You guys heard me complain enough about my 454 but I'm stuck. Today I shot a box of Winchester Platinum tip hollow points thru it and I got a 2 1/2 in. group at 50 yds. off the bench. I normally use Win. 296 and H110. These powders work really good in my 460. It just seems like I can't get the groups down any smaller. I called Magnum Research and they said I should be able to get these groups with open sights. Should I try another kind of powder and if so whatm kind would you suggest. Or would you send it back to Magnum Research? Any opinions?

I've never heard of a problem with a BFR but check the throats and make sure they are at least .453. I doubt that's the problem since the factory ammo worked good. I'm just starting to fight the same problem with the 454 I built. With factory Winchester 300gr sp (discontinued) it will shoot one hole groups at 25yds but I've been trying to build a load with 300gr XTP's and so far no luck. I'd stick with the W296 and H110 they are the top powders for that cartridge and maybe try a different bullet or play with different charges some more. JMHO

I measured the throats and they are .455. I've tried 2 different powders,3 different brands of bullets & 5 different bullet weights. I tried 3 different primers, 2 scopes & 2 sets of rings. I use sm. rifle primers. Should I try sm. magnum rifle primers?

Mike,

Freedom Arms' factory loads used Accurate #9 with their 260 and 300 grain bullets. Go to freedomarms.com for their load data. I've had real good luck with AA#9.

Doc

I use H110 in all my magnum straight wall stuff and it works great with all mine.

Mike

I use 2400 in my FA 454s. I have never been able to get 110 (296) to give me the groups that I can get with 2400. Note, however, that I load much more for accuracy than for velocity. My 300 gr 454s are doing about 1400 fps. I can get groups considerably less than 2" at 100 yds using XTP mags.

Doc, the FA's website said to use magnum primers with H110 and W296. They said this gives a better ignition and more consistancy. Won't magnum primers raise the chamber preassure?

I have always used Magnum primers with all my H110 loads. It's a slow burning ball powder that needs a good spark. H110 and W296 are the same powder.

My 454 is a levergun and I load with H110 and mag primers with 335gr boolits. It shoots better than I can.

I'll pass on this info from a very experience Pistolero who goes by Murphy over at Alaska Outdoors Directory forums. I've met with him at his loading bench a few times. He's worth listening to.

In his words.....

All of this is in Starline brass which has small primer pockets for small rifle magnum primers. Though small primer pockets are all the same, load data for this one requires the hotter spark of the magnum rifle and also needs the stronger cup of the rifle primer.

I have used the Remington #7 1/2 primer and CCI-450 magnum small rifle primer, as noted.

I don't use H-110 or W-296 powder because I don't like the performance of ball powders over temperature range and also dislike its lack of versatility.

I use H4227 and Vihta N-110 and both will work from moderate to heavy loads. They are very clean burning and give very low standard deviation in tight guns.

I am a strong proponent of heavy for caliber cast bullets in any big bore hand gun and am satisfied that they are the best way to go for any hunting or bear protection application, especially with shorter barrels in packable revolvers.

Here is a sample of data for the Beartooth 340 grain LFNGC bullet. This bullet is sized to .452" and actually weighs 345 grains. It is extremely accurate in my FA guns and I have shot it into 3" at 100 yards with my 2X Leupold.

This is chronographed with my Oehler model 35-P, from my 5 1/2" barrel M83 with the average of five shots at 15' feet from the muzzle.

H4227 and Rem #7 1/2 primer.
Charge, Velocity, Ex. Spread, S.D.
24.0 1237 32 15
25.0 1288 28 14
26.0 1318 31 15
27.0 1378 35 12
28.0 1414 15 08

H4227 and CCI-450 primer.
26.0 1343 23 12
27.0 1398 21 09
28.0 1445 18 08

N-110 and Rem. #7 1/2 primer.
25.0 1443 24 08
26.0 1487 37 14

N-110 and CCI-450 primer.
25.0 1452 33 12
26.0 1491 28 10

These bullets were alos sized .452".

With the Cast Performance 335 grain WLNGC bullet.
N-110 powder and CCI-450 primer.
26.0 1495 21 05
27.0 1537 25 08

With the Beartooth 355 grain WLNGC.
H4227 powder and CCI-450 primers.
22.0 1147 39 21
24.0 1237 35 19 (2 gr. increase)
25.0 1268 27 17
26.0 1316 28 13
27.0 1362 24 11

Both H4227 and Vihta N-110 can be loaded down to moderate levels. The top load with all bullets and powders were a full case. The 340 LFN has a longer base section and both H4227 and N110 fill the case and is slightly compressed. That is a good thing. I use a Redding Profile crimp die and crimp into a crimp groove. These require a very heavy crimp. Recoil is...how shall I say this....stimulating and the bullets will walk if we don't hold 'em. This is also one of the reasons why we get such low velocity spreads on this one, a heavy bullet and a tight crimp on cases of uniform length. These powders are much better than the ball powders even though the H-110/W-296 may get higher velocity in some guns, velocity variation will be higher.

