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"Black Gun" Thoughts #117297 09/06/2012 3:03 PM
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TCTex. Offline OP
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I don’t even have the funds right know but I am asking questions to get my brain in the right mindset.

I was looking at the 223 vs. 300 Whisper in a black gun platform. I think the biggest difference would be ammo availability and cost. But I reload most of what I shoot and I wouldn’t plan on going through 1000 rounds in a section. So with that in mind, I have been looking at the 300 openly.

Any thoughts?


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117302 09/06/2012 3:30 PM
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Whats your use for the rifle, and what are your goals. Looking for long range accuracy, hunting, plinking toy?


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117306 09/06/2012 5:04 PM
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If you're planning for this to be a SHTF gun in addition to a plinker, I would go with the 223. In a SHTF situation, the odds of finding components for 300 Whisper will be less likely than being able to find .223 ammo. Not to mention the extra time and effort involved reloading which could be put to better use in an already stressful situation. You can't always count on having access to your stash of ammo/components.

If you are just looking for a fun gun, the 300 would be awesome in an AR. You could look at getting an upper in both rounds.


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
Osborne Russell Journal of a Trapper


Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: pab1] #117310 09/06/2012 5:38 PM
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I had a 223 sold it. Built a 300 Black Out upper Just to get a little more hit power.

Starting to get hogs this away. 223 just makes them mad somtimes.


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: pab1] #117315 09/06/2012 6:05 PM
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TCTex. Offline OP
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The original plans were to use it for sporting purposes. My original idea was to use it suppressed with heavy bullets in the 300 Whisper platform. Range, well, I usually don’t shoot past 300 anyhow, but I know either one would work for me in my needs in a “oh crap” moment.

Pab, If I got the 300 Whisper, I think you are right on with the assessment of purchasing a 223 upper.

BFR, the hogs were the reason I was thinking the 300 in the first place.

Right now I am just thinking out loud and trying to get my ducks in a row…


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117321 09/06/2012 8:29 PM
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wapitirod Offline
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I'd start with a complete gun with a 5.56 upper on it and then add uppers like the 300 or whatever else you want.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: wapitirod] #117325 09/06/2012 8:38 PM
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I am fan of the grendal in a standeard ar15 package, gives you a bit more ass for longer shots and is a better hog gun IMHO,
Only down side is brass is not cheap and ar's chew brass up,

If a 30 cal is desired why not go with a 308 AR 10 platform, alot cheaper for brass?

I am just spitballing


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117326 09/06/2012 8:43 PM
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The August Guns and Ammo has a good article and handload data for the AAC Blackout/Whisper. It discusses it's usefulness for deer hunting and home defense.

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: Jeff686] #117331 09/07/2012 12:13 AM
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I just started into the 6.5 grendel world. Surprising cartridge and as of Feb. 2012 SAAMI approved this round. Essentially a patent. Soon thereafter Hornady began serious loading with an optimized 123 gr Amax bullet for the grendel. Now Wolf ammo is due out later this year, much less expensive practice or plinking. I was all onboard for the 300 whisper, blackout, aau... The
ballistics are all for the grendel after 50 to 100 yards. For full disclosure I have a few AR 15's in 5.56's and an AR 10 in .308/7.62. For rifle hunting this year , the grendel gets the nod. The main thing is , spend your thoughts before you spend the dollars. Honestly, I don't think youcan choose wrong as long as you get what "You" arrive upon. Have fun and good luck. Mingokid.


I know not what the future holds but, I know who holds the future!
Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: mingokid] #117335 09/07/2012 12:33 AM
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If you are getting a supressor, I would get it in the works first. Might take 2 months might take 6 months or more. I would get a 30 caliber supressor and you can use it on everything from .17 to the 30 caliber rounds.

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: Jeff686] #117350 09/07/2012 5:48 AM
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Gregg Richter Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jeff686
The August Guns and Ammo has a good article and handload data for the AAC Blackout/Whisper. It discusses it's usefulness for deer hunting and home defense.


Jeff, I do not get that mag but am interested in that article. What would it take to have you photo copy the article and send it to me?

