My 15 year old son was recently drawn for a cow elk tag for December 2012 in Kentucky. He really wants to hunt with a handgun but his size and hand strength would limit him to a 10-inch contender in .357. He has killed deer with this pistol from both a tree stand and a ground blind and he shoots it quite well.

The Buffalo Bore 180 grain cast load in this pistol shoots right at 1,800 fps and so this particular load in this pistol more than satisfies the Kentucky requirements of a minimum 550 ft/lbs at 100 yards (which I guess is a debatable standard but its what is allowed).

At any rate, I sure don't want to set him up to fail and he could certainly leave the pistol at home and use a rifle. That said, I would appreciate your opinions on this setup for cow elk at 75 yards or less.

Thanks

In the closed breech of the Contender the 357 shines. Since most barrels have plenty of room in the chamber you can stick a 180 out a bit and push that bad boy like a 360DW, and even get close to 357 Max numbers. That Buff Bore load is right there too. Within respectful range it will kill an elk if the shooter can put it in the right place.

Has he killed any other animals with it? How much is he shooting on a regular basis?

He has killed 3 deer with it and we shoot every couple of weeks especially during the summer. We practice quite a bit with some 158 grain handloads off shooting sticks but he has fired probably six boxes of the buffalo bore (its expensive).

I have of course been with him when he was hunting with it and he stayed a lot more composed than I did. I have to say, hunting with my son while he was using his handgun is the best times we have ever had in the woods.

Here is a pick of the last deer he killed with it. Good shot placement from 52 yards.

[img]http://tinypic.com/r/whd1d4/6[/img]

TCScout,

I am just going to read this post and not give MHO as Gary has this totally under control.

What I will humbly mention in the meantime though is:

Obvious Factors:

1. Range
2. Shooter ability
3. Shooter experience (not the same) (Exciteable as in ELK FEVER?) I still get that sometimes!
4. Shot placement
5. Bullet construction and design
6. Angle of bullet impact to animal

We all know a .22 will kill an elk; that aside, I bow out.

Thank you for listening.

Gregg

PS: I was unable to get the photo of your son with his deer to come up.

PPS: TC Scout, No matter how the other opinions play out, I applaud you for your times hunting with your son. I agree: it is the best!!!

Not sure what I did wrong on the picture.

I appreciate the factors you mentioned. And I realize that shooter experience and shooter ability and elk fever are not as objective as range, bullet type, etc.

I won't even consider letting him hunt an elk with this pistol unless I feel comfortable that he and I have done all we can to maximize his ability before we go hunting (which would include a lot of range time and a few more deer hunts in the interim) That said, he might not be ready.

I guess my main question has to do with any thoughts you may have regarding a 180 grain hard cast .357 caliber bullet for elk. Assuming good shot placement from a shot taken at fairly close range, do you all think a non-expanding bullet would work well on elk?

Sorry guys/gals, but I was asked outright; so in due respect, I will give my opinion:

Yes.

If/when you are successful, post pics and let us know!

Gregg

The bullet is capable. It appears your son shoots the t/c well. It also appears he has a maturity in the field that many adults do not have. Just reinforce the ethics and enjoy the elk hunt with him.

My .02

NICE PIC!!




A 180gr projectile at 1800fps is stout stuff… My 15in Max will only do 200 more FPS…

I think the hard cast is the way to go, but that is JMHO, and I have never shot an elk before...

But I do look at it this way, "I" will use a hard cast when I get to go on an elk hunt one day.

Excellent; a pic is worth a thousand words.

I wish I had gotten started hunting with handguns when I was 15! Congrats to him for drawing a KY elk tag. They're not that easy to draw, are they? Very cool.

i'm sure it'd work, however, i'm not sure why not a 44 mag. my 15 year old daughter shoots her smith alot and i've got her shooting some really mellow hardcast loads that your son wouldn't have to worry about angle at all and would certainly do the job and i'm sure he'd handle the loads just fine as i'm sure he's bigger and stronger than she is. in fact i'm willing to bet the loads she's shooting don't kick worse than that 357 load.

That's a great photo and it looks like the young man is on the right path! I too would lean more towards the .429 Magnum.