Mike,I would give the mag. primers a try.I've used standard primers CCI 400 with H110/296 powder and haven't had any issues with accuracy but every gun's different so I would go with the mag.primers and see if that makes a difference.

Wapitirod, is this acceptable accuracy for a BFR(2 1/2 groups)? Magnum Research says I should be able to do this with open sights. My 460 at 50 yds. will consistantly put 3 shots 1 1/2 or less all day long. Am I expecting too much from my 454? I would like to thank all of the guys who answered my post. I appreciate all of the info. you guys have given me.

The problem is the brass that uses a SR primer. You need the mag SR primer and max loads in that brass when using H110 or 296. Accuracy is still poor because you can't work loads.
Cut down .460 brass to .454 length, use Fed 155 LP mag primers and you can work loads for accuracy from starting loads to max.
It will make the BFR sit up and talk.
The SR primer in the .454 is an abortion. It is the worst thing ever done to a good caliber.

The problem with H110/296 is that it is run on the bottom edge of the pressure needed for the powder to sustain burning in an oxygen-free atmosphere without extinguishing itself. I know that's counter-intuitive, as the powder supplies its own oxygen, but it turns out that with the strong deterrents used to slow the surface burn rates of spherical propellants, the heat can fail to disassemble the molecules to provide oxygen and fuel if the pressure is inadequate. In pressure too low, as when burning the stuff out in the open, there is dependence on oxygen from air to sustain the flame heat against the deterrents.

When the powder is made, the deterrent penetrates the surface, being more concentrated at the surface than deeper in the grains. Once you burn through the more concentrated surface deterrent this ceases to be an issue. The powder burn rate is then speeding up to maintain the powder's progressive burning characteristic despite shrinking surface area. Eventually, the grains get small enough that their lack of core deterrent can't make up for it, and the burn transitions to digressive burning. That usually happens just before the pressure peak. The weaker digressive burn and some powder thrown forward of the chamber are the smaller portions of the charge that continue burning past the pressure peak.

As near as I can tell from successful H110/296 loads, you need to reach about 25,000 psi and have the case over 85% full so the primer can pressurize it adequately

The ony thing i can add to the above from unclenick,

the reason small rifle primers are used in the 454 case is the fact that large pistol primers are not stong enough to hold the pressure. remember The SAAMI did not accept the .454 Casull as a standard cartridge until 1998, when the maximum average pressure was set at 65,000 psi. The highest pressure shown in the Hodgdon Data Manual using the older copper crusher method is 55,000 cup.

H110 and 296 are full tilt only powders. 2400 is an awsome powder if you want reduced loads

I believe that is very acceptable accuracy in any gun but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon and the thing you have to remember is that there are alot of variables on any given day that can affect your accuracy and when it comes down to it what interests me more than group size off the bench is confidence to make a kill shot from a hunting position. I also wouldn't necessarily judge the BFR against the 460 as it is a completely different beast, they may both be 45 cal straightwalls but the simularities end there. Remember in the X Frame or Encore your dealing with a pound or more of weight difference over a standard cylinder BFR, Ruger or FA and secondly if that's an X fram it has gain twist rifling and mine would shoot 1.5" or smaller groups at 150yds all day long. I think once you stumble on to the right load things will start to come together better for you just be patient as it doesn't sound like there is an issue with the Gun that Magnum could address anyways. Anyways that's the best opinion and advice I can give. One other thing I have seen guys get so obsessed with tightening groups that they psychologically sabotage themselves and they literally try to hard and things get worse.

Sounds like good data but, I'm confuse what is N110?
Steve

I've used the Rem. 7 1/2 primers exclusively in the .454 for 20 years, after testing various others.

The LP mag is fine with pressure and they look normal with over max loads of 296. They also work fine in the .460.
The SR mag primer has a lot of pressure, enough to blow a bullet into the bore followed by unburned powder. But it does not have the heat.
H110 and 296 can be worked from minimum to max in any case except the .454, you must go to max right away. You are stuck with a velocity the gun might not like. You are also stuck with poor accuracy from a powder burn that might not be right.
When the .454 was being experimented with Dick would use up to triplex loads of powders, at times starting with Bullseye for ignition. He also worked with pressures that would destroy some guns. That is where the SR primer came from.
We worked loads to about 55,000 psi and LP mag primers were still OK.
But accuracy was found before max loads using .460 brass, it allowed working from minimum loads without any failures.
Using SR primers and rapping off fast shots, you are only a step away from having one not ignite, sticking a bullet in the bore and firing another behind it.
We even tried Fed 150 primers without a failure but the 155 was more accurate. This was with 296 so if you want to feel safe with the .454 brass, use a different powder.
I still do not like the SR pressure without heat that can move a bullet from the case before powder burn is good.
This is the problem with the mag primer in the .44 and .45 Colt, the cases are too small for the mag primer and bullets move too fast before a good burn. This will give you a different case capacity from shot to shot and wide SD's and ES's.
I have been working with the .44 since 1956, originally with 2400 and then 296. Thousands of primer tests have shown mag primers ALWAYS tripled group sizes.
Case capacity dictates the primer that can be tolerated.
The Remington 7-1/2 has heat but you still can't reduce charges to the book starting loads. That is one of the primers we worked with and I had to have a brass rod and hammer on the bench. It still only fired all the time with max loads but accuracy was still not what the gun was capable of.