Thanks, Gregg

BTW: I have also been "considering" the .300 W and have talked to JD Jones quite a bit about it; as he has done a lot of the groundwork in getting the AR Platform to cycle properly with the suppressed loads without changing anything so that it also works with the standard loads. FWIW apparently reloading the sub-sonic loads for the AR has some "tricks" to it; and each rifle may take a slightly different component combination than it's brother. It is a slim window there that you are looking for. Just a heads up.

Gregg







Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: mingokid] #117351 09/07/2012 7:46 AM
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 Originally Posted By: mingokid
I just started into the 6.5 grendel world. Surprising cartridge and as of Feb. 2012 SAAMI approved this round. Essentially a patent. Soon thereafter Hornady began serious loading with an optimized 123 gr Amax bullet for the grendel. Now Wolf ammo is due out later this year, much less expensive practice or plinking. I was all onboard for the 300 whisper, blackout, aau... The
ballistics are all for the grendel after 50 to 100 yards. For full disclosure I have a few AR 15's in 5.56's and an AR 10 in .308/7.62. For rifle hunting this year , the grendel gets the nod. .......................... Mingokid.


It's funny how all of a sudden people are starting to finally realize how really really good the 6.5 diameter bullet is with it's high ballistic coeffient, long for caliber, a whale of a killer ("it kills way out of proportion for it's size" is a common saying with this round) It is completely over the top in it's class; it is truly sad that the .264 Win Mag (and 6.5 Rem Mag) were so under recognized and actually criticized (in actuality they were WAY ahead of their time). And almost the same with JD Jones's 6.5 JDJ; it is an efficient little killer as well as superbly accurate in the Contender platform. Some of us lucky ones "have been in the know for a lot of years."
;\)


Well at least the rest of the world is "starting to catch on."

LOL
\:D


JMHO







Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: wapitirod] #117362 09/07/2012 11:28 AM
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 Originally Posted By: wapitirod
I'd start with a complete gun with a 5.56 upper on it and then add uppers like the 300 or whatever else you want.



Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Start with the basics like a contender and add barrels, or in this case uppers. ARs are easy to build and much less costly when rolling your own so to speak. I have built 6 over the years and have tutored several friends in building their own. Not only do you learn how to build it but you learn how to repair it. And building it yourself, the options are limitless.


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: Gregg Richter] #117363 09/07/2012 11:29 AM
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For hunting I would definitely get the 300 whisper over a 223. I've only shot one deer with my whisper. Mine is a 10 twist so it won't stabilize the heavy bullets like you want to shoot. Make sure you get the 8 twist. I talked to a guy who lives in Mississippi and he shoots hogs with his using 220 grain matchkings. He said that a pellet gun is louder!

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: cfish2] #117364 09/07/2012 11:32 AM
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Gregg, your dead on about the 6.5. My 6.5 JDJ has put down more game then any gun I have ever owned. I have never lost a single animal in the almost 20 years I have been hunting with it. Even at long range. I think a 6.5 JDJ upper in an AR, would be the cats meow.


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: cfish2] #117375 09/07/2012 1:40 PM
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Careful Duane...the BRD catches on much like Contenderitis. Once contracted, it's hard to shake
;\)


I started with the .223 after shooting a friends Bushmaster. Once "convinced" of some application in my use, I started looking at other caliber offerings in the 15 platform. And then along came a Grendel in a DMR-style format (Designated Marksman Rifle) with bigger glass, and lastly and most recently, a 300 Blackout in an SBR that I run suppressed. The first two have taken hogs, and the last one will get it's chance shortly (although it'll be splitting time with the Whisper Contender barrel)

Sig 556


Custom Grendel Build


Short Stick Blackout...no blood. Yet.

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: SChunter] #117398 09/07/2012 3:13 PM
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TC,

What you are doing, your research is what you need to do before jumping in the the black rifle world. I officially have the affliction, having quite a few, with the heart of mine being a switch barrel (not upper) affair with calibers in 22LR. 556, 6x45, 458 Socom and several 556 barrels.

As has been noted, picking the right twist in the caliber you are pondering is very important. The other two items that are very important are the magazines and the gas system. Some of the variants use propritory magazines, some standard AR mags. If you are thinking of building from parts, then you will need to get educated on the gas system and buffer system. If you plan on buying a complete upper or gun, the maker should have the gas system nailed down.

