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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164088 10/07/2015 3:51 PM
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This tangent conversation kinda reminds me of another. Dude on another forum once said that .38Spl brass was weak and shouldn't be loaded to higher pressures. Not even +P. Now, I'm not one that keeps very good records of such things, so I never really know how many firings my cases have seen. So I took some once-fired Winchester .38Spl (not +P) cases and loaded them over and over again with Keith's .38-44 load to see how many it would take to start seeing issues. I shot them in a Ruger Old Model .357 Blackhawk. I gave up after 24 firings and put the cases back into circulation. The point being that there are a lot of myths and legends that folks take as gospel without ever having questioned it, let alone tested to prove them right or wrong. The myth about weak .45Colt cases is a good example. The fact that someone would interject such a strong uninformed and inexperienced opinion is bad enough. Not changing their tune and remaining defensive when confronted with the tested and proven truth is truly baffling but not at all surprising.


 Originally Posted By: raptortrapper
Oh! Hey Craig!! If ya end up getting that crappy ruger for the $100 bucks you offered, I'll buy it off ya for $150.

Ha ha, in your dreams! I'm gonna start a home for wayward $100 .45 Blackhawks to make them into lamp stands and paint pink flowers on them, because apparently that's all they're good for.


 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
You can either take the opportunity to learn something or you can puff up like a bullfrog and act like I spit on your dog.

I guess we kinda got our answer on that one.
;\)



 Originally Posted By: sixshot
...but when you go to heavy weight bullets the 45, in good brass & in a Ruger easily out performs it.

Well, not really. They stay within 100fps of each other. With the edge usually going to the .44Mag.


 Originally Posted By: sixshot
The Winchester & Remington cases with the crimped case work fine for these loads & even last quite a while with somewhat higher pressures.

I'm leery of the crimped cases after having them separate at the cannelure on the first reload.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164091 10/07/2015 4:19 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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 Quote:
Well, not really. They stay within 100fps of each other. With the edge usually going to the .44Mag.


With a caveat. One reason the 44 allows for more pressure, and hence more velocity, is that there is more steel surrounding the smaller case in a standard cylinder. In a 5 shot 45 Colt with a heavy cylinder you can step on it a bit and run right with the 44 mag with heavy slugs, and even exceed it. The difference on game between the two is rather insignificant, although the 45 seems to be slightly less violent on the shooter to me.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164092 10/07/2015 4:24 PM
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Craig44 Offline
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The .45's case capacity really comes into play in the custom five-shots. Of course, at that point, one might want the bigger hammer in the form of the .475, .480 or various .500's.
;\)

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164093 10/07/2015 4:33 PM
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 Quote:
I'm leery of the crimped cases after having them separate at the cannelure on the first reload.


I have some previously fired Winchester brass I bought form someone that has a rather significant crimped ring just slightly foreward of halfway up the case that you can see inside the case as well and I have yet to load those because of that. It just looks like a problem waiting to happen.

I have some CBC cases that have a very slight ring on the outside of the case, and not as noticeable inside the case as the Win, right where the base of a 250 XTP sets when seated. I have loaded these with heavy loads several times and they are still going strong.

It just makes me wonder why either of them do that.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164098 10/07/2015 5:39 PM
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They originally did that to keep the bullet from pushing down into the case. The cannelure was placed just under the bullet. I've got a bunch of Remington's .38Spl FBI load and that brass separates every time.

I have some old Winchester brass that has the faint ring and I don't remember any of them failing.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164099 10/07/2015 5:47 PM
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 Quote:
They originally did that to keep the bullet from pushing down into the case. The cannelure was placed just under the bullet.


