Defensive pistol rounds are designed for defense against two legged varmints..and they are by virtue of their case capacity and bullet selection pretty limited. I would never attempt to hunt big game with even a 45 acp. 10mm is my bottom line cartridge and my only gun is a s&w 6 in. revolver. Still I think you can get better performance than that from huntig loads for 357 magnum..Revolvers have the advantage over autos they get those 180 grain plus bullets moving along 1100,1200,1300, 1400fps thats what I call a hunting load, not sub 1000 fps.

\\Hey rbebecker. The .45 Super will shoot a 230gr bullet 1300fps from a 6" barrel even though I don't do that most of the time. We have chronied .357s with 180grs out of 6" revolvers and never got close to 1400fps which my super with a 185 does with ease. The .45 Super and .460 rowland are a whole new ball of wax. reflex264

Looks like I need to find a model 20 and see if it will fit my short fat paws. The only problem is it is hard to find 10mm ammo around here. I do reload but not for an auto.

You're right reflex the Super is definitely in the magnum class of cartridge. I think the 10mm and 357 mag are pretty evenly matched though. If you go by load tables looks like the 357 has the slight edge. Of course it could be that most of the 10mm data is from shorter barrels 5" semiauto pistols , but then you would think not having a cylinder gap would help velocity. Whoa I see here 180 grain XTP with 13 grains of AA No. 9 at 1437fps from a Desert Eagle.357.but not even close to your 45 super.

Glocks are ugly and they definitly are not sexy..but my daily carry is G27. When Im in the woods theres a 44 on my belt. But glocks carry much lighter than revolvers and I would not hesitate to carry your glock in the woods, and I would probably feel comfortable hunting with it.

A 6" barrel with no venting makes a world of difference. At the top end 900fps can be reached with a .45 Super with a 6" barrel. Buffalo Bore's 255gr Super load rated at 1075fps goes 1130fps from my 6" barrel. Hadloaded 230s can hit 1350 from the 6" tube. reflex264

Funny thing about loadbooks, a member asked about loads for his S&W mod 28 for a 180 grain xtp bullet in hornady section they list 10.5 grains AA no9 as max load 1050 fps. If you flip over to the Accurate Arms table further on in the book Accurate lists 11.7 grains as starting load 11.7 grains and maxload of 13.0 grains for a velocity of 1437 fps from their 8 in. testbarrel.Who do you believe?

I see nothing wrong with Tupperware:) It is a quality product. Just kidding. There are many Glock fans around and a dedicated group using them for Deer and Hogs.

I have noticed that about loadbooks. When using them I usualy look at all possibilities first. reflex264

niece piece,o ted nugent uses his 10mm glock for hunting game too.

R,

This really explains why one source for your reloads is really never enough. IT can be enough to build safe loads, but you might find you are leaving some velocity on the table. And as you noted, you really need to study and understand what they are using for a test vehicle. And especially if they are actually pressure tested. I know Hodgdon's is great about always giving pressure.

I can tell you without hesitation that a test barrel mounted in a fixture is about a million miles away from your actual firearm where you will have handful of variables like unsupported throat, magazine feeding and all the variables of your gun fitment that have to be factored in. You have pressure that is safe for the brass. Pressure that is safe for the brass in your gun. And pressure that will not beat your gun into a pile of parts. These may or may not coincide ;^)

Craig

Exactly. reflex264

Not putting down the Glocks but here in Kansas they don't have a long enough case length in any of the rounds that you've mentioned.

FIREARMS
Centerfire rifles and handguns that are not fully automatic and that fire a bullet larger than .23 inches in diameter and that use a cartridge case that is 1.280 inches or more in length (except that elk require a bullet larger than .25 inches in diameter a cartridge case length of 1.750 or longer), while using only hard-cast solid lead, soft point, hollow point, or other expanding bullets

http://www.kdwpt.state.ks.us/news/Hunting/Hunting-Regulations/Deer/Legal-Equipment

If the rounds were legal I know a bunch of guys who would be using them. I think its cool that people are hunting with them but here if you want to hunt big game like pronghorn or deer you need longer case lengths.