I have to agree with the .44magnum crowd.

While a 180gr BB from a .357 contender is no slouch I think that it is riiiiiiiight at that marginal level and does not really give you a whole lot of lattitude for a less than perfect shot.

A medium loaded .44mag out of a contender would be a much better choice.

Just for the sake of comparison, looking at the Taylor KO number for these two rounds:

180gr .357 @ 1800fps = TKO 16
280gr .44 @ 1250fps = TKO 21

That is a 31% increase if you subscribe to the TKO as an indicator of killing power.

I personally am not a 357 fan. However, in reality it is a 35 caliber bullet, 180 gr, striking at some velocity within 75 yds. If this discussion involved a 35 Remington rifle also shooting a 180 gr bullet, I would expect that most would think that it would be effective out to 150 yds or more on a cow. I expect that the 357 contender would produce similar results at 75 yds.

It is very interesting to me that many of us believe that animals are much more difficult to kill now, than they were years ago. IMHO, they are the same animals. They were killed with bows, muzzle loaders, black powder cartridges, "hot" newly introduced smokeless powder cartridges (30-30), etc. Today, most elk hunters think they need a XYZ super magnum to kill an elk. I do not believe that.

It is still much more important ---- where you hit them, rather than what you hit them with. Take the 357 & make a good shot. He will be OK.

wtroper that was my thinking as well. it is more of a moderate rifle round than a handgun round. I say have at it a practical ranges and make it count

It sounds like he's capable and so is the cartridge if everything is perfect. My biggest concern would be having an adequate blood trail to follow if it went very far.

Guys,
Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated. I have considered stepping him up to a .44 and may do that. It would have to be something on the higher end to meet the energy requirement but it would not necessarily need to be a really hot load. Its just that he shoots the .357 pretty darn good and he is comfortable with the recoil.

As far as him getting drawn, I have a hunting buddy that calls him "Horseshoe" referring to what is apparently a small solid gold object on his person in a particular place that seems to manifest itself much of the time and is such a way that he seems to be lucky. Best thing is he just likes to hunt.

I am a little concerned about a scant blood trail myself.

Again, many thanks.

do it right, stay within your predicted range and place your shjot and you won't have a problem, compromise those two rules and it will look like a bad idea.

In a nutshell how much more velocity & energy could be mustered out of a 10" .357 MAX? It would seem a simple conversion to have your barrel rechambered if it would provide better ballistics and peace of mind.

Then again I have a book in my possession by the late Bob Milek entitled Handgun Hunting Across America. On the chapter on Elk the late Bob Milek and the late Steve Herrett are up on the Salmon River in Idaho hunting Elk with 10" T/C Contenders Chambered for the .357 Herrett. If memory serves me correctly (I'd have to go re-read the article to be sure) they were shooting a .357 Speer 140gr. Jacketed Hollow Point at something like 2000 FPS. In regards to Milek's Bull Elk he had to shoot it numerous times and finally realized that he was not penetrating the shoulder. The folowing shot (at much greater range than he said he should have been shooting at) he put behind the shoulder and the Bull collapsed.

Again I'd have to go read the article again to be sure of the velocity, Energy and range but the point is he was shooting a Jacketed Hollow Point meant for a .357 Magnum, and not a hard cast bullet that at least in theory should provide for much greater penetration.

The bottom line is if it is legal, if your on can restrict himself to a certain range (pre determined) and put the bullet in the right place I am sure you'll be eating Elk.

But then what do I know, I have never hunted Elk, and never shot a .357 Magnum Contender.

Good luck on the hunt to your son regardless of what he chooses to hunt with.

Larry

not sure what jacketed .357 bullet would be designed to hold together at 2000fps but it sounds like a rather poor idea to begin with. i know of only a few 454 bullets designed to hold together at that velocity and i would imagine it would be a nice varmint round. if ya use a hardcast i'd make sure you do some testing to make sure it stays together at that velocity.

Yup. Can't drive the cast bullet that hard, a common mistake. The bullet I would be comfortable to use at those velocities would be the Punch.

Easier to go with a bigger bore. JMHO.

Given the choice, I will take volume over velocity as well, relatively speaking.

