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Rifle rounds... Why ? #159758 06/11/2015 11:02 AM
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Rmagnum1183 Offline OP
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So I thought about something, Why do you guys in general suggest that hunting with a rifle round. 308, 7mm ect in Contenders considered handgun hunting? Wouldn't that be like putting a Lamborghini engine in a Honda civic and saying you own a Honda civic? That is kinda like hunting with a handgun but taking a shortcut? (cheating?) I just always thought of handgun hunting as "Hunting with a Handgun and its Cartridges" 45, 10mm 44 mag 454 cassul ect.


I go to a street race with my Honda civic vs another Honda civic, just my Honda civic has the lambo engine, is it really a civic vs civic race?

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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Rmagnum1183] #159760 06/11/2015 11:49 AM
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In that since, we wouldn't hunt with our 22 lr handguns either, because that cartridge was developed for a rifle. In my opinion, it's the weapon that defines whether its a handgun or not; not the ammo.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Rmagnum1183] #159761 06/11/2015 11:58 AM
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I went to a Ford vs Chevy event a few years back, the winner drove a mustang....with a chevy engine. Not the best comparison but I think I see your point.
When shooting a bottleneck cartridge out of a platform such as a contender or encore, the shooter still must contend with handgun style shooting positions. Sure the round may have more range but the shooter also has to deal with handgun style optics, which are still a challenge at longer distances. So there are things that keep it from being just like hunting with a rifle.
For the record, I have no issues calling it handgun hunting as long as the firearm has a handgun grip. lol just my .02

Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: wizzard] #159763 06/11/2015 12:50 PM
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Handgun hunting is different for different folks. Conditions of terrain dictate which I choose to take any given day. I imagine when you start hunting with a handgun and take varying types of animals in different conditions, you will understand that thought process a little better. Hard to explain otherwise.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: wizzard] #159764 06/11/2015 1:12 PM
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Chance Weldon Offline
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A comparison I would use is compound bow vs. traditional setup, where the T/C's are compounds and revolvers are recurve/longbows. One setup will get you a bit more range and accuracy while the other might require you to get closer to your target. But in the end, they're both bow hunting.

That's not to say I disagree with you. When I think of handgun hunting, the first image that pops into my head is someone with a revolver, not a bottleneck cartridge chambered T/C or SP. In my opinion, one of the greatest challenges in hunting is to take a game animal with an open sighted revolver.

At the same time, though, I'll never look down upon someone who uses a bottleneck cartridge chambered T/C. They're not exactly that easy to shoot, either, and still require a lot of practice to become proficient with. Not to mention having to create a load that works well in 15" of barrel or less. Having a scoped T/C allows me to hunt in ways I might not easily be able to with just a revolver. For example, there's no way I'm going to hunt coyotes with just my open sighted 460 unless I'm hunting with someone using a rifle who can shoot them pretty far off, but I'm fine with going alone with my 243 Encore in case one of them hangs up on the distance.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Chance Weldon] #159765 06/11/2015 3:04 PM
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Honestly, and not meant in any snide way...........I do because I can.

I use Revolvers, Specialty Pistols, and Rifles. I used to use Black Powder as well.

I like guns. I like all guns. I like shooting guns. I like hunting with guns. I like OWNING guns. Big guns, small guns, long guns, short guns. I like'em. I like'em all.

I like killing sacred cows as well or doing things folks say I can't/shouldn't do.

Oft times, we are our own worst enemy. Crying that handgun hunters "get no respect" and then sacrifice our own upon the alter of tradition because they hunt "different than me". In then end, we are cannibals and eat our own.

I say, stop crying and enjoy your sport and the fact that others enjoy it too. Even if they use a different type of gun or cartridge. It's meant to be FUN!

:theaboveisnotdirectedatanyoneindividualbutwordedtobeallincompasingandgeneralized:

Last edited by Zee; 06/11/2015 3:07 PM.

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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Zee] #159767 06/11/2015 3:41 PM
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pab1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Zee
Honestly, and not meant in any snide way...........I do because I can.

