I don' know if anyone is really fixated on rifles or if it is similar rounds that can be put into single shot handguns. My only point is that increased velocity does matter, at least in what I am shooting. I have heard & it has been discussed here & in written print that several of the Linebaugh rounds can & do out penetrate bottleneck single snot pistol/rifle rounds, and I just want the public to know that they only do this if the parameters are set up to sway the results. Similar diameter, same bullet configuration, and same weigh comparisons will show that they are not as close as some of the seminar results show. There are a lot of guys that hunt with 45/70 & 450 Marlin HANDGUNS on this site & their is not a single 45 Colt load that can be produced that will out penetrate or out perform them if they use similar styled bullets. I know that some "newbies" think that the 45 Colt can because they "read" it somewhere. I know this because they have told me when I have talked to them. I think someone once said "that the truth will set you free" & that is all I am saying - these results should be shown in a light that doesn't try to mislead anyone.

No they are not. The Linebaugh Seminars are "run what you brung" events. Most guys don't load their rifles with flat-nosed solids (there's the feeding issues as well from using these bullets). When they show up with round nosed solids, they often get trounced by "lesser" handgun rounds. Go look at the link I posted. It is chalk full of great real world information. Again, tested in media and then he goes and whacks seven or eight buff at a time. His findings in the lab absolutely correlate with his results in the field. READ THE LINK!

Oh, and the .45 Colt is one of the absolute best revolver rounds I have had the pleasure of hunting with. It is a great all-around cartridge able to be loaded mild to wild, giving really nothing up to it's sister the .454. Remember that the .454 case was lengthened to prevent yahoos from sticking .454s in their Single Action Armies and turning them into shrapnel.

I'm going to haver to put a revolver into your hands, David. Next time I head that way, let's plan on burning a whole pile of powder. I'll bring a bundle of big revolvers including the .50 AK. Deal?

Man, don't misconstrue what I write to mean more than it does, I have been mislead by a lot of bogus information back in the early 90's back when I got seriously into only hunting with a handgun. I learned very early that if money is behind results, they will not always be accurate. Remember guys, I started out with revolvers in 44 Mag & 50 AE. I still love them & all the rounds that go in them. They will work on anything that walks on God's green earth. I like what I like because I have hunted with both & have seen with my own two eyes with how they perform on game. I will be happy to shoot any revolver you bring & spend all day doing it, but I am not stupid enough

to shoot a 50 Alaskan in a "light" revolver. I will shoot it in an Encore without a second thought. Sounds good, but you have to shoot my single shots & report on which truly harnesses the most power & does it the best.

Forever & Even Amen...LOL

I will gladly shoot anything you put in my hands! The .50 Alaskan is now sporting an Ultradot 6, BIG Talley rings in an attempt to put some weight on the top. I suspect it's a better configuration but we will have to find out!

The recoil energy & speed your 50 Alaskan revolver produces is all you buddy!

But I want to share the fun!

So that's what you call it?

What would be even more fun is to rest your elbows on a nice hard table top[concrete or wood don't matter] and then touch one of those monsters off and you will know how the poor wet pack or bovine feels. Penetration will be the fartherest thing from your mind for awhile. I would like a report on how deep your elbows penetrated though. Toyota trucks at 65 mph don't penetrate worth a damn [too much meplat I guess] but you can't argue with the results. Ain't this fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hahaha, you have a good point Junebug!

The 45 doesnt give up much to the 454 if and only if ya use hardcast bullets and once again only if youre shooting paper. Shoot a 340 gr beartooth at 1700+ fps into a buffalo then shoot a 45 colt with the same bullet into a buffalo at 1300 fps and tell me theres no difference. Ive done it several times and its quite obvious despite the fact its not to the ruler in the paper. Whit. Youre right that the ph in africa dont know mucha bout bullets which is why i sent a few hundred a frames for his 458 lot to my ph as part of the tip.

Theres hopefully gonna be some african countries that are considering handgun hunting. The results by the first few people that hunt there will determine whether theres new places for us to handgunhunt and they better use the right stuff bc there better not be failures or it wont ever happen.

That was the point I was making. I was also trying to explain to you that in my 5-shot .45s, I can push 'em just as hard as a .454 -- hence the comment about the case length. I don't though, as I don't really think it's necessary, but that's just me. I think your pushing you luck with a hardcast bullet at 1,700 fps -- I wouldn't trust them completely at these speeds. Even 1,700 fps isn't all that fast in the grand scheme of things and I just don't see a huge gain. Now if you can get that bullet up to 2,400 fps I think you'll definitely be on to something! I just don't feel that the added velocity really gets their attention anyhow. Your placement needs to be spot-on, and a dead animal ensues. I still think placement causes more "reaction" than any other factor (assuming your bullet get's to the vitals). I have only one time seen a large animal (a bison) react to a shot (by react I mean he was visibly taken aback by the shot), and that bullet was loafing along at about 1,150 fps. However, every animal is a law unto itself, I don't expect the same reaction ever again.

And it wasn't PHs I was referring to, but rather people who drop coin regularly in Africa. For many, a solid is a solid.

On your second point, no doubt. I gave Larry Weishuhn a whole bunch of material last month in a meeting as they are preparing to pitch the Namibian government (the project that Gary is working on). The right stuff is a bullet that will reliably penetrate through to the vitals without deviating, and a shooter who can deliver. God knows rifle shooters loose game in Africa pretty frequently.