Generally I reccomend to folks to start with the 556 to get their feet wet and understanding going before jumping into the more "exotic" calibers. But as you have hog on the brain, that might not be the best scenario for you. If you do decide to go 556, you will probably want to shoot heavier bullets designed for hunting, and will need to really watch your barrel twist. The 30 AAC and Whisper are slightly different, with the Wisper being able to be shot in the 30 chamber, but not vice versa. It seems with the blossoming of the 30 right now, it might be better to do that rather than the Whisper.

I almost pulled the trigger on a 30 earlier this summer, but money is tight right now, as it sounds for you. I am guessing you have found ar15.com. Get your pad of paper and pencil out, and start with the notes. If your head is not swimming by now, it will be soon enough ;^)

Craig


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: SChunter] #117399 09/07/2012 3:19 PM
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Bearbait, thank you for realizing that is exactly what I am doing!!! I have more TC’s than I will ever need in my lifetime. Time to look at another path…

It will be a while, at least, minimally, a year, if not more…

I have all the reloading supplies to make 300 brass. I have a 16.5 TC Custom Shop in 300 Whisper already. I actually though about putting a suppresser on it, but it could take quite a bit of work getting 200-210gr cast bullets to shoot accurately enough for practical applications. The problem isn’t just the bullet stabilizing from what I understand. I have a couple of reloading manuals that indicate I can use up to 220 gr bullets before I need a faster twist in my TC. However, from what Doc. R. has told me via PM’s is that the tumbling of the bullet is very important for hunting applications. He also said that usually starts with 220gr bullets.

RR, this is the exact reason I was thinking of just going with a new barrel that had a faster twist. I could potentially spend a lot of money on molds or just buy another barrel… I like the buy another barrel idea, but then the AR platform keeps being brought up in my feeble mind.
(Yes, I know just enough to get me in trouble on this one!)

SCH, I have wanted a 450 Bushmasters for quite some time. Muwahahahaha!!! The 45-70 of the AR platform. Humorously, I use the 250gr FTX, designed for the 450 Bushmasters, in my 460 S&W TC.

Fish, hmmmmm…. Build it myself… your logic is right on for a multitude of reasons… if the “oh-crap” happens, I will be able to work on it myself.

Gregg, that is exactly why I was thinking of going with a SSK 300 Whisper set up from the start. I know it will be done right for THAT application. But I also know that I am just getting my feet wet...

I am defiantly interested in multiple uppers. I understand the 6.5 concept on several levels, even the 6.8 for that matter. I am just leaning towards the 300. SSK has the brass reasonable priced and you can buy factory ammo for it.


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117403 09/07/2012 3:41 PM
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 Originally Posted By: TCTex.
I have a 16.5 TC Custom Shop in 300 Whisper already. I actually though about putting a suppresser on it, but it could take quite a bit of work getting 200-210gr cast bullets to shoot accurately enough for practical applications.


Duane, I'm not so sure if cast bullets and suppressors go together well, unless you get a take-down model (similar to the manufacture of most 22 cans) for thorough cleaning. Just repeating what I've seen on various Suppressor Forums (leading, lube, and cleaning issues).

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117404 09/07/2012 3:41 PM
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TC,

The tumbling issue is going to surely be bullet specific, I am sure. Many folks do not realize that the 556 for the military was designed for the bullet to tumble and break apart. But for hunting in this day and age, there are more bullet choices that are not designed to do so. I suspect the Barnes bullet for the 30 AAC is also not designed to tumble, but I could be wrong. I guess that comes down to sub v. super sonic.

And I almost posted that one reason to stay with the Whisper over the 300 is out of loyalty or satisfaction with SSK. Looks like you are already there ;^) That is one of the other reasons I did not do the 300. I have had a few SSK JDJ's, and I am a bit like a dog in the loyalty department sometimes ;^)

Craig


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: Bearbait in NM] #117406 09/07/2012 3:54 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Bearbait in NM
I suspect the Barnes bullet for the 30 AAC is also not designed to tumble, but I could be wrong. I guess that comes down to sub v. super sonic.

