Started a new post for ease of reading and quicker load time. when I am at home with dial up it get kind of slow.

LD,
My action is not stainless. It was a bead blasted then a baked enamel finish. Just a chrome moly action (SS barrel).

RSA_LT,
LR shooting and hunting can be different things to different people. With a specialty handgun hunting I consider LR past 300 yards. Some would consider it further other closer. Most people don't have a problem discussing LR shooting (targets & varmints). Some may have problems discussing LR hunting since it has the potential of being more controversial. I would be glad to talk and learn more about both, but first I would like to hear from Gary & Dan (Administrator & Moderator) to know it is okay to open this can of worms. I am not a moderator here and want to respect any of their wishes.

Ernie...I think you and Steve have proven well enough that you have the ability to shoot extremely well at long range...your finish at the ITRC among the rifle competitors is proof enough. Discussion of this topic seems fine to me (how about you Gary??). Anyone reading this though needs to understand the time, money, and effort you have invested in order to achieve that level of proficency. Not just anyone can grab and Specialty Handgun and head for a field expecting to nail a nice buck at 350 yards.

Dan,
Appreciate the vote of confidence.
I try to make it clear that we have been doing this for awhile and that our XP's are tricked rigs that can be competitive with rifles yet designed to also hunt with. There are times when I would not attempt a 150 yard shot on game in the field depending on the conditions and the condition I am in. it is a lot more than having the right rig.

Hey the whole thing has got me wanting one like Tigger's. It looks to me like that rig might be easier to shoot in many field situations than the long barreled versions like mine.

Well then.....I'll trade you my .221FB for your .222!!

When we hunt elk hunt the only rest we have is a field rest, but when we PD shoot we take portable tables and lawn chairs with us. Our neck does not hurt at the end of the day. BTW never dismiss the stock 221 fireball XP-100. I have taken dogs out to 500 yards with it and the 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip using a 2x6 Redfield handgun scope. Of course I have put 100 rounds through my 284 Win XP per day while dog shooting. When you use your hunting rig as a LR PD rig with your hunting load you really get to know your pistol. Sort of hard on your hand though.

A thread on LR shooting? hmmmmmm!!!sounds good to me. While living in AZ and NM I got hooked on LR shooting. First targets and then coyotes, deer, etc. That was with big boomer rifles (30-378 and 338-378 weatherbys). Surgery a couple of years ago put a halt to that much recoil on the shoulder. While feeling sorry for myself and recuperating the first week after surgery, my wife dug out alot of my old hunting and shooting magazines. An article by JD Jones had me on the phone (pain medicine and all) talking specialty pistols with JD and figuring out what I needed to get started in the SP business. Tried a couple of Weatherby rear grips, didn't care much for them. As I had quite a bit of time on my hands I started to search the web for anything on Specialty Pistols. So happened that I saw a centger grip in the classifieds on this forum and purchased my first HS from Mark Hampton. I have been hooked ever since. I agree with XP, long range can mean different yardages for many of us. I am extremely impressed with Steve and Ernie's accomplshments with the SP's. I believe this post will get alot of attention and responses. Right caliber, Right rest and a ton of practice is what it takes.
Gary, may have an idea for an even more portable bench rest. I am working on it and will post after Christmas.
HAPPY HOILDAYS TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!
nmhunter

FWIW I realized today that all of my LR shots on big game in excess of 300 yards (with the exception of one buck antelope) were with the aid of a spotter/hunting buddy. We approach hunting in a tactical way. there are alot of benefits to it.

Ernie, Haven't tried longe range hunting but a number of us gave the rifle silhouette chaps a run for their money. A hunting silhouette shoot. That is handgun and rifle, field rests and positions only - no benches. Needless to say the winner was an XP100 in 7mmBR. Only problem we found was the bullet drop at 500m made dialling in scope adjustments a bit on the tough side.

My 7mmBR XP is the next project, just so many potential calibers to consider. Probably use it for Dassie (rock Hyrax) similar to your prairie dogs (possibly smaller) and they prefer living in rocky outcrops and above cliff faces. Ideal to get set up on one side of the ravine and wait for them to surface on the other. Would also use it for Springbuck (I suppose its fairly similar to your Pronghorn in size).