430 man, so if I want to use H110 or 296 I should use sm. rifle mag. primers? I thought using mag. primers would raise the chamber preassure? Should I use mag. primers in all magnum oowders(H110, 296, 2400 etc.)? I'm still learning when it comes to reloading so bear with me.

The SR mag primer MUST be used in the .454 with H110 and 296 and can still be a problem but the Remington 7-1/2 has good heat. Faster powders do not need them.
Chamber pressure is only raised by faster ignition, not by primer pressure. Like using a LR primer in a .475, not good.
Primer pressure is far different then heat, softer primers can cause higher pressure then high pressure primers with little heat.
I still feel that if you like the .454, use cut down .460 brass and a LP mag primer. Then work loads for accuracy only. The caliber is extremely accurate if you can work with it.
I know it is hard to understand but primers are very important. Reading books gets you nowhere and loads published for starting loads in the .454 can be dangerous.

Vihtavuori N110

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/n110-1lb-p-229.html

Hello ALL
I am getting Ready to Reload for the FIRST Time Ever.
For a 45-70, With a LOAD That is SUPPOSED to
Assimilate the 454 Using 300grn XTP
Sierra Said to Use IMR4198 at 39.0 - 43.0 Grn
This is for a Supper 14 G2
I dont Know if this Helps But HERE it is.

MikeS., I have a load for deer,hornady 250X.T.P. H110 powder-33.9 gr. over a SRprimer C.C.I. 400 which is a standard primer,this was one of Dick M. loads-writer for Shooting Times,anyway this load has always been very accurate in my gun only doing 1520f.p.s. but plenty for whitetails but this load ,like I said,is with a standard SR primer like wapitirod said you just have to find that right load,just because the load above has been very good to me doesn't mean it will be good for you -my gun is a SRH-7 1/2 barrel .454 casull

430, i will give the remington a try.

Try 4759, good velocity and less recoil then 4198. About 32.5 gr.
I had pressure excursions in my 45-70 revolver with 4198, some shots jumping from a little over 1600 fps to over 1800 and sticking brass on a few chambers. I have shot 5 shots into 5/16" at 50 yards with this powder, SR 4759. I use a Fed 155 primer.

Something to think about is a while back they did some testing with different brands of primers and found just changing brands can increase pressure by more than 6000 psi in some cases. You should always go by the load data but if you change something such as the primer drop your charge back down and work back up again. As to your question in general yes going from a standard to a magnum primer will increase pressure but every cartridge and gun are different so the effect could range from not noticeable to a high pressure condition.

I had good luck with Benchmark in my 45-70 BFR, I was using modern rifle data which is safe in the Encore but not the contender and I worked up a load pushing a 440gr Cast Performance to 1650+. Recoil was brutal but accuracy was excellent.

This is very true but it is still how the primer lights the powder. You are not raising pressure 6000 psi from primer pressure.
This is why any change in components needs a load workup.
Unfortunately, you can stick bullets in the bore working with .454 brass.
Each time it happened to us, the back of the powder charge had just turned color a little, not a single grain burned.
Seems like the primer pressure pushed the powder column and bullet out and the fire went out in the space under the powder. A little more powder reduces the space but I will never swear you will get consistent ignition.

I have never loaded the 454, but I have laoded other rounds with H110 and a very solid crimp is always mandatory. I went to a profile crimp on some cartridges and saw a better consistancy with my laods. H110 is a love it, hate it powder. It runs at the top end to perform and you have to really kick it in the rear to get it to go, but when it does it's a great powder.

430man please take no offense, just thinking out loud. If the primer is dislodging the bullet and the powder is not properly igniting it makes me wonder if the crimp could be suspect a little???

looking through my records i loaded a tad more than 3 pounds of h110 last year. it was either 30 gr in 454 with a 300xtp or 22 gr in 45lc with 300xtp. I did not have one problem with ignition. the one problem i had, was in the 454. i has a case head seperate after 4 reloads. checking the other cases with a bore scope i found that at this pressure, after 3 loads they go into the scrap pile. I have been told that this is because above 30k the case grips the cyl and the rear streches. after a few reloads the web starts to thin out.

No, crimp has very little actual affect on powder burn, case tension does the most. Experimenting with crimp for years shows no practical help for burn even when the bullet and brass is damaged.
I have shot many, many tests with 296 with NO crimp, shooting single shot and had zero problems. Accuracy was as good as hard crimps, sometimes better.
Crimp keeps the bullet in the brass under recoil so you sure do not want the next rounds in the cylinder to move forward because that also changes case capacity and can lead to a failure to ignite. You need a firm crimp but there is no need to destroy brass or the bullet.
Factory .454 brass is way over crimped, you sure do not want to do that with a cast boolit.
I use half the crimp in the .475 as I did in the .454. I depend on case tension.
Crimp only helps if your dies expand cases too much so you lose tension, but is is not that much help.