I don't know how applicable it would be in a hunting consideration but I can say that we shot the Buffalo Bore 180 hard cast during part of a science experiment my son did for 7th grade.

He shot the Buffalo Bore and a Swift 180 grain A-frame into wet phone books tightly bound together with bailing wire. The 180 grain cast bullet penetrated 19 inches worth of phone books and held together perfectly - cut a straight hole too. He got about 7 inches with the A-frame.

I am not worried about that particular cast bullet falling apart, but I do understand the volume over velocity argument.

I was simply stating that when you push them too fast, you can compromise their performance by exceeding their ability to keep their shape.

I would start the young man on the 44mag with 180gr at first then as summer goes on I would up the bullet weight. If he don't like the heaveier bullets then he could stay with the 180gr. That way he want loose any thing and then when he is ready he will be use to the 44.

I'll be the oddball here and say aside from a 44 Contender barrel you can go with the 45 Colt. You can start him with cowboy action loads and take it up until he reaches his tolerance. The 45 will excede what the 44 is capable of on the top end.

I gotta throw my .02 in!
Your original question was would .358 hardcast @ 1800 fps properly plased by a competent young shooter do the job on a cow elk. I believe it would do it quite well!!!

Would it be my 1st choice? You didn't ask that question (But the answer is Nope). BUT, I have no doubt that in your son's capable & experienced hands it will work & might be his best choice.

IMO the 357 might work great in the "right situation". But if you would move up the ladder to say the 44 mag or 45 colt you will get a few more "right situations"

Also if this is a once in a lifetime or an extremely hard to draw hunt. I would go all out on a "more proper" (if there is such a thing) elk cartridge. I would hate to think I would come home empty handed (and never get to hunt that hunt again)..........all because I had to pass a shot, or worse yet, not get the job done with a 357.

I believe the 357 will do the job. How about you do the ol switcheroo with a 44 mag meaning get him started shooting mellow 44 mag reloads and when you go hunting slip in a hot 44 mag he wont even know the difference he will be to excited to care. Thats what my dad did when i killed my first turkey. I practice with low brass 20 gauge but he slipped in a 3 in magnum and I killed the turkey and didnt even know about it until afterwards.

That sounds good, but would most likely change the point of impact. Bullet placement is too important to take that chance. You could let him try the 44 mag and see how he shoots it.....if any problems stay with 357. The 357 will perform.

You beat me to it! The .44 Mag load doesn't necessarily have to be so hot.

I am considering the .44 magnum and the only reason I have not started up some loads for him to shoot is that I do not have one at this point other than a Desert Eagle. So before I purchase a contender barrel I really want to think this through.

Years ago I loaded and shot a lot of cast bullets through a couple of Redhawks, but those were all hotter loads. So I have some experience there and I know I could work up some medium range loads that you guys are talking about.

That said, if I were to go with a 275 or 300 grain hard cast I could push it at 1100 fps and meet the Kentucky requirement of 550 ft/lbs at 100 yards. I know that velocity is not the be-all-end-all factor and that weight and diameter are strong considerations in the equation - but again I have to meet the standard so I have to look at velocity.

I could obviously push faster than 1100 fps but then I am concerned its going to bite him pretty good (I could be wrong about that because I have never shot a contender in .44 mag myself). What do you guys think - at 1100 fps in the .44 am I really gaining over the 180 grain bullet in the .357 at 1800? Secondly, if I push the .44 hard cast faster will it result in some level of recoil he might not be able to handle.

In reality, the only way I can answer that is to try it, but I wanted to know some more about what you guys thought before I invest in another barrel, and possibly another scope.

Thanks again for all of the input, it is much appreciated.

If you sight it in to the hotter load you are good to go and chances are the lighter load will be close enough for practice

Make sure if you don't already have them get a set of Pachmayr decelerator grips for the G2 and it will make a night and day difference in percieved recoil.

Good luck...shot placement

Hornady makes a good 180 gr X.T.P. if a guy wanted a hollowpoint that wouldn't come apart like the lighter weights and should penetrate pretty good.

Well the season finally arrived and my boy was fortunate enough to fill his tag today. Picture and details are at "Kentucky Elk" under recent photos.