Thats why I have a variety of handguns to hunt with. Tn's revised law makes any centerfire handgun legal, even for elk!!!!! I guess TWRA expects common sense to play a part but we know there will be some crazy out there with a Raven .25ACP. reflex264

so I was cruising around youtube when I game across a video titled GLOCK Hunting-Big Game Hunting With a Glock and it really made me think of this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2IG6t85Jg&feature=related

That is just flat out cool. As long as proper ammo is used they get it done just fine. reflex264

Yeah the right ammo and great shot placement make a difference, they had another video posted where they went from deer hunting with their glocks to shooting nutria, if you're hitting nutria which are a smaller target its great practice, and on anther those same guys were shooting p-dogs. practice makes perfect, not to mention its fun, the nutria reminded me of shooting armadillos here. just another way to keep you familar with your equipment

We have had a couple of threads on the Warren video. What is neat about this site is that we can talk and discuss. I am not sure how the Glock forums go, but mention hunting on a 1911 forum and it is about like poking a skunk with a stick :^)

Reflex, I have only had a chance to shoot it once, but I have a new project for my 1911 45/Super/Rowland. I had a beat to death Colt S70 blue slide that I just had milled for a low mount JPoint. I installed a comped Clark 45acp barrel, and am working up more 45Super loads with it. So it is a "spare" slide and barrel to use on my SS s70 lower.

On my one outting to get the red dot roughly adjusted, it was pretty much tearing a ragged hole at 25 yards from the bench. Even with Winchester White box 45acp's ;^) Busted a few small rocks at 50 yards, and the redot is really gonna make it a fun hunting gun combo.

Craig

Sounds like a neat project. You sound like me, too many projects!!!!

As long as you are on the right part of the glock forum hunting is a normal discussion.

I just hate to limit myself to one type of handgun to hunt with. I enjoy them all. The Glock openned up a new and fun window of oppertunity. I can carry it in the rain and not worry about it while some of my handguns will never see rain. As long as proper loads are used and the distance is respected I don't see a problem with it. Any deer or hog that gets within 50 yards of me is in trouble! reflex264

I picked up a model 35 last saturday. Now my question is which ammo do I use for hogs and deer? I have looked at ballistic charts and the 155 grainers have more ft/lbs of energy. I don't reload for the autos. Which type and weight of bullet would you recommend?

I would lean toward the 180grs for more penetration. As long as you keep shot reasonable you should do just fine. Shot placement is everything when hunting with a handgun. reflex264

I have a G20 I hunt with. I have had good luck with 180 grain loads a little over 1200 fps. Double tap advertises another 100 fps and I have loading data that will match that but the accuracy was headed downhill before I got that high. Thinking of trying double taps 200 grain load for hogs. I haven't had a problem with 180's on hogs but I have only been comfortable taking ear shots on anything with thick shoulders.

I have been thinking about a G20SF with a 6" barrel. It should work great on hogs. reflex264

I always carry my glock 10mm while hunting deer in Minnesota, got a 8 point a couple years ago. I load mine with hornady 200 gr XTP's.

I see a Glock 20 in my future.

Was thinking about a conversion for my 21 too 10mm.

Give the .460 Rowland a look also. Nearly 1000ftlbs and everyone I know of that used the real Rowland conversion says they are super accurate and run perfectly. reflex264

I have a 6" barrel for my G20 on the way. Just this afternoon I mounted a J Point sight into the rear sight slot. Nice package. Can't wait to finalize sighting in with the 6" barrel. This was to be a backup piece, however it may be nice to use in a tree stand in 50 yards or less. Easy to attach a simple lanyard also. Mingokid.

Mingo,

I switched my Leupold Delta Point onto my low mount 1911 for this hunting season, as I really like the view through the glass better than the JPoint. But the Jpoint certainly has a smaller and crisper dot for me. Decisions decisions... But your are correct, a micro-dot on the back of a handgun really does not alter the carrying in any real bad way.

I think a lot of us are awaiting the big brown truck right now. Good luck waiting....

Craig

I'm a big fan of Glock pistol. Reliable and accurate. My 9mm stays in the 10 ring at 50 which is better than many of the revolvers I've used. The idea of getting a G21 and converting to 460 Rowland has appeal.