Yes they do but when they do lose animals left and right. Funny thing is they never think they needed a better bullet but that they need a bigger rifle. Ive always heard hunters talk about losing game with a vital shot on a cape buff with a 500 jeffrey or the like and my response isnt they need a 600 OK instead they just need to quit shooting round nose solids and that stuff will quit happening. I think we got it across pretty good the last time in africa to some of the ph's at the 2nd property it is about the bullet and not the caliber or whether its a rifle or pistol. This is why you can fail miserably with a 470 nitro and succeed with a 44 mag. Thankfully our ph is experienced with pistol hunters, in no small way due to him hunting with gary a few times, and he would tell the other phs that the pistols killed game real well

In a 5 shot 45 Colt it can be loaded to the same pressure and speed as the 454. Loaded to the same overall length the powder capacity will be the equal as well.

Jack Huntington shot an Asian buffalo with the 50 Alaskan out of a rifle shooting the 525 grain WFN at 1850 fps and it didn't have any quicker effect than what the 500 Linebaugh shooting the same bullet at about 1100 fps

Forgot to put this on my post

PS does anyone have any live game hunts in the future to test the theories???

Yup, do it all the time. Can't remember the last time I hunted for my pleasure. Always testing......

Yup, do it all the time. Can't remember the last time I hunted for my pleasure. Always testing...... [/quote]

WHIT, Make sure you post the results and pictures of all your upcoming hunts. Will really enjoy seeing and reading about your tests....Let me add that be allowing some of the new handgun hunters to see and read your hunt results it will give them some insight into the ballistics of hunting handguns. You will be doing them a real service....

For editorial purposes, that's why I don't post 'em up much anymore.

That's to bad because the members will not be able to take advantage of your testing unless you tell us when these articles will be published. I cannot imagine what your day must be like and only hope I`am not asking to much.

Jwp. I dont much care one example of what jack huntington did once. I used my example for a reason. Its the velocity that i start to see that exact bullet expands with that type of lead to expand to about .8 inches. Therein lies the difference. That said if the wound channel wasnt bigger on the faster bullet the he needs a better bullet to maintain its integrity

I agree the bullet will expand a bit at higher velocity. I have shot a lot of large game such as moose,buffalo, etc as has Jack. I have not nesseceralily noticed more effectiveness especially at 1700 fps. Which is why I cited the example. I have noticed increased effectiveness on smaller game such as deer. Your experience may be different and there is indeed overlap.

Whats interesting to me is where it happens. So far ive been able to notice a significant "crumpling" of animals up to elk size when ive amped up the velocity and used an expandable vs a solid and have had adequate penetration up to 2k lbs so far. Fun to test things.

It's fun to see what really works & what falls short to live up to the hype. Animals over 1,000 pounds really prove what does & what does not perform as advertised.

This has been very educational for me guys! Thanks for keeping it civil so it didn't get locked.

This is good stuff!

This was the 18" tall tougher than shoe leather heart from my 2000lbs water buffalo. A 420gr Crater Lite at 1768fps did this.

thatll do it for sure there reflex!

Crater bullets & increased velocity....you know your stuff Reflex, but then again you have shot large dangerous game

Exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull elk a 440 grain wide me plat hard cast at 950 fps fired from the 500 JRH

Speaking of dangerous game





Another on

Fellers I appreciate everyone keeping this civil. The goal is to develope a repeatable index to measure performance. I am going to do another sort of questionnaire post for all who awant to participate that will include loads and cartridges used on actual game. reflex264

JWP, just out of curiosity, what did those bears weigh? Or the moose? I would think your best example would be the Bison you shot. When I was referencing Reflex, I was speaking of his Water Buff that weighed close to a ton. In this example I think size really makes a difference. I would really like to see a picture of your Water Buffalo if you have one readily available.

I have only shot 3 animals over 1,000 pounds with a pistol to test different bullets.

The first Yak bull was shot with my 416 Barnes Competitor pistol using a 350 gr Speer mag tip bullet. The Water Buffalo cow was taken with my Encore in 50 AE using 370 WFN. The last Yak bull was taken using my Competitor in 50 AE with a 385 gr Bonded Core HP bullet.

You mentioned dangerous game and the bears definitely fit that description especially when coming in as you work a moose kill. The 390 grain LFN flatted the one that I shot. It is in "Big Bore Revolver written by Max Prasac.
The bears were Arctic grizzly not the biggest, but the rather ill tempered. At least according to the AF&G . The Alaskan Yukon moose is the largest in world and larger than most Asian buffalo in my experience.

This big boy went over a ton. 1 shot with the 525 WFN at 1100 fps and he was finished blood pumping out the entrance and exit holes.





Average size Asian buffalo
A 425 grain wide flat point hard cast at 1385 fps broke the onside support bone through the shoulder and exited the off side shoulder immediately stopping his forward motion.

jwp, What year did you shoot your bears??

In the 80's. Does the time frame make a difference? The 390 grain LFN worked perfectly 1350 fps and I would choose the same today with the exception that I would move up to the 420 grainer.

This may give a perspective of how large these Alaskan Yukon moose are.

That is a really nice Buff (Bison)

jwp, I figured it was the 80s by the camo your wearing. You shot the moose in the above picture?? The reason I ask is that is that its bigger then the one I took... Nice moose. Shot mine in the 00`s....

Ok, I think this is a good point for everyone to PLEASE take a deep breath, and relax. I don't think anyone is pointing fingers or calling out anyone at this point, so far. But I think it is getting close. I don't want it to get that way as I am learning a LOT from this thread, and would hate to have this thread locked.

GREAT discussion fellas!!!