Not sure what this will prove but here ya go, all in the wild, no fences. [img][/img]

Cotton, So your saying that these critters I shot in South Africa are not wild because every piece of private land in SA is fenced regardless if its 5000 acres or 500,000 acres??? But then again maybe your right because the 2nd time I was in Africa I was confronted by a female lion without a weapon and I was able to slowly make it to my tent and I always wondered why she did not hit me. I`am sure it was because she said to herself " I don`t want to eat this guy because we are behind a fence and it will not be sporting".....

The leg bone pulled off while skinning a wide flat point hard cast from a 454 did the deed.


[URL=http://s33.photobucket.com/user/jwp475/media/WFN45CalWound.jpg.html][/URL

Cotton, What bullet did you use on the excellent heart shot from your above pictures??

jwp, Perfect... How far was the shot??

JFJ didn't see anywhere where I said they weren't, just referred to the animals I took. But since you have more experience in preserve in NA and the wilds of NA do you really think chasing down a critter non native to the region in a limited fenced area is the same as going after the wild in their home turf? Inquiring minds want to know? A 5000 acre or a 500,000 acre enclosure is a lot different to what is provided at most preserves here in NA. Just my opinion. Sitting in a fenced in area you know something is going to walk out in my opinion is good for eating,bullet testing,and folks with limited time constraints,but again in my experience it hasn't been much for hunting.Again just my 2 cents worth.

The high fenced vs free range debate is for a totally different forum discussion. When it comes to testing bullets it is absolutely irrelevant if the animal is in front of or behind a fence. Their muscle tissue can't tell the difference. Really??

Cotton, To be perfectly honest with you, the first time I shot a fenced pig was because I could not wait for the normal hunting season to open because my love of the kill outweighs any debate over fenced verses non fenced hunting. Testing and time all come in second. But let me add that I draw the line at 5 acres when it comes to shooting critters behind a fence.... Have to have some ethics.

300gr wfn 45 colt, at approximately 1150fps JFJ. Here is another thought. I have taken game with a 357mag in pistol and rifle. There is a velocity increase and bullet structure becomes paramount as velocity increases. All critters died shot with both but I am not sure one was any deader than another. But comparing a bullet that's designed for pistol speeds against one designed for rifle speeds doesn't seem fair,IMO. If you over drive a bullet designed for 1700fps to say 2200fps is the bullet going to perform even close to what it was designed to do?

Everyone has their favorite, and that's what they like. Whether money is involved or not everyone is a little skewed or biased. I like A frames and nosler partitions, not a huge fan of XTPs but others swear by XTPs, to each their own. What a boring place the world would be if everyone liked the same. The calibers would be limited,platforms on which they would come from the factory limited. Glad it's not like that myself.

That's one of the best photos I`ve seen showing the damage a hard cast bullet can do. I`am sure there are many more but for now this one is tops. No better place to post pictures of what hunting handguns can do then a handgun hunting website...

Cool interesting to know, I know and have myself when time constrains me.

Franchise not trying to be confrontational but the muscle mass and of a penned verses non penned animal has been different in my experience due to diet. Take a hog put on the ground like the old days feed swollen corn and slops verses it's wild counterpart there structure is the same but their muscles and toughness most times will be different, as well as their fight/flight instincts. Again we don't have to agree but it doesn't make anyone's opinion more valuable than anothers.

penned vs non penned is different imho to fence and no fence. many predators do not respect fences and its an animal being sedentary that makes them soft so to speak. a pig in a pen is very very different from a pig living wild but an elk behind a fence in a large game ranch is not different from what i've shot in the mountains.

cotton--the monometals perform well in all handguns in my experience. that said, it's the higher velocity rounds that give the best increase b/c they tax the hardcast lead bullet the most so i've seen a better increase in a maxed out 460 than a 500L for examples of the extreme.

jwp -- just asking, but if we all readily admit the monometal solids perform better, are more reliable and don't fail. why would you use the same load ya did in the 80's, if i, or anyone i know, was gonna hunt anything large and dangerous why not use the best. deer and smaller game is a different story obviously. we always talk about using a solid b/c of poor penetration of expandables but bullets are different now and far more advanced and reliable so i do fail to see why if i have barnes and a frame expandables that do the job handily and penetrate adequately on 2000 lb cape buffalo why i'd use a smaller diameter solid on things here in the states? i agree they all can work but why not use the best?

Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, & no ones' is more valuable than another. When we are discussing bullet testing & how velocity influences bullets, it becomes a tad " weird" to me that fenced vs non fenced comes into play. When it comes to large game & shooting them, I really don't think that the muscle mass & bone density of a Bison on a preserve or ranch to one that lives in Yellowstone National Park really will change bullet upset or penetration. I just don't see the relevance.

OK....

Trad,How much in fps increase do you start to notice the difference? Lets compare the 45 colt at normal and 5 shot or custom velocities to 454 and 460. I am curious where gains can be used efficiently. How much gains in mushrooming do you get if appropriate bullets are selected for each velocity parameter? I am curious and am interested in results.

We all have differing opinions but all are valuble and relivant. Single shot handguns in rifle calibers are relivant for comparison here. It does help answer the questions about velocity and bullet combinations. I truly wish I had some pictures of the worst destroyed deer I ever took with a handgun. It was a doe shot at a lasered 112 yards with a .44 Special using a 255 Cast Performance bullet that started from the muzzle at a lowly 1030fps. I have no good explaination for the destruction to the deer. The meat was gone from the ribs on entry and exit for about 6". There was blood coming out the mouthand the rear end of the deer. In between the skin and the carcass the entire deer looked bruised on both sides. Now is this normal? No way. Did it happen yes. This is the kind of damage I typicaly see from a rifle cartridge single shot handgun. reflex264

Boys I am soaking up your experiences. Keep them comming but keep it civil.

I get unexplained things happen all the time. Here is a back strap off a deer shot low in the chest cavity but had blood shot meat and trauma in the back strap. I never could find what caused it and the projectile while at subdued velocity wasn't recovered. There were no signs of fragments in the back strap just one of those things that make you go hmmmm?

The reason that I would use the same as I did in the 80s is simple it works very well and provides more than enough penetration, less expensive and I like to hunt with want I practice with. More penetration from the mono metal solids is good but simply not needed in my experience. The loads that I settled own have never left me wanting and I am very familiar and confident with them.

cottonstalk, i like, and this is just on my experience, over 1500 fps for the aframe and over 1700 from the barnes and this is muzzle velocity. i recently killed a whitetail doe with a hornady xtp 240 mag at 2050 fps and hit it quartering to me from the right front of shoulder and out the back ribs. crumpled at the shot no spine hit. so far i've not had any deer exotic or whitetail not drop in their tracks with expandables running mv over 1750 fps. i've shot over 10 oryx now and i've dropped them all within 60 yards, now i do shoot african animals till they quit moving with any bullet, but i've not had the same results with the hardcast. last oryx shot with a 475 through the lungs went over 6 miles. cape buffalo with an aframe and did massive damage and left me a wonderful blood trail from the nose, it was easy to follow, due in large part to the damage the bullet did. per the ph woulda died on the first shot but we don't let em suffer so we pushed and shot it again with a buster which is my f/u bullet, on testing on the actual animal, a 475 hardcast produced no more penetration when shot through the same shoulders next to the original hole. the 45 colt shot animals and 44 mag shot animals with expandables did not penetrate nor do the damage on 400lb and up animals that the faster bullets do if under 1400 fps where ya choose to load a 45 colt 5 shot is up to you but i'm keeping with book velocities. 475 expandables of premium bullets do great above 1400 fps. another great example is the 4 black bear over 300lbs we took in alaska. 454's and a 475, all premium epxandables the 475 i believe was about 1450fps on a 325 gr speer (gary's) and the others were 2 with 300 gr partitions at 1600fps and a barnes 250gr xbp at 1750. all dropped within 20 yards. my sons bear was a 250 gr barnes at 1750 fps at 50 yards through both shoulders, didn't take a step but rolled 20 yards down the mountain. never got up and took a step. no tracking involved. 5/5. on my 11 bison i've shot i've used hardcast 44 mag, 45 colt, 454, and 475 and expandables in the 454 and 44 mag. the ones through the heart killed quickly, but one with a 454 hardcast and a 45 colt hardcast dropped at the spot because of the bone trauma but took over 5 minutes to die as they were not shot throught he heart and the other animals herded around them precluding a f/u shot. none of the expandables went further than 40 yards and that includes the 44 mag shot with 225 hornday tipped hollow points through the lungs. a water buffalo shot with the barnes xbp died with one shot and traveled about 40 yards before it layed up and died. two cow elk shot with hardcast, one with a 45/70 and one with a 475 had bullet failure on the shoulders and required a 200 yard chase and follow ups which brought them down quickly. that said the other elk i've beenin on the shooting with 454 hornady 240 gr xtp mag bullets and a 275 gr barnes xbp bullets piled up within 20 yards. gary shot a huge cow elk bigger than many bulls with his 475 with speer 325 gr bullets and he waylaid that thing and it dropped within 40 yards if i remember correctly. my sons lion which is on video was shot with a 275 gr xbp bullet head on and it traversed the entire lion and went through 2 small trees, the f/u shot from the back b/w the shoulder blades was the final killer and as the video shows as the lion jumped up to charge but fell at the first step in a heap illustrates where a smaller wound channel and taking a couple minutes to die is not desireable. quite exciting btw. gary's lion with the nosler partition out of his 454 went about 5 feet and died. sure poor shots out of the vitals inspire a lengthy tracking episode. experience varies and this is just some of mine and what i base my opinions on.