Reflex mentioned "real Rowland conversions". Not knowing the in and outs of Rowland issues, can you explain what are "real" conversions and who does them.

From what I've read, you're limited to projectiles with a max weight of 250grains. How well will those weights work on big game such as Elk, bear etc and large sized boars (especially those with heavy cartilage in the shoulder/chest area?

Hunter,

I am not sure exactly what Reflex means as it relates to the Glock, but in a 1911 there are things that need to be done to the gun to really do a proper conversion. This assumes you are using a proper conversion unit.

As to the bullets, I can tell you that while 250 may not technically be the max weight, once you go beyond 230 grain ACP bullets, you are using what are essentially 45 Colt or 454 casull bullets usually sized at .452. As such there become limitations as to what your gun/chamber can take as they relate to pressure and seating of the bullets.

As to what will work, it is really hard to find a lot of "results" by folks with the heavier bullets when you search by Rowland. As such, you basically need to see how the folks are doing running medium warm 45 Colt loads. 250's at 1000-1100 fps and similar. Most Rowland users seem to like the 230 XTP, and you can usually find more info out on how this bullet is working.

You have to be very selective on the bullet choice, because the Rowland runs way faster than an ACP, but way slower than a 454 Casull. So may of the bullets like the Hornady line of XTP's may or may not work as designed. Their Mag line in XTP's do not open as dramatically as there non-magnum line (i.e. 250 XTP v. 240 XTP mag).

I do not have any real world animal results with my Rowland, as I am only getting serious this year with hunting with mine. I have wet print tested a lot of bullets, so I can give you some paper ideas (I know hate on me ;)). And keeping in mind that there is a difference between hunting with a bullet, and perhaps having one for defense.

In the cast, all of the usual suspect 45 Colt bullets make big deep holes. These are the hard cast 250-255 typical swc to lbt type bullets. Lots of meplat. beartooth has a 225 TC hardcast that has a slightly smaller meplat, but it penetrates a lot further than the XTPs in print. You can find a lot of info on results from folks using these type of bullets. I have found that the 230, 240 Mag and 250 non-mag seem to penetrate to similar depths in paper, the difference being some jacket separation with the 230 and 250, where as the 240 mag is a little smaller in size but no separation.

I have never hunted a hog, but based on my testing and looking at pictures of their shoulder areas, I think I would tend to the hard cast heavier weights. If I were hunting with an XTP type bullet, I think I would be very picky about shots, and try and avoid skeletal structure of any critter. Beyond that, you start to get into the old cast v. jacket discussions. I do feel very confident that with a proper jacketed bullet, a broadside shot on any 4 legged critter (perhaps this side of moose or serious sized bear) will reach the heart lungs as long as you can avoid big bones.

This window of handgun hunting (1911's and Glocks) is pretty narrow, so you really have to scour for info, and you will probably have to be a good handloader, and bullet tester. Folks like to say the Rowland is similar to a 44 mag. It is on paper, at the low end of the 44 mag. A more realistic thought approach is that the Rowland is more like the 10mm.

Craig

I was refering to the "homemade" as I call them Rowland conversions on G21 glocks. You will find several people have done it just be reaming a barrel deep then sticking bigger springs in the gun. As far as I am concerned this is an accident waiting to happen. Rowland heat treats his barrels then uses a combination of springs and a comp to get the slide speed correct.

As far as bullets go I searched before and found lots of gents hunting with supers and Rowlands. When I get time I will search a post some links.

Buffalo Bore factory .460 ammo sends a 255 out the barrel at 1300fps. That will kill a elk or bear no problem. I am still working on the cast bullet thing to figure out which bullet I am going to cast for the super---when I get time. Right now a hard cast 230gr truncated cone looks to be about right.

Buffalo Bore factory .45 Super ammo with the 255gr goes 1130fps from my converted Glock. That would kill any hog on the planet. reflex264

460 Rowland comparable to 10mm Auto, no. 460 Rowland comparable to 10mm Magnum, yes. 41 Rem mag, yes. 44 auto mag, yes. Short barreled 240 gr 44 rem mag, yes.