I was thinking along those lines. Did they not crimp the bullet then, and do they not crimp the bullet now? Seems as if they are clinging to the past. I always use Starline for my hunting loads, but use others for practice and such. Won't use the Win for anything but mouse fart loads if even that.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164102 10/07/2015 6:43 PM
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Dang so I guess the box of Winchesters I bought with the intent to reload the brass is a bust lol

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Sam86] #164106 10/08/2015 12:22 AM
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Craig, I think you need to re look at the heavy loads in the 44 vs the 45 & I'm not talking about 5 shot cylinders. I may have to look for it but in a long ago article by Ross Seyfried titled, I think " Turbo Charging the 45" something like that he made it pretty plain that the 45 at 32,ooo & heavy cast slugs was out performing the 44 maggie at 40,000. Again, this was with 6 shot guns & only heavy weight bullets. The standard weight slugs were pretty much a toss up. And 100 fps with BIG bullets is a fair amount.
As for the cases with the cannelure I reserve them for 9 grs. of Unique & don't think I've ever thrown one away & most are several years old. It usually irons out after 3-4 firings as most on here know.

Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164109 10/08/2015 12:44 AM
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I use 45 brass from starline, american eagle, and one other company that escapes me right now, and I have yet to throw any of them away. No telling how many rounds I've shot out of them, but they are still going. My 460's are a different story. I get about 10 rounds out of them, then they start coming apart.

I'd like to see that article if you can find it Sixshot. That sounds interesting.


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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164110 10/08/2015 12:51 AM
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I have some old .45 colt cases from my silhouette days still going .Think early 1980 something. I reserve them for lighter loads now and will lose the odd case to a split neck once in a while but they are 1980 vintage. Don't shoot the old [first .45]7 1/2 in Ruger much anymore either since the 4 5/8 and 5 1/2 came along.Son will get it and all the cases both old and new,One day! Guess I'll keep the old 4 5/8th .45 ,feels so damn comfortable in my hand. Thanks for the generous offers though.


junebug
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164118 10/08/2015 1:52 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Craig, I think you need to re look at the heavy loads in the 44 vs the 45 & I'm not talking about 5 shot cylinders. I may have to look for it but in a long ago article by Ross Seyfried titled, I think " Turbo Charging the 45" something like that he made it pretty plain that the 45 at 32,ooo & heavy cast slugs was out performing the 44 maggie at 40,000. Again, this was with 6 shot guns & only heavy weight bullets. The standard weight slugs were pretty much a toss up. And 100 fps with BIG bullets is a fair amount.

That information is outdated. Much has changed in the 30yrs since the Linebaugh/Seyfried collaboration. The .44Mag can sling a 355gr 100fps faster than the .45Colt can manage with a 360gr. Same for the 330gr class.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164138 10/08/2015 1:58 PM
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The article Dick mentioned is in the June/July 2000 issue of Handloader (205). The title of it was Turbocharging the 45 Colt. Good reading!

Its always going to be easier to make a wider bullet go faster with a little less pressure all things equal. Can't beat physics...Just depends on how close you want to push the envelope, so with two bullets this close in size, they are going to be very similar, one just does it with less pressure. Personally, I don't care just how hard they can be run, it just isn't necessary. If I need to run a 45/44 that hard, I probably should grab a different gun from the safe in a larger caliber or more case capacity in the same caliber. Go shoot a few more critters with your sixgun and you will see that they nice middle of the road loads work just as well as a fire breather. In the field, I can't tell the difference except in recoil. As alway, the most important thing is to hit what you aim at, so its better to back off the throttle if you have to in order to ensure shot placement.

I stop my 44s about 315 grains and the 45s about the same area in weight and start the 475s at the 385 mark and go up from there. In the lower 48, if you can't kill it with a 260-300 class slug in the 44 or the 45 at 1100-1200 fps, then you probably aren't shooting very well number one and its a fight you shouldn't have started to be honest. The larger 475/500 class of guns are nice but not necessary at all. They are a way to shove a wider bullet with more weight at the same speed mentioned for me for fun but they don't do anything for me that the 44/45 won't do. If I were hunting Africa or something that can eat me, I would rethink it and move to the bigger gun with the bullet weight on my side but my velocity will not likely change. A good hard solid at 1200 fps will do anything I ever want. Hence the reason I don't get in the top end velocity arguments of which is better. To me, it just doesn't play a part in the equation.


