interesting. He really likes the .45 Colt for a myriad of reasons, but wouldn't extending the same logic to the .44 mag be just as valid? While the bullet is 23/1000's smaller in diameter, it's still similar in weight and profile as the .452's are. Wouldn't a moderated load in .44 mag be just as effective as a hot load in .45 Colt? In other words, wouldn't say a 1200 fps load in .44 be as good as a .45 Colt with the same muzzle velocity (chamber pressures aside)?

My thinking is, .44 is an easier to find ammo if times get tougher or if you go on a hunt somewhere where you have to buy ammo while "afield". There seem to be more options on the SBH/RH/SRH .44 platform than the .45 Colt. Particularly the hunter models with the integral scope mounts.

Trying to refine my choice of caliber, now that I'm settled on the Ruger platform as the revolver. Comments??

Last edited by guitarpicva; 03/18/2010 2:14 PM.

guitarpicva |||||| [o] VA
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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66698 03/18/2010 2:21 PM
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I know I will catch flack from some folks here for even saying this, but in my experience, that seemingly little difference in diameter between .429 and .452 is actually noticeable on game. I have hit too many animals lethally with the .44 that didn't so much as flinch at the shot. This in and of itself is of little consequence, but I can tell you that animals -- even large animals react to the larger calibers. The .45 Colt is higher up on the food chain than the .44 mag in my humble opinion. The .45 creates a larger wound channel all else being equal or similar. The problem lies in the availablity of high-performance ammunition. No doubt that the .44 has the .45 Colt covered in spades on this front -- and pretty much every other revolver caliber, but to the handloader this isn't of much relevance.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Whitworth] #66702 03/18/2010 2:43 PM
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I tend to agree with Whitworth --- the size of the hole matters.

Actually, the 44 mag is closer to the 41 than it is to the 45 Colt. My personal opinion is that the diameter of the projectile (and weight of it for purposes of penetration) are the most importatant factors in selecting hunting bullets for revolvers. None are going to give enough velocity to compare with modern centerfire rifle ammo. The only advantage of increased velocity (over some reasonable level) is some improvement in trajectory.

Just my $.02.


It's more important where you hit 'em, than what you hit 'em with.
Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wtroper] #66704 03/18/2010 3:27 PM
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I think part of John's reasoning in favor of the .45 over the .44 has to do with 'more for less' more diameter, more TKO (in theory) all for less pressure and recoil.

I own and shoot the .41mag, .44mag, and .45 Colt and feel that the Colt is the best of the group.


It's not the gun, but the man behind it.

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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wtroper] #66706 03/18/2010 3:46 PM
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I also agree with the other guys.

I used the 44 for 5 or 6 years then in about '91 switched to the 45. I feel (however slight it might be) I get more noticeable hits and quicker kills with the 45.

98% of my experience has been with cast bullets. My opinion might totally change if I would use jacketed bullets.

Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Russell] #66707 03/18/2010 3:59 PM
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guitarpicva Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: 1948ER
I think part of John's reasoning in favor of the .45 over the .44 has to do with 'more for less' more diameter, more TKO (in theory) all for less pressure and recoil.

I own and shoot the .41mag, .44mag, and .45 Colt and feel that the Colt is the best of the group.




Perfect answer for me! Thank you. First hand with all three cal's.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wyote] #66708 03/18/2010 4:02 PM
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 Originally Posted By: wyote
I also agree with the other guys.

First off 98% of my experience has been with cast bullets. My opinion might totally change if I would use jacketed bullets.

I used the 44 for 5 or 6 years then in about '91 switched to the 45. I feel (however slight it might be) I get more noticeable hits and quicker kills with the 45.