I use Revolvers, Specialty Pistols, and Rifles. I used to use Black Powder as well.

I like guns. I like all guns. I like shooting guns. I like hunting with guns. I like OWNING guns. Big guns, small guns, long guns, short guns. I like'em. I like'em all.

I like killing sacred cows as well or doing things folks say I can't/shouldn't do.

Oft times, we are our own worst enemy. Crying that handgun hunters "get no respect" and then sacrifice our own upon the alter of tradition because they hunt "different than me". In then end, we are cannibals and eat our own.

I say, stop crying and enjoy your sport and the fact that others enjoy it too. Even if they use a different type of gun or cartridge. It's meant to be FUN!

:theaboveisnotdirectedatanyoneindividualbutwordedtobeallincompasingandgeneralized:


What he said!


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159768 06/11/2015 4:04 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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So, who was crying?


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: s4s4u] #159769 06/11/2015 4:23 PM
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pab1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
So, who was crying?


???

He was making a point. He was not accusing anyone in the post of crying.

"Oft times, we are our own worst enemy. Crying that handgun hunters "get no respect" and then sacrifice our own upon the alter of tradition because they hunt "different than me". In then end, we are cannibals and eat our own.

I say, stop crying and enjoy your sport and the fact that others enjoy it too. Even if they use a different type of gun or cartridge. It's meant to be FUN!"

Which is backed up by:

":theaboveisnotdirectedatanyoneindividualbutwordedtobeallincompasingandgeneralized"


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159770 06/11/2015 4:47 PM
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So if you kill a deer with a lever action carbine chambered in 44 magnum, did you kill the deer with a handgun?


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159771 06/11/2015 4:57 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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 Quote:
He was not accusing anyone in the post of crying.


Really? In your quote I see that word used twice.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Randominator] #159772 06/11/2015 5:06 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Randominator
So if you kill a deer with a lever action carbine chambered in 44 magnum, did you kill the deer with a handgun?


Nobody said a rifle/carbine was the same as a handgun no matter what round its chambered in. I believe his point about "no matter what type of gun or cartridge" was directed at the original question of SPs vs revolvers. If you have been involved in handgun hunting discussions for any length of time you will hear an occasional hardcore revolver guy put down SPs as not being a real handgun.


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: s4s4u] #159773 06/11/2015 5:10 PM
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pab1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
He was not accusing anyone in the post of crying.


Really? In your quote I see that word used twice.


Read his post and try to take it in context of what he is saying. Just because the word was used twice does not mean it was directed at the previous posts.


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
Osborne Russell Journal of a Trapper


Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159774 06/11/2015 5:18 PM
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Zee Offline
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 Originally Posted By: pab1
 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
He was not accusing anyone in the post of crying.


Really? In your quote I see that word used twice.


Read his post and try to take it in context of what he is saying. Just because the word was used twice does not mean it was directed at the previous posts.




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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159776 06/11/2015 5:21 PM
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I make every effort to respect the ways others choose to hunt without judging. I think we do more damage to our cause by not putting up a united front at all times. But for me, handgun hunting is an up close and personal endeavor, testing one's hunting skills and field craft. But that's just the way I like to do it and I prefer doing it with revolvers that shoot straight-walled cartridges.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Whitworth] #159778 06/11/2015 5:32 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I make every effort to respect the ways others choose to hunt without judging. I think we do more damage to our cause by not putting up a united front at all times. But for me, handgun hunting is an up close and personal endeavor, testing one's hunting skills and field craft. But that's just the way I like to do it and I prefer doing it with revolvers that shoot straight-walled cartridges.


Ditto.

Just because I chose to use a Red Tailed Hawk to bag rabbits doesn't mean I disagree with using a 22lr to do the same thing. We are all hunters, be it with a hawk, a handgun, a rifle, or a freakin slingshot.

We are all hunters, and should back each other no matter what method we chose. I don't think anyone in this thread has attacked anyone else, or their method of hunting. Everything has been said "in general". But I do agree that sometimes, hunters can be their own worst enemy.