As far as bullet testing goes there is no difference in my opinion. The difference that is being referenced is in and animals alertness and ability to flee and the ability to get a good shot, at least that is what I would consider as the difference

perhaps it's enough/perhaps not if it was a cape buff, i personally would use the best on the biggest and most dangerous and would encourage anyone to do so as well that's going as handgun hunting itself is being judged by the performance on the biguns.

Mark, thanks for bringing this forum back to the topic of bullet testing & man, you have done a lot of handgun hunting......meaning......you have done a lot of bullet testing. Thanks Mark for telling me about your/your son's experience with the .375 Hornady DGX bullets. It was really nice to hear real world experience & not just Hornady's press.

Damage caused by 400 gr XTP on a boar hog from my 475/350 Mag exit wound from WT deer from 350 gr Hawk bullet from my 416 Barnes heart from Fallow Buck from my 30/221 using 125 gr. BT exit wound on WT from my 376 Steyr using 300 gr Norma Oryx bullet here are just a few examples of my handgun bullet testing

I don't want to leave my buddy KRal out. This Red Fox exit wound using my 30/221 handgun using a 125 gr Speer TNT HP bullet

Exit wound from WT deer using a 50 AE with a 385 gr HP exit wound on Florida Feral Boar using 416 Barnes with Hawk 350 gr. Spitzer. 475 Linebaugh HC in the hole for size comparison.

Just curious if some of the thin jacketed and softer flat points fired in the 700-850fps range that achieve maximum mushrooming really loose anything to a thicker jacketed maximum mushrooming at higher velocities say 1600+ fps. Once a jacketed bullet has mushroomed completely,went through the vitals, can it really do anymore? Speer GDs,Hawk(thin jacketed),Nosler sporting,sierra sports,swift a frames,nosler partitions and some old winchester half jackets are what I have used and each have their sweet spots. All have killed for me but you can blow them up. Send some of the thin Hawks out at upper 1700+ velocities and watch the pancake become detremental to what you are after. I have never been able to push any of the a frames hard enough to see bullet pancaking or coming apart. Revolvers were not built to achieve rifle velocities. And most rifles and handguns with proper bullets do more than enough damage to put food on the table. Critters haven't gotten tougher but compare the armament taken afield today vs what was used 30yrs ago,20yrs ago,even 10yrs ago. I recently had a talk with a 92yr old friend about hunting and what most people take to the field in my area and he laughed and said'" With that kind of fire power what's everybody hunting,dinasours?"