Also excellent advice from field results. Thanks! I am really big on giving the animal a swift end when at all possible. These wonderful creatures that God made deserve that.


guitarpicva |||||| [o] VA
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If the LORD is God, follow him; ... 1 Kings 18
Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66715 03/18/2010 5:01 PM
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In a sense I think you can extend his logic to all calibers,imo.For example in my 308 my 175s show a dramatic difference on the animal over 125,130,and,150s.Yes a 357,180gr may do the job,but a 41,250 will do it easier,and 44 280 easier,45 320,475 420 etc etc.Heres the way I look at it,ever busted wood,good.I can drive a wedge to split with a ball ping hammer and do the job.But if I pick up and axe to drive the wedge I want have to work as hard to do the same job,25lb sledgehammer even less.All get the job done,but some so much easier.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: cottonstalk] #66727 03/18/2010 8:38 PM
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Vance in AK. Offline
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Due to the way the area of a circle is computed the difference in area of the two calibers(expressed in a percentage) is almosr 5 times the difference in simple diamater(expressed in a percentage). Difference in diamater is approx 2%. Difference in area (If I did my math right) is approx 10%. Circles are wierd :-)
I think the real difference comes in with the meplat dia. If the meplat dia. is the same % of the bullet dia. on both then the above stated differences will hold true. If not then the meplat dia has to be used, not bullet dia.
A .429 bullet with a .400 meplat will probably be more effective than a .452 bullet with a .390 meplat.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Vance in AK.] #66752 03/19/2010 11:30 AM
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TCTex. Offline
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I knew there was a reason I liked my 300 XTP's out of my 44's...


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: TCTex.] #66757 03/19/2010 11:52 AM
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If we extend the cartridge case, the 445 out runs the 454 at 100 yards, in power and speed. So I like extended logic.
\:\)


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Tigger] #66766 03/19/2010 3:26 PM
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The one point no one has mentioned so far is availability of a desirable hunting handgun in 45 Colt that you can afford. Finding a Super Black Hawk Hunter in 45 Colt may be a problem. On gunbroker I see lots of 44 magnum's and one lonely 41 magnum, NO 45 Colt's in a Hunter.

One may need to get a 454 Super Red Hawk to be able to shoot the 45 Colt in a desirable Handgun Hunting package. I would think this would be the solution to getting a 45 Colt to hunt with.

I agree on Diameter. A 45 being 10% larger in area than a 44 is a significant amount. The same would apply to a 480 Ruger over a 45. The 480 Ruger is almost 11% larger than a 45. Bigger foot print = more energy dump on impact.

I did the calculation years ago compairing a 30-06 and a 35 Whelen. Book energy figures were about the same for both of them. I shot lots of deer with both a 30-06 and a 35 Whelen. No comparison in the reaction to bullet impact. As memory serves me I think the Foot Print of a 358 was 35% more that that of a 308. That is a big difference.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Bob Roach] #66776 03/19/2010 8:28 PM
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Here's my thought. I have noticed a big difference in animal reaction when I compared a heavily loaded(300 gr.) 44 mag. vs. a 300 gr. 50 AE. Many of the times I used the 50 cal. the animals would be slammed to the ground vs. a dramatically less violent reaction when the animals were shot with the 44. Both calibers gave sufficient penetration, but the larger diameter did seem to work better. Then I went through another learning curve. I purchased a Competitor in 376 Steyr. Less diameter, but this round out performed anything I've shot in the past. The 376 using expanding bullets out penetrated my 454 and 50 AE using hardcasts. Plus the exit wounds from the 376 Steyr were golf ball size. In this case the smaller diameter (at least in my opinion) blew the other rounds out of the water. I have no doubt that when I do testing with my 416 Barnes I'll have similar results. I'm also putting a 475/350 Rem barrel for my Competitor on order. I'll have to see how this round compares to the others.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Tigger] #66797 03/20/2010 8:09 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Tigger
If we extend the cartridge case, the 445 out runs the 454 at 100 yards, in power and speed. So I like extended logic.
\:\)