And I almost posted that one reason to stay with the Whisper over the 300 is out of loyalty or satisfaction with SSK. Looks like you are already there ;^) That is one of the other reasons I did not do the 300. I have had a few SSK JDJ's, and I am a bit like a dog in the loyalty department sometimes ;^)

Craig


Craig - correct. The Barnes 110 BlackTip (TTSX) is designed for supersonic applications and was re-created in conjunction with AAC. Super effective in their "barrier blind" penetration tests, which should carry over well in hunting applications as well. And by the way, they sound like a 22LR when shot through the suppressor.

However, Doc's already told me to "man up" and shoot it like it's supposed to be shot. Subsonic...so I'll retain my man card and start working up 240 SMK loads soon
\:\)


I understand completely on the loyalty front - I figure my 5th and inbound SSK barrel and multiple T'SOB's has my spend-meter way in JD's favor. And my 300 AAC BO build was a blend of parts, starting with a Noveske barrel that I couldn't refuse and couldn't resist.

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: SChunter] #117409 09/07/2012 4:23 PM
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TCTex. Offline OP
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If I am going to have to shoot ja-ja-ja-ja… ja-ja… jacketed… (that’s better… lol) bullets threw it that is fine. I can know that going into it. At least the Sierra 220gr Match Kings are reasonable priced… LOL

It sounds like it would be cheaper to shoot jacketed bullets than tear up an expensive suppresser…

Yes, the 300 Whisper is JD’s baby as far as I am concerned. He knows all about its in’s and out’s because it started it from scratch, more or less, when the military went to him…

Now I am not saying that I couldn't buy all the parts from different distributers and build one properly myself, I am just saying that I don’t know anything about AR’s at all and if I had to buy one tomorrow it would be threw SSK. There is a piece of mind to me knowing that if the gun wasn’t shooting it would be because of my handloads and not a function issue in "my" building process.

I have several of Doc’s loads and would probably be using them if my barrel didn’t have a 1:10. I may see about ordering a few 220gr Sierras and see how it does. LOL


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: TCTex.] #117419 09/07/2012 6:25 PM
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Yep You got it bad. No hope for you now. I think Elmer said something like [[I spent most of my money on guns and bullets, the rest I wasted]] Yep you got it bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: junebug] #117421 09/07/2012 6:48 PM
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TCTex. Offline OP
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Thanks for the helps Gent's!

Maybe by this time next year I can ask a few more questions and start ordering parts...

Duane


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: Bearbait in NM] #117427 09/07/2012 10:48 PM
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rlb Offline
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It's funny how all of a sudden people are starting to finally realize how really really good the 6.5 diameter bullet is with it's high ballistic coeffient, long for caliber, a whale of a killer ("it kills way out of proportion for it's size" is a common saying with this round) It is completely over the top in it's class; it is truly sad that the .264 Win Mag (and 6.5 Rem Mag) were so under recognized and actually criticized (in actuality they were WAY ahead of their time). And almost the same with JD Jones's 6.5 JDJ; it is an efficient little killer as well as superbly accurate in the Contender platform. Some of us lucky ones "have been in the know for a lot of years."

Gregg, just compare the sectional densities of the 6.5 compared to other calibers of the same weight and you'll see why it hits with such authority. I was hoping the secret wouldn't get out.
;\)

Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: rlb] #117432 09/07/2012 11:34 PM
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i would recommend agains shooting cast bullets in any of the semi auto tactical guns. You probably won't have a problem if you just plink a little but if you use the gun the way it was meant to be used you will have lead build up issues. The 300 won't be as bad but then again if you do want to use it the way it was designed that's alot more expensive way to go than the 5.56


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: "Black Gun" Thoughts [Re: wapitirod] #117490 09/08/2012 8:38 PM
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TC, if you want another avenue, why not look at the original black gun. The FN FAL in 308. I have built 2 in the past 3 years and I use an STG58 version with a 16 inch barrel for 3 gun matches. They are the cats meow. Mine is very accurate and it's a hoot to shoot. Just shot it today in a CQB match. Gotta love em.


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