How much is enough,don't matter, we hunt and shoot what we want with what we want. I as a hand gunner like revolvers,DA or SA and autos because it changes the way I hunt. It forces me to slow down and spend more time in the field. If I had a long range single shot I would want to wring it out for all it's worth and they shoot a lot farther and a lot flatter and my time afield would be shortned. I don't think comparing the two, rifles and rifle calibers to handgun cartridges is even playing field. However I never feel under gunned when I go to the field. To me comparing the bottle neck cartridges to straight walled is like comparing a 50bmg to a 5" on a battle ship.

Was never left wanting with the proper hard cast on Alaskan Yukon moose, Alaskan grizzly or.bison.

trademark, I am curious to know what and when was the last big animal ( over 500lbs ) that you shot, what bullet did you use, bullet performance and anything else you may add??? Its a nice to know that the members practice what they preach. I guess my last big critter was one of those Cape buff shooting a 500 WE loaded with 420gr Punch bullet ammo a few weeks ago......

The center bullet was recovered on the offside of a nyala after a 72 yard uphill shot from FA`s 475 Linebaugh. The animal ran 10 feet and died. The 400gr XTP from a factory load lost 48grs with a recovered weight of 352grs. The XTP has to be the most consistent non-premium bullet on the market. The recovered bullet may not be picture perfect but they work.... All you new members take notice. If you match the bullet to the game your after and put the bullet in the kill area you will recover your animal....

Blood trail from pig shot with 325gr Swift from 500WE....

The 475 cast hollow point pictured above was a joint project by Dick Thompson and Glenn Swaggert. Glen sent me a few and asked me to load them with, I believe, 14.0grs of HS-6 so they would know the velocity range when fired from a 5 1/2" barrel. I loaded
them as Glen asked and shot a decent pig using my John Gallagher five shot Bisly. The center picture is the offside pocket that held the expanded cast HP until it dropped to the ground upon skinning. Pretty good performance...would`ent you agree?

PS- the lubed cast HP weighed 388.0grs. The recovered bullet lost less then 5.0grs weighing 383.3grs......

These pictures show what damage a 210gr XTP shot from a S&W 657 will do to a good size boar. I believe the handload used H-110 and was just under max. The 210gr XTP really ripped up the lungs.
Match the bullet to the game and put it in the right place.....

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My brown bear died in the water at sundown after being hit with a Cor-Bon 360gr Penetrator from my FA`s 454 Casull. It was a broadside hit at exactly 50yds. The second picture shows the exit on the skinned bear. At impact the bear proceeded to tear up the ground and claw at the wound until he fell dead into the water. I will always remember the sound of the huge jacketed flat point bullet when it hit the bear. WAMP.... A premium bullet did a premium job on a high price adventure...You have to believe in the bullet you are hunting with and that happens with experience. And the only way to get experience is to shoot animals with your handgun, no matter if they roam the plains of the lower 48, are trying to escape from a fenced operation or come through your bedroom window. I think you get the message.....PS- the bottom picture shows the brown bear after he dried off.

The hunt pictures I`ve posted above are a small example of what hunting handguns can do no matter what size the animal is. You have to practice and then find the time to hunt. No different then rifle or bow hunting. Know your weapon and its limitations and kill something.....

Nice bear and i lobe the damage to that hogs lungs from the .41. To answer your question the last game animal ober 500lbs was the cape buff about 9 months ago. A frames 325 used for first shot and a barnes buster f/u coup de gras.

Boys I am enjoying all of your input. keep it comming. reflex264

Got a few of these,just waiting for victims.Going to use three different velocity ranges.950ish,1100fps which is about where those you used JFJ should have been and 1250fps.Looks like they work well,and I understand that a elk and a buffalo have met their demise with this same bullet at that medium velocity range.

JFJ Looking at this whole post again and the photos of the hog with that 475 cast hollowpoint, do you think that driving it faster would have been any more efficient at killing that hog?