LOL


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wapitirod] #66798 03/20/2010 8:12 AM
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Bob R, why do you need a hunter model when you can buy blue or stailess blackhawks in 45 Colt all day long. I know they have the integral scope mounting system but with a standard blackhawk all you have to do is drill a couple holes and I personally like the scope positioning better plus you can use more than two rings if desired with a Weaver style mount such as a Weigand but to each his own.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wapitirod] #66802 03/20/2010 1:31 PM
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 Originally Posted By: wapitirod
Bob R, why do you need a hunter model when you can buy blue or stailess blackhawks in 45 Colt all day long. I know they have the integral scope mounting system but with a standard blackhawk all you have to do is drill a couple holes and I personally like the scope positioning better plus you can use more than two rings if desired with a Weaver style mount such as a Weigand but to each his own.


This was actually one of my questions. I was considering a J-Point for the Bisley model BH in .45, so you just get a "generic" (Weaver?) mount with it and have the frame drilled and tapped, is that it?


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wapitirod] #66804 03/20/2010 1:36 PM
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It's the bullet! Alaska had it right.

I've killed deer too. I've had'em go down with the .30-30 and run with the .45-70! Still, I instinctively feel the .45-70 is a better cartridge for deer. Animal reaction is not and never will be a good indicator of bullet selection because there are simply too many variables to contend with. Placement is certainly key, but at ranges beyond bow range, one cannot always get the perfect presentation that will guarantee a significant number of kills where everything was precisely the same! So statistically, animal reaction is meaningless beyond personal satisfaction.

The only way one can determine which bullet/caliber is better, is through thorough autopsy and hopefully bullet recovery. Animals are not "slammed" to the ground. What is being described is a physiological reaction to the disruption of the CNS.

I own and hunt with both the .45 Colt and the .44 Magnum. With properly constructed bullets and proper loads, I simply do not spend one moment wondering if one is better than the other. Give me a flat meplat and stay out of the way.

Dan

Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Dan Chamberlain] #66806 03/20/2010 2:29 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Dan Chamberlain
It's the bullet! Alaska had it right.

I've killed deer too. I've had'em go down with the .30-30 and run with the .45-70! Still, I instinctively feel the .45-70 is a better cartridge for deer. Animal reaction is not and never will be a good indicator of bullet selection because there are simply too many variables to contend with. Placement is certainly key, but at ranges beyond bow range, one cannot always get the perfect presentation that will guarantee a significant number of kills where everything was precisely the same! So statistically, animal reaction is meaningless beyond personal satisfaction.

The only way one can determine which bullet/caliber is better, is through thorough autopsy and hopefully bullet recovery. Animals are not "slammed" to the ground. What is being described is a physiological reaction to the disruption of the CNS.

I own and hunt with both the .45 Colt and the .44 Magnum. With properly constructed bullets and proper loads, I simply do not spend one moment wondering if one is better than the other. Give me a flat meplat and stay out of the way.

Dan



I am in agreement that bullet placement and bullet choice are getting too far afield of my original question. My original question encompasses ONLY .44 vs .45 for purely factory ammo availability and convenience, as well as the availability of more factory options in .44 vs .45. I am most likely to use an expanding bullet design for a number of reasons.

I read the entire discussion elsewhere of how "the .44 can take anything in North America..." supported by many people with first-hand knowlege.

Is .45 better? Marginally? Significantly? Then I can judge whether the performance difference is significant enought TO ME to choose one over the other given the factory ammo and design differences.

If we get off into 30-30, and 376, and 35, and 480 ad nauseum, my original question would be swallowed up in the "caliber wars". That gets me nowhere.

Thanks all for your input! This is a very valuable learning experience for me!


guitarpicva |||||| [o] VA
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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66808 03/20/2010 3:23 PM
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A lot has been said here about trying to justify a reason to buy one caliber over the other. If you enjoy handgun hunting as I do, chances are very good that your first choice of caliber will not be your last. Don't be misled, your ability to shoot your selection well is more important than the difference in the calibers mentioned in this thread. After the well placed bullet comes the bullet itself. It can't be too hard or too fragile. Bottom line is do the animal justice, a well placed bullet of the proper style will put him down quickly.