LT

LT,
Have you considered going up in case capacity?
7mm-08, 260 Remington or either of these in an improved case. Yes, I also like the 284 Win & the 6.5-284. Don't neglect a 243 AI or 6mmRem Imp. (the Rem case has a longer neck angives longer barrel life-so I am told) set up with an 8 twist punching out the 105 A-Max. I will have a 6mm-284 XP-100 set-up for the 105/107 ready after the first of the year (February probably).
The 6.5 cal set-up right is extremely versatile with recoil not being much of an issue since your largest for all practicality is a 140 grain bullet. It would really flatten your trajectory for competition/shoots and keep your bullet speed up enough to give you reliable penetration/bullet performance beyond what the BR case can do.
If you are going to build a XP, make sure it will do everything you want it to do.

My take on all this is quite simply, to try to get the 1st shot on target at the longest range possible. Spot and stalk hunting was the driving force behind this, since shots would often be presented at longer ranges-- especially coyotes. To do this with any degree of consistency really requires that the hunter adopt tactical sniper-type techniques in the field. This was when we started investigating applying the Burris LER scopes for downrange zeroing/windage reference, and backup reticle ranging systems (something i've really been fascinated with the last several yrs.). Running clicks, and manipulating ballistic reticles for this purpose is just so much fun.

A couple yrs. ago, i was out hunting coyotes with my wife, and we were sitting on an old weathered butte glassing a big basin. There weren't any dogs around but the sun was behind us reflecting off a sand hill waaayy down there. I found a spot on it that ranged at exactly 1000. I had the ball. plex reticle zeroed to 600 some yds. for my 6.5-284 load, and i'd applied Exbal Ballistics program for the calculated comeups to 1000 yds. in 50 yd. increments, beyond the lower plex post's 600 some 0. I told Vicky, i was gonna shoot, and got steady, and let 1 fly. Of course we didn't see any impcat, so we took a walk down there, and the bullet hit 4" left, and right on for elevation-- i dug it out of the bank, and have it here on my bookcase. Now there's no question that that was a lucky shot, but had i not had a tactical system in place-- there would have been no way i would've even come close. Using tactical systems in the field, will absolutely take the shooter to places he won't be able to go to otherwise. Many of the guys here know that already, i'm sure-- Nmhunter sounds like he's played with it some, as well as the high-power guys, no doubt.

LD,
Just realized I didn't answer a question you had asked earlier. Range on that 150 class whitetail was 160 yards. Prone position with Harris bi-pod. We (Steve) crawled a long ways to get to him. If you will look back at the pic I have on knee pads. We had to go around some other satelite bucks that were bedded too. I had Steve rattle some antlers I had brought along to get him to stand up. Another great benefit of hunting in pairs.

RSA_LT,
Had been looking over previous posts and realized I had missed one your requests too.
"XPhunter how about posting a bit about the long range handgunning. Distances, ideal calibers, etc for us who are reasonably new to the forum."

Ideal calibers/cartridges would be somewhat dependent upon the action or type of handgun you are using. For instance the COntender has limitations, but the Encore has less. Bolt actions/Falling blocks even have less than the Encore.
With the Contender I see the maximum cartridges being the Bower line (307 Winchester case improved--necked up or down). Use of these cartridges presumes a rough chamber wall for better grip of the case and the knowledge that you cannot run this case to the full potential you could in a Encore. Another great LR performer in the Contender would be the 222 Rem Mag. Improved with a 1-7 twist (75-80 VLD's). With the small casehead you can run the pressures up just high as you would on a bolt action. It is probably about the best you can do for LR (target wise) out to 1k in a Contender. I have an 18 inch Hart 1-7 twist in this cartridge to play with in a Contender (Yes, I have a Contender ).
For the stronger actions I like the cartridges based off of the 308 Win., 284 Win case, and the WSM.

I will save the distances, powders, dies, best bullets,bases, Rings, etc. for a lter post

Ernie,
What would the odds be that a Contender in 222 Rem Mag Imp with a 1-7 twist will like bullets lighter for less expensive closer range work or varmints(kinda dual-purpose)?
Cheers,
Dave

Basic rule of thumb is that you cannot overstabilize a bullet (can you in reality?-proabably). What you are talking about it shouldn't be a problem at all.