Last edited by raptortrapper; 06/11/2015 5:33 PM. Reason: Because I can't spell

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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Randominator] #159779 06/11/2015 5:41 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Randominator
So if you kill a deer with a lever action carbine chambered in 44 magnum, did you kill the deer with a handgun?


Perhaps if you use a youth stock? Then you might be able to pass it off as a "Mare's Leg" ;-)


Rod, too.

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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159780 06/11/2015 5:41 PM
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Chance Weldon Offline
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 Originally Posted By: pab1
 Originally Posted By: Randominator
So if you kill a deer with a lever action carbine chambered in 44 magnum, did you kill the deer with a handgun?


Nobody said a rifle/carbine was the same as a handgun no matter what round its chambered in. I believe his point about "no matter what type of gun or cartridge" was directed at the original question of SPs vs revolvers. If you have been involved in handgun hunting discussions for any length of time you will hear an occasional hardcore revolver guy put down SPs as not being a real handgun.


I may be wrong, but I think Randominator's response is a rhetorical question toward Rmagnum. Rmagnum questioned why a rifle cartridge in a handgun would be considered handgun hunting, so Randominator asked him if by that logic a rifle in a handgun cartridge would be considered handgun hunting.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Whitworth] #159781 06/11/2015 5:49 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I make every effort to respect the ways others choose to hunt without judging. I think we do more damage to our cause by not putting up a united front at all times. But for me, handgun hunting is an up close and personal endeavor, testing one's hunting skills and field craft. But that's just the way I like to do it and I prefer doing it with revolvers that shoot straight-walled cartridges.


Agree 100%. Although I do occasionally employ a couple of T/C pistol barrels chambered in "rifle cartridges" capable of reaching out a couple hundred yards, handgun hunting for me has always been about the challenge of getting close, and travelling light.



Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Whitworth] #159782 06/11/2015 6:12 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I make every effort to respect the ways others choose to hunt without judging. I think we do more damage to our cause by not putting up a united front at all times.


I agree. Just as important is no matter what you choose to hunt with, practice, be proficient and stay within your effective limits when hunting. I shoot and hunt with traditional bows (I have nothing against people shooting compound bows). I've been embarrassed by other trad shooters at archery ranges in the past who have an elitist attitude because they shoot traditional and let everyone in hearing distance know it. The same guy does not spend much time practicing and shoots horrible groups. That sheds a bad light on trad archers to people shooting compounds. If they have not seen someone who is proficient with trad bows, they may dismiss them as being inaccurate, ineffective and unethical for hunting. I would rather see that guy pick up a compound, a crossbow, a scoped rifle, etc, whatever it takes for him to be proficient and make clean kills.

I grew up hunting with open sighted military surplus rifles. After that I only hunted with handguns, traditional bows and traditional muzzleloaders. I just started shooting and hunting with scoped rifles in the last few years. I didn't shoot my first big game animal with a scoped rifle until I was about 41 or 42. I know I've been guilty of having an elitist attitude toward hunting with scoped rifles in the past. I still hunt with handguns, bows and muzzleloaders. Now I'm also hunting/shooting with something I never thought I would use. My outlook on hunting has changed somewhat too over the years. I'm more concerned with stocking the freezer. "Trophies" and what I hunt with have become less important to me.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Rmagnum1183] #159783 06/11/2015 6:18 PM
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Ok I gotta join in on this. I have hunted in the past with a Contender in .357 Herrett (a necked down 30-30 rd) and took a nice Merino Ram with it, enjoyed the case forming a hand loading that went into it. But I just couldn't get away from the compactness of a revolver and as the classic handgun for hunting so I sold the Contender and never looked back. Its all revolvers now. But this is my personal opinion and style. I agree with Whit as I like to get up close like a bowhunter would. I agree with Zee that we "Handgun Hunters " can be our own worst enemy. I welcome any handgun hunter as I remember how much I enjoyed my Contender. We need to stay united as handgun hunters, no matter what platform or caliber we shoot, as we are few.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: FAH] #159785 06/11/2015 7:10 PM
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Why?
I want to and it is fun.
We do tend to be our own worst enemies.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Ernie] #159786 06/11/2015 7:15 PM
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Its about what is hunting for you.Myself I won't even shoot a rifle on game past a hundred yards but thats me.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Rmagnum1183] #159787 06/11/2015 7:49 PM
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Rmagnum, this was a good post. Things were getting kinda dry around here and you got us all energized again. Thanks!
I think the next debate we should have is, Stand hunting vs spot and stalk / still hunting. Is stand hunting really hunting??!!
;\)