Jim
Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: TCTex.] #66823 03/20/2010 9:40 PM
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Whitworths answer,"I know I will catch flack from some folks here for even saying this, but in my experience, that seemingly little difference in diameter between .429 and .452 is actually noticeable on game. I have hit too many animals lethally with the .44 that didn't so much as flinch at the shot. This in and of itself is of little consequence, but I can tell you that animals -- even large animals react to the larger calibers. The .45 Colt is higher up on the food chain than the .44 mag in my humble opinion. The .45 creates a larger wound channel all else being equal or similar. The problem lies in the availablity of high-performance ammunition. No doubt that the .44 has the .45 Colt covered in spades on this front -- and pretty much every other revolver caliber, but to the handloader this isn't of much relevance. "

If you are talking easy access ammo,not specialty,the 44 has more available ammo than the 45 for sure.

Last edited by cottonstalk; 03/20/2010 9:40 PM.

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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66826 03/21/2010 12:31 AM
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Just so you know, your advice and suggestions really are helping....I begin the search for my Blackhawk tomorrow after church.

.44 or .45 .... .44 or .45 .... .44 or .45 ..... Which will he choose?

Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66829 03/21/2010 12:58 AM
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I have both

JMHO Go with the 45 Colt if you handload.

I like the 250 XTP bullet

If you do not handload go with the 44 Mag
May more factory load choices

They are both thumpers but I think the Colt has just a bit of an edge.

BTW I have had the hunter Gun and like the STD Bisleys with the Leupold Mounts better.

The gun has better Balance
JMHO

Last edited by H2OBUG; 03/21/2010 1:05 AM.

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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66833 03/21/2010 2:07 AM
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vern Offline
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I have both and it may be compairing apples to oranges between the two calibers but; I have had a long huntin relationship with the 44. I will say I favor the 44 for its availability in guns & ammo especially if you don't reload. If you do reload a WFN 250gr hardcast from a 44 is a killin machine. Not to say a 45 will not do the same. I am just bias to the 44 over the 45. I now spend most of my hunts with the 480 anyway...


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: vern] #66838 03/21/2010 3:02 AM
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I too love the 480.
I guess a main consideration is this.
What is the largest game you will typically be hunting? If it's whitetails, the .44 will do everything you need.
If you need something bigger you may want to skip the 45 & go to 480/475.


Vance in AK.

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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: vern] #66839 03/21/2010 3:14 AM
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Drilling and tapping a 45 Colt Black Hawk for a scope mount will certainly work, and from a cost standpoint is probably the best option.

I do prefer the clean look of the Hunter Model.

With handloads of compairable power and bullet weight and profile, the 45 Colt in a Ruger should outperform the 44 magnum on game every time. The 10% increase in foot print does make a difference.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Bob Roach] #66841 03/21/2010 4:23 AM
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Either caliber will get you there. I've never really noticed much different between the two, one time I think the 44 does a better job & the next animal changes my mind to the 45, there's a lot going on out there when the bullet leaves the barrel.
One thing that will never change is that bullet placement will always be #1, a heavier bullet or a wider meplat won't make up for shot placement. I've said before, wounded with a 44 or 45 is the same as wounded with a 7 mag or 300, you still have to hit the vitals.
High performance 44 ammo is pretty easy to find, with the 45 you'll probably have to roll your own. With the 44 you most likeley will get proper cylinder throats, with the 45 you very possibly could have to ream them to get the most out of your gun. If you run 250 gr slugs from both you won't see much difference, when you start going bigger than that the 45 gains a pretty good edge over the 44 (300 gr slugs & bigger)
Good luck in your choice.