Moving 230 gr slugs at 1300 is nothing to laugh at. 185's at 1550 is out of 10mm auto territory.

Humphrey,

I was simply trying to help Hunter with his research on bullets and use with my comparison. It will be easier to find posts and info with folks using the 10mm for hunting than folks using the other rounds you noted, or even the short barreled 44 mag ;^). I do not know if the Glock forums are like the 1911 forums, but I see more mention of the Rowland as an alternative to the 10mm in those type of 10mm threads. In terms of autoloading hunting popularity, right now the 10mm is where the haps are

Craig

Both Glocks and the 1911 platform have one thing in common as far as a hunting semi-auto, they are relatively inexpensive. Either one can be stepped into for $800 bucks and be taking North American game with ease. On both the 10mm auto is the popular choice for the more high powered offerings as it is readily available. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get 10mm ammo at walmart. 460 Rowland not so much. Is the extra power worth the extra hassle of the Rowland, oh yes!

Yep a 10MM will handle most situations just fine but having the extra UMPHHHH of the Rowland would be nice in a lot of situations. The 230gr unicore bullet from the Rowland would probably handle elk just fine. The only time I think muzzle energy is critical is when you are using some of the energy to damage the bullet in order for it to do its job. This is where I believe the Rowland and even the super with a 6" barrel win the battle. reflex264

Just to stir things up a little, I am working with a 45 Super pressing it to low Rowland range on my 1911. I have a ton of experience with this, and my barrel is Clark compensated on a gun set up for the Rowland. The gun has been modified extensively, my chamber has more case head support than all of my Rowlands, and I have tested the Starline 45 Super brass for this type of experimenting.

The "stink" is right now I am testing the Barnes 185 Tax-Xpb bullet. Is is way lighter than I typically like, but I have had so much good experience with Barnes in rifle bullets which are also usually light for caliber. I have already left the 10mm and 45+p in the rear window. An interesting thing I am seeing is that the comp really seems to be coming into its own with the lighter bullet. I have worked with 250's and 230's in the Rowland and Super, and granted heavier bullets will recoil more, but these 185's are extremely easy to shoot.

Barnes told me there is no upper end to velocity with this bullet, so I obviously need to do some testing on this part of it, but I am finding my results interesting to say the least.

And as these are sized .451 I am not seeing the pressure issues using .452 jacketed Colt 45 bullets. With the .452 jacketed bullets, I am definately seeing what look to be limitations with the throat/leade of the Rowland and Super barrels that I have tested in my 1911's.

Craig

Keep us posted. That sounds very interesting. I find with my non-ported super barrel I am already at low level .460 Velocities. I can get 185 Noslers out at 1450fps from the 6" tube. Buffalo bore 255grs go 1130fps from that barrel. reflex264

To update,

It looks like 1375ish is about my top end with the Barnes 185. I can get the Nosler 230 FMJFP and the 230 XTP up to 1200 safely in my gun. Again, my gun is a 1911, set up for the Rowland and I am using a compensated barrel.

The interesting thing is I did some extreme penetration testing, in dry pack paper. This is usually considered pretty hard on bullets. The FMJFP managed to get through about 6 inches, and was behind the pack, at the base of the tree. Not a fmj pencil type hole in the paper at all. The XTP did not make it through the paper, and the core and jacket had separated. The 185 Barnes cut an extremely wide hole through the paper, and went into the tree. I had a ton of confetti to pick up, as the Barnes acted just like a very large hole punch, cutting a wide reverse cone shape all the way through and on into the tree. I have done a fair amount of wet and dry bullet testing over the years, and I definately had "wow, that is very interesting" moment. Hey Reflex, wanna loan me your Bufallo

I now need to see how my poa/poi looks for the various loads.

Craig

Edit: never mentioned that I am doing this testing for a reason other than being a speed freak or abuser of fine arms. In Colorado you need 550 fpe @ 50 yards to be legal. With 230 grain bullets, this is in the 1100 fps range (min) and 1300 fps for the 185's.

Good testing. I also loaded some 200grXTP which are supposed to be much tougher than the 230grs. From the 6" barrel I should be around 1400fps. I am going to have to give the barnes a try. reflex264