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: FAH] #159793 06/11/2015 9:27 PM
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Webster New World Dictionary defines handgun as Any firearm that is held and fired with one hand, as a pistol. [Pistol] A small firearm operated with one hand] According to this I don't hunt with a pistol either bottleneck or straight wall {CAUSE I USE BOTH HANDS ON ALL OF MINE] both the bottlenecked ones and the straight ones EVERYTIME. Powder burning distance to waaaaaaay out there TWO HANDS EVERYTIME. Don't know what I hunt with but I sure do Love It.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Randominator] #159801 06/12/2015 12:04 AM
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To each their own, but don't knock it until you've tried it. It's handgun hunting. I have messed with a few but only really shot one for hunting purposes last year, and it helped me understand the draw. There's no need to split the group, but we as humans always seem to. If it has wheels or shoulder mounted is it really archery? If it doesn't have a pan and has rifling is it really traditional? If it doesn't have a straight walled cartridge can it be considered handgun hunting? United we can stand against the opposition, divided we will fall, one goup at a time.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: FAH] #159806 06/12/2015 1:31 AM
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 Quote:
I think the next debate we should have is, Stand hunting vs spot and stalk / still hunting. Is stand hunting really hunting??!!


Oh, Lord.............


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: s4s4u] #159808 06/12/2015 2:25 AM
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I can see why all the debates rage on. Hand rifle vs. hand gun has great arguments on both sides. The way some shooters shoot a "hand rifle," by using special rests like the front one that has levers and knobs to adjust the firearm to thereby adjust the sight picture without the human hand touching the firearm, is a good case in point. And using a bottleneck cartridge in an accurized bolt action specialty pistol equipped with a high dollar scope to shoot at an antelope at 500 yards or so with the above mentioned rig is a far cry from using a two handed hold on a Ruger .44 magnum to shoot a deer at 45 yards.

Now, having said that, I believe that each one of us, as an individual, needs to define in our own way what "handgun hunting" truly means to US, and if we are comfortable with it, go for it.

I have killed a bunch of big game animals (including some really nice record book animals) with single shot scoped "hand rifles," but have chosen to go back to revolvers now for a number of years.

I agree with Whit's input.

In fact, my latest goal (which I have mentioned on this website a time or two prior to now), is to break my own SCI World Record Handgun Mule Deer (204+ SCI Typical taken with an Encore) with a revolver.

I have in the mean time taken a mule deer and a couple bull elk with my revolver that easily make the SCI Handgun Record Book, which seem to mean more to me than my Hand Rifle record book entries.

But that is just me, and my own opinion. To each their own. As others have said, we need to back each other up in the long run.







Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Gregg Richter] #159810 06/12/2015 3:12 AM
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Again, not directed an ANY individual. But, a humorously ironic quibble I have seen at times.

To vehemently differ anothers use of bottleneck cartridges from a Specialty Pistol while scoping ones own single action revolver and scoffing from on high.

Makes me wanna smile and say, "Go get'em.........Cowboy."

I don't much care WHAT someone uses. They could fling rocks with a plastic spoon if it makes'em giddy. I have about every flavor of handgun configuration possible and use them all. I'm an equal opportunity handgunner.
:-)


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Gregg Richter] #159811 06/12/2015 3:14 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Gregg Richter
And using a bottleneck cartridge in an accurized bolt action specialty pistol...