Dick

Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: sixshot] #66857 03/21/2010 1:45 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
If you run 250 gr slugs from both you won't see much difference, when you start going bigger than that the 45 gains a pretty good edge over the 44 (300 gr slugs & bigger)
Good luck in your choice.

Dick


Exactly! I absolutely agree with this statement.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: sixshot] #66860 03/21/2010 1:55 PM
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i will keep my 44 for one reason. i can get ammo for it anywhere. i tend to notice things like this and when you get into some backwater gas station/bait/feed store, you can bet on finding 30-30, 30.06, 308, 22lr,38/357,and 44mag. you may or may not find some of the others. then i dont live all that far from that backwater and that my color my thinking. ether way get the one that you like and forget the rest of it. you will enjoy what you have more and have less hassle.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: bluecow] #66862 03/21/2010 1:59 PM
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 Originally Posted By: bluecow
i will keep my 44 for one reason. i can get ammo for it anywhere. i tend to notice things like this and when you get into some backwater gas station/bait/feed store, you can bet on finding 30-30, 30.06, 308, 22lr,38/357,and 44mag. you may or may not find some of the others. then i dont live all that far from that backwater and that my color my thinking. ether way get the one that you like and forget the rest of it. you will enjoy what you have more and have less hassle.


Good, solid reasoning.


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: Whitworth] #66877 03/21/2010 7:11 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: bluecow
i will keep my 44 for one reason. i can get ammo for it anywhere. i tend to notice things like this and when you get into some backwater gas station/bait/feed store, you can bet on finding 30-30, 30.06, 308, 22lr,38/357,and 44mag. you may or may not find some of the others. then i dont live all that far from that backwater and that my color my thinking. ether way get the one that you like and forget the rest of it. you will enjoy what you have more and have less hassle.


Good, solid reasoning.


As I search for both the .45 Bisley Blackhawk and the .45 Colt ammo, I am inclined to agree. Also the closer tolerances with the .44 make smart sense to me, especially as a starting gun. I can spend more time practicing and less time fixing a new gun! :-) I guess I should go with a .44 and if I get into loading, I could always have it converted to a .45 or sell it and get one.

Getting close to pulling the trigger on the .44 I think (all puns gleefully intended).


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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66880 03/21/2010 7:52 PM
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OK, let me throw a monkey wrench into the discussion.

5.5" break anyone's heart over a 7.5" in .45 (or .44 for that matter).

Last edited by guitarpicva; 03/21/2010 11:31 PM. Reason: removed qualifying comment

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Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66907 03/22/2010 7:11 AM
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for a primary gun I prefer the longer barrel. If you use the iron sights you'll have a longer sight radius increasing your accuracy and the longer barrel balances better with a scope. I do like short barreled guns for back up and occasionally primary weapons but the main thing I like about them is the ease of carrying especially with no optics.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: wapitirod] #66914 03/22/2010 12:08 PM
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guitarpicva Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: wapitirod
for a primary gun I prefer the longer barrel. If you use the iron sights you'll have a longer sight radius increasing your accuracy and the longer barrel balances better with a scope. I do like short barreled guns for back up and occasionally primary weapons but the main thing I like about them is the ease of carrying especially with no optics.


The sight radius was my intent with the 7.5" to begin with. I would like something like a J-Point for aiming, so does that change your answer at all since it "eliminates" the sight radius?


guitarpicva |||||| [o] VA
AC4IY
...How long will you go limping between two different opinions?
If the LORD is God, follow him; ... 1 Kings 18
Re: Extending the Linebaugh Logic [Re: guitarpicva] #66929 03/22/2010 5:03 PM
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Vance in AK. Offline
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My 4.5" Blackhawk is a pleasure to pack...
My 7.5" SRH is a pleasure to shoot...