Faster would actually be more trouble in my opinion. With the alloy mixture that was used on this one from Sixshot 70/30 mix, you don't want to go much faster. At 1100, its almost perfect, at 1170 where my load was with the bison, it starts to lead after about 20 rounds. Not bad and good enough for hunting but 1100 seems to be a sweet spot. If you want to run it faster, Dick would cast it from an 80/20 mix most likely to slow the opening a touch and help it hold together and try to lessen chance of leading the bore. These big HPs work very well when the velocity is matched with the alloy composition. I've found the 1100 fps range with my 475 to be a most effective and efficient killing machine.

Thanks Glenn......

And the circle continues, but the main information stays exactly the same "Shoot a good bullet at designed velocity put it in the right spot and collect your trophy" and "velocity helps if the bullet is matched and up to the task". After reading through it several times, most are saying the exact same thing just different ways. This site has lot's of experience in just about any realm of handgunning one would like to go. Here are the highlights from where I sit,

reflex264 "Tests have little meaning if you never point them at a critter."

Whitworth "there is a bit of a dead zone over a certain velocity where gains are so minimal as to not be worth the added recoil and subsequent punishment. Once you pass that threshold, the gains are more prevalent"

Whitworth "I tested a .475 Linebaugh many years ago against a .470 Nitro Express double rifle belonging to a friend. The 420 grain bullet at a scorching 1,350 at the muzzle handily out penetrated the .470's 500 grain solid in wetpack. Why? Well, for one, the solid bullet's small meplat was causing the .470 bullets to veer off course, not penetrating straight. Had the .470 been equipped with a better bullet with a better nose profile, the tables may have been turned. It's all in the bullet"

Bearbait in NM "My feelings on wetpack are that it is really only useful for comparisons on that day, in that material, as wet and as dense as it is. I usually just try to compare bullets shot side by side, on that day"

reflex264 "Media unless you have a way to keep it consistent is pretty much guess work"

tradmark "it does and it makes a difference if one uses a bullet worthy of such velocity"

s4s4u] "The only thing a test media of any kind will do is provide a comparison of the various loads included in that test. You cannot take information from paper or water or pine trees or whatever and apply that to tissue and bone"

jwp475 "The round nose 416 solids were out penetrated by the handgun rounds, the flat point 416 solids were not out penetrated by the handguns rounds.

Whitworth "Your placement needs to be spot-on, and a dead animal ensues. However, every animal is a law unto itself, The right stuff is a bullet that will reliably penetrate through to the vitals without deviating, and a shooter who can deliver"

tradmark "Funny thing is they never think they needed a better bullet but that they need a bigger rifle"

reflex264 "Just remember guys lest keep the hunting fun and the data second. I have become so infatuated with numbers before that it started draining the fun out of my hunting. We are all here joined by a common bond. We enjoy hunting with guns that don't have butt stocks"

Franchise "I learn something new every time I make a handgun kill"

cottonstalk "Shot placement reguardless of projectile is above all else. Put the right bullet at the right velocity in the wrong spot and you will either have a long tracking job, or a lost animal. Put the wrong bullet at the wrong velocity in the right spot and you may have to trail but more times than not vittles will be on the dinner table"

jamesfromjersey "revolvers and single shot handguns shooting rifle cartridges are like apples and oranges,damage a straight wall revolver round will do is no where near the damage a high speed rifle round will do. comparing rifle killed game to handgun killed game is also like apples and oranges"

cottonstalk "There is a velocity increase and bullet structure becomes paramount as velocity increases.But comparing a bullet that's designed for pistol speeds against one designed for rifle speeds doesn't seem fair,IMO.Everyone has their favorite, and that's what they like. Whether money is involved or not everyone is a little skewed or biased"

jamesfromjersey "A premium bullet did a premium job on a high price adventure...You have to believe in the bullet you are hunting with and that happens with experience"

cottonstalk "do you think that driving it faster would have been any more efficient at killing that hog?"
GlenS "These big HPs work very well when the velocity is matched with the alloy composition"

Gary "I would like to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil even though there is clearly some disagreement, which is fine. We don't have to agree all the time. I don't know of another forum where you could have 91 replies and a good bit of disagreement and no one has really gone off the rails. It's a testament to the caliber of folks here"