Thanks Xphunter. I intend turning an XP100 into my long range gun. Its already chambered for 7mmBR so the bolt face should not be too much of an issue. The big thing is caliber. It is to serve a dual purpose initially - target and hunting until I manage to find another XP100 action and HS silhouette type stock - new HS varmint type stock also part of project. Unfortunately getting into 7mm (on a dual purpose LR pistol)I am afraid that I may be too heavy in terms of bullet construction for our equivalent beasty to your prairie dogs - unless there are some varmint type bullets in 7mm cal which I can get mailed here. There are plenty strongly constructed bullets in 6.5;6; and 7mm to adequately take all but the heaviest of antelope.

Next potentially silly question is: at long range and handgun speeds - how do the bullets perform on stronger/tougher game?

Sscoyote: I must agree. The tactical style hunting with hunter and spotter. My hunting partner and I use a similar hunting system with spot and stalk. One will take the shot. The other is responsible for ranging and confirming the call, wrt the shot.

LT

I used a 140 NBT in both my 7-08 (14 inch) & 284 (5.75 inch) Win XP's for everything from PD's to Mule Deer. Probably am going to try the 162 A-Max in my 284 Win XP before I hang up the barrel.
Your question on bullets on big game @ longer ranges from specialty handgun velocities is the kicker question.
I have used the 140 grain Partition on my 284 Win XP for elk at longer ranges with great success. The 180 grain Sierra Game King (.501 BC) out of my Patriot XP has worked great on elk out past 400 yards. A-Max's have a great record on deer sized game, but so far have only shot 1 buck with my 6.5-284 @ 260 yards (140 AMax .550 BC). With the A-Max's you must have good presentation (treat it as you would a Nosler Balllistic Tip) which means turning down shots offered at times. I am going to be playing with some of Richard Grave's bullets (High BC's yet designed for game 142 in the 6.5 & a 190 in 30 cal.). The key is to find a bullet that has a good BC & will reliably perform at the ranges desired. The key issue is not so much your vertical in LR hunting, it is the horizontal (wind!!!).
Some varmint type bullets will act like big game bullets in some of the slower SP's on game. Since your 284 based cases perform to a 308 performance in a rifle you can use rifle data to help ask bullet makers. WSM cases will perform in the 06 rifle performance (these are rules of thumb descriptions). A bullet which may work good at 400-500 yards in a 284 Win SP may be explosive @ 100 yards.
The Nosler Accubonds are a good bullet to try also, but they have the same BC's as the NBT's. We haven't even talked about shooting at angles yet.

I figured the bullet performance issue may be problematic. I guess I need to decide between big game at distance or prairie dog types. The all purpose cartridge will remain a holy grail.Of course finding another action may be a better option, but they're pretty scarce over here, at least the action doesn't need a license over here (yet).

I think the .284 caliber and lower holds appeal. Took a look at the Lazzaroni sight, they have some cute short magnums, but I couldn't find data on the head diameter...? Would it, could it work on their 6.5 or 6mm short mag case. It may make for a fun project.

I would go with the 6.5 WSM over the Lazz case (and I even own a 7.82 PAtriot XP). The lazz case head is larger than the WSM (and it is slightly larger in capacity) but it can be done in a XP. A 6.5WSM is more than enough for the .264 diamater and it will work on bigger game with the right bullet. Lazz brass is extremely expensive. I would have gone with a WSM when I had mine built but the WSM's didn't exist when my Patriot XP was built. You should get close to 6.5-06 rifle MV's. Fiftydriver has a 6.5 WSM XP and is still doing some load development with it. I do know that with my 6.5-284 XP that a PD will not survive @ 1k (I am not implying one shot hit or even second shot). Hitting clay pigeons (blue rock) at 1k is a hoot
You have to work harder @ 6mm To get high BC's and barrel life can be an issue for repeated shooting like PD's. I wouldn't go over a 6-284 or 6mm Rem AI. I will have a Broughton Barrel 6-284 XP soon after the first of the year. then I will have a better idea of what it is capable of. HArd to give advice when you haven't used it and expereinced it.

Well-covered so far-- i f i were gonna do it again, i'd probably go for the 7 WSM. The case is as big as it gets for practical use, is a factory case that u don't have to jump thru hoops to make, and more importantly the higher BC/SD 7mm bullets are very well represented in the industry these days. I already know the 6.5 140 A-Max will work on coyotes beyond 400 yds. out of my 6.5-284 handgun, and if there is 1 bullet out there that "could" fit the bill for the ultimate LR target/varmint/medium game bullet it has to be the 162 A-Max. Heck that sucker has a .625 BC. That'll shoot ground squirrels @ a hundred, deer and antelope @ ???, then turn around and shoot silhouettes @ 1K, and probably beat the pants off that dude with the funky yellow gun shooting targets @ 1K.