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Decision Made!!!! [Re: guitarpicva] #66931 03/22/2010 5:41 PM
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guitarpicva Offline OP
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OK! Agonizing and contemplating has come to an end!
\:D


I went with a Bisley in .44 mag. I'll get my feet wet with it, and begin to hand load. Then I'll consider a .45 if I think it's warranted later. Our little VA whitetails probably won't warrant anything else.

I even have my wife wanting to hunt with a handgun (and me!) now. She's not believing that she can handle the .44, but I think with an appropriate load, she might be surprised. She got hammered once with a full house 158 gr .357 load and that shied her away from the "big boys".

Thank you all VERY much for your assistance and walking and talking me through this decision.

Once I get the wheelgun and begin to get proficient with the open sights, I'll use this wonderful forum to research my optics choices (if I find I really need them).

You folks ROCK!


guitarpicva |||||| [o] VA
AC4IY
...How long will you go limping between two different opinions?
If the LORD is God, follow him; ... 1 Kings 18
Re: Decision Made!!!! [Re: guitarpicva] #66934 03/22/2010 6:30 PM
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Vance in AK. Offline
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Me thinks you made an excellent choice & have a MOST excellent wife!! Get her going & you will have a partner for life!


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: Decision Made!!!! [Re: Vance in AK.] #66935 03/22/2010 7:01 PM
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sixshot Offline
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Thats great that your wife has an interest in handgun hunting, you are a lucky man! Start her out right by using light loads in your 44 magnum, or use 44 special loads, either will work & they will be pleasant for her to shoot. Also make certain that she's close to the target, you want to make sure she is hitting what she shoots at, that will build her confidence & she will start to forget about the recoil.
Many years ago I had my 15 yr old daughter practice all summer with her 308 rifle, I loaded cast bullets at about 1600 fps & there was almost no recoil, I would have her load 4 rounds, walk over & sit down quickly (had a range at my house) & shoot 4 steel targets on the hillside. She got where she could run those 4 targets in about 10-12 seconds.
When elk season started I loaded up full power loads, I zeroed her rifle & we went elk hunting, she shot a 5 point bull the first morning & she still doesn't know she shot a full power load that day.

Dick

Re: Decision Made!!!! [Re: sixshot] #66998 03/23/2010 9:07 PM
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GlennS Offline
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Hard to go wrong with the 44. I like all of you have larger ones to choose from but in the end, I grab my 44s more often than not. Almost all of my guns have 5.5" barrels now days except the "primary" one if you want to call it that which is a 10" 454 (it counts as a 45, right
\:\)
) Your targets will never know the difference when you are hunting. Find a good expanding bullet or bullet with a nice wide meplat and start practicing. You will have a blast!

Last edited by GlennS; 03/23/2010 9:08 PM.

"Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"
Re: Decision Made!!!! [Re: GlennS] #67008 03/23/2010 11:36 PM
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guitarpicva Offline OP
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My new Bisley arrived today, and she is a REAL looker! The grips are just gorgeous, and I am SO happy I chose the Bisley. I wasn't able to actually hold one before I chose that frame option, but I knew I have never liked the std. SAA style grips. The Bisley is realy more natural for me to hold.

I've already performed the PMTJ, and the trigger is actually quite good. Very little creep and very crisp release.

Can't wait for the ammo to arrive, but I have a quick road trip to FL for the weekend to get past before I can take her out for a test drive.


guitarpicva |||||| [o] VA
AC4IY
...How long will you go limping between two different opinions?
If the LORD is God, follow him; ... 1 Kings 18
Re: Decision Made!!!! [Re: guitarpicva] #67050 03/24/2010 12:35 PM
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rawhide kid Offline
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Congratulations. What barrel length did you end up with? I have a 5.5 inch 45Colt Bisley that loves the 300grn Hornady XTP.
Pictures would be nice.


NRA LIFE MEMBER, Retired Air Force: SS Ruger Bisley 5.5 45LC, EAA Witness 38Supr, S&W 625 Mnt Gun in 45LC
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