That got me thinking. We can really muddy the water and add revolvers chambered in bottleneck/rifle rounds into the mix!




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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: pab1] #159819 06/12/2015 11:41 AM
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Well then.. and here is im hoping my thread dosent get deleted for being stupid lol. I don't mind hunting of any kind like someone said, slingshot, rifle, handgun,bow whatever the case is, But I do believe that using a Tc with a 15 inch barrel and a .308 round has passed the realm of handgun hunting, that's like me taking my AR-15 taking the stock out and saying im handgun hunting.

Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: FAH] #159820 06/12/2015 12:10 PM
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 Originally Posted By: FAH
Rmagnum, this was a good post. Things were getting kinda dry around here and you got us all energized again. Thanks!
I think the next debate we should have is, Stand hunting vs spot and stalk / still hunting. Is stand hunting really hunting??!!
;\)

I was gonna suggest cast vs jacketed lol

Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: wizzard] #159822 06/12/2015 12:54 PM
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I would like to hunt deer with a centerfire rifle, but that is not legal in this state. My XP-100 .308 is as close as I can get.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: wheeler45] #159824 06/12/2015 1:57 PM
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I guess I have been cheating for a lot of years now....
I have also discovered I haven't been using a bow either to hunt with-It has CAMS......
My vision isn't really good enough to be precise with irons, so....
Might as well just give up and go completely with RIFLES
;\)

Should probably just stick with a 308 Win as anything bigger would be cheating.


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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: wizzard] #159825 06/12/2015 1:57 PM
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 Originally Posted By: wizzard

I was gonna suggest cast vs jacketed lol


Then how bout standard vs magnum??

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Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Ernie] #159826 06/12/2015 2:02 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
I guess I have been cheating for a lot of years now....
I have also discovered I haven't been using a bow either to hunt with-It has CAMS......
My vision isn't really good enough to be precise with irons, so....
Might as well just give up and go completely with RIFLES
;\)

Should probably just stick with a 308 Win as anything bigger would be cheating.


Well crap!! Means I've got to quit flying hawks then. I can't fly, nor see as well as she does. And my bow, well, I THOUGHT it was a bow anyway-- I guess that's out too since mine also has wheels and a fiber optic sight. OH! And my 22lr must not be a true rifle, since it has a lever on it. I thought rifles were supposed to have bolts, or is that not right?? And my custom revolver isn't anything close to what it started out as, so I guess I can't use it either.

I'm so confused now!!


A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!

Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Ernie] #159827 06/12/2015 2:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee Offline
Shooting Expert
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
 Originally Posted By: Ernie
Might as well just give up and go completely with RIFLES
;\)

Should probably just stick with a 308 Win as anything bigger would be cheating.


I've been telling you this for YEARS!!! You finally listen!!


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Zee] #159828 06/12/2015 2:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper Offline
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Posts: 3,625
 Originally Posted By: Zee
 Originally Posted By: Ernie
Might as well just give up and go completely with RIFLES
;\)

Should probably just stick with a 308 Win as anything bigger would be cheating.


I've been telling you this for YEARS!!! You finally listen!!


Then I'll GLADLY stick with cheating!!!

Last edited by raptortrapper; 06/12/2015 2:05 PM. Reason: Cause I got fat fingers

A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!

Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Raptortrapper] #159832 06/12/2015 2:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee Offline
Shooting Expert
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
 Originally Posted By: raptortrapper
 Originally Posted By: Zee
 Originally Posted By: Ernie
Might as well just give up and go completely with RIFLES
;\)

Should probably just stick with a 308 Win as anything bigger would be cheating.


I've been telling you this for YEARS!!! You finally listen!!


Then I'll GLADLY stick with cheating!!!


If you ain't cheat'n........you ain't try'n.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Rifle rounds... Why ? [Re: Zee] #159833 06/12/2015 2:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie Offline
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Posts: 5,512
First time I heard that phrase was from a friend who served as a SEAL. We shot a couple of matches together before he moved to Montana


Ernie the Un-Tactical
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