Steve and Ernie thanks for all the advice. Probably will opt for a 6.5 of some sort. Have a week to sit at home and ponder. Thanks again for the insight. Whichever way it goes it should make a great project.

LT

I'm setting here with a new 7BR barrel and was wondering if it could be transformed into a 7WSM. It is a new heavy Encore barrel. I have thought about either having my XP rebarreled to a 6.5x284. If the Encore barrel would work for a 7WSM that might be better for me.

Mike

I would opt for a 284 or 280 Rem Ackley Improved in the Encore of the WSM. Just personal preference here, in that I believe one can't run the WSM cases to the same level as bolt rigs in the break-open actions. If you can be content with some less than bolt action performance then I would go for it. XP in 6.5-284 sounds good to me.

I've got a .280 Rem AI (in a rifle... ...Rem 700 built by Bullberry w/ 24" tube, .750" muzzle, factory 3# trigger, and Burris 6-18X.) and it is one heck of a shooting cartridge!! Getting 3000fps with 168gr 7mm SMK's. At 300 yards it will shoot around .5 MOA...and at 100yds it will about in the .3's. In the hands of someone more skilled than I at longer ranges I'm sure it would do better.

I must add that shoting at extreme distances with an XP or Tc is very doable. One must just get out and practice. Not just a couple times a year either. We (cousin and I) go out and shoot every other week or so(sometimes every day for days). We practice in the field out to 600 yards. We shoot in different seasons, climates and differnt handguns. Both of us have taken several deer at over 400 yards. Me with my trusty 338/350 xp and My cousin with his 338-06 AI encore. Having said that I must add that I have missed some deer as close as 200 yards....Usually it was do to not being properly rested. With a good rest, good glass and a lot of practice and knowing your ballistics you can shoot a Loooooong way with a pistol. A word on balistics. I do use books and programs as a reference...BUT THEY ARE NOT GOSPEL...go out and shoot the distances you plan on hunting and do it often. I have found at the longer ranges that there can be dispcrepencies from a ballistcs chart(probably due to conditions outside). With practice we see sub 3 inch groups at 300+ yards on a good day. Good luck to you all and have a great new year.
PS I also believe that big game can be harvested with a bow out to 80 yards or so(it just takes practice). I have a buddy that routinely shoots antelope at 100 yards + one at 140 yards. HE is a very good shot. But that is for another discsion board.
Anthony

Ditto on shooting at the actual distances and a lot of it. Because of my expereince with Exbal and the known accuracy of my 7.82 Patriot allowed me to determine that my Ballistic Plex reticle was not set-up right. By shooting distances I set up my own zero's in the field.
When all was said and done the wrong reticle had been put in and that what threw everything off. If I had simply trusted the data from the scope and Exbal without actually checking it in the field before the hunt I could have a wounded or missed animal, not to mention a lot of frustration.
One of the next steps for us is computing the changing weather conditions against Exbal to see if it makes a difference for the ditances considered. Also using the ACI's (Angle Cosine Indicator) to determine proper trajectory when shooting at angles.
I guess in one way we are turning into tactical nerds. As a teenager I thought I would never have any use for math (I guess God has a sense of humor). Now I rely on it almost every time I shoot.

Tactical nerds is about right. To get thet 1st shot on target at long-range under field conditions means that u MUST adopt tactical techniques, i.e. u must become sort of a hunter/sniper in a way. Ever take a look at that ballistic plex reticle real good (heck simple plex, for that matter)? Every part of that reticle should be put to work, and can be used to establish a backup modifed mil-ranging system with the upper post of the reticle (when the laser doesn;t cooperate), a point blank range optical ranging system, and an angular windage reference as a sort of "plex of angle" system with the horizontal plex posts. Every little facet needs to be investigated to learn if it has an application that can be put to use.

You guys hitting little targets at 1000 yards with handguns,

ARE NOT NERDS!!

In my book that's cool!!

Thks. Tigger-- it sure is neat when u make a connection way out there-- i'll be fascinated with it till the day i die, i think.