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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: GlennS] #164145 10/08/2015 3:03 PM
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Whether or not it's necessary or whether those loads are useful is not really the point. Because I agree. The point is that there is this oft-repeated notion that the .45Colt is better with heavier bullets and it's simply not true. Even if it was true 30yrs ago, it isn't any longer. Seyfried's "Turbocharging" article may have been written in 2000 but the idea is rooted in Linebaugh's work in the 1980's.

Having shot comparable loads in nearly identical guns in both chamberings, I see the "less pressure" argument as an answer in search of a question.

And I don't know why you guys would assume I hadn't read all this material multiple times.

I agree on the "over .45 club", to a point. The .44Mag and .45Colt do a fine job for most critters in North America and even the big bears of Alaska. However, for anything bigger than deer, I do believe the larger wound channels provided by the .475 and .500 are more effective. It certainly never hurts to make a bigger hole with a big LBT.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: GlennS] #164146 10/08/2015 3:05 PM
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Not sure how time can change pressure, it was 15 years ago that Ross wrote that article in Handloader #205, June issue, but in one paragraph he quotes from the #26 Hodgdon manual where the 45 can run a 300 gr. bullet at 1330 fps at 30,00 CUP, while it takes 35,000-38,000 CUP for the 44 to reach 1300 fps with the same bullet weight. Anway we're really splitting hairs here because when we get up to the really heavy bullets, say 340-360 gr. stuff my feeling is that its time to move up in caliber. The 480/475 caliber guns don't have the same recoil impulse & don't need to be pushed to higher pressures to perform. Using my FA 475L in Africa, my Ruger SRH 480 & recently departed Harton 480 here in Idaho with big bullets at more modest velocities makes a lot more sense, let that big, flat bullet do the work instead of the sharp recoil, your mileage may differ.

Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164149 10/08/2015 4:38 PM
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Time doesn't change pressure but it does change bullet selection. In the current Hodgdon manual, we see 330's at 1350fps and 355's at 1250fps. They beat the .45 by 100fps at similar bullet weights. I've verified these velocities in my own guns.

The difference in pressure is irrelevant. However, looking at starting loads for the .44 and max loads for the .45, what we see is that the .44 produces the same velocity at the same pressure. That extra pressure is not for nothing and goes into that extra 100fps.

While we're quoting Seyfried, let's not forget that he used 350-360gr bullets on his Cape buffalo.

The overall point being that the .45 is not better with heavy bullets and the two are all but interchangeable. The .45 'may' be a tiny bit bigger (depending on meplat size) and the .44 may be a little bit faster. The difference is a wash.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164151 10/08/2015 4:49 PM
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Same size differential between the .45s and .475s and no one denies it as a step up, so why put the .44 and .45 in the same category? Just curious.

I would love to see how a 355 grain .429 actually performs. A number of years ago I tested a 405 grain bullet in the .44 Mag and it was pretty much a disaster in every regard. Have you tested 355s? Are they accurate? Did you try them on game? If so, how did they perform? I know in my testing the .45 Colt will easily sling 360s with great accuracy and they penetrate straight. Just curious. I would like to test such loads.


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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Whitworth] #164153 10/08/2015 5:08 PM
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Whit, I know that the Garrett 330 grainers worked great when I used them on several occasions. Heavier than I prefer in that caliber but you can't deny they work! a 355 .429 would be long beast but not as bad as that 405 grainer!!

My all time favorite heavier weight 44 slug is the RCBS 300 SWC-GC. It is about 313-315 grains ready to shoot and runs about 1400+ from the 10" Ruger and is CRAZY accurate. I have killed a number of critters with that one. Not a big meplat that everyone wants these days but it has yet to fail me when I use it hunting. I think for a heavier weight 44, its tough to beat that one and the 300 WFN or LFN gas checked versions. I started hunting with the 44 with the 300 WFNGC. It was plenty accurate from the Rugers back then and hits like a train.


"Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: GlennS] #164166 10/08/2015 9:28 PM
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I like using heavy for caliber bullets no matter what caliber I'm shooting. I like the 335gr in my 45 Colt. 440gr in my 500JRH. But the 460 is the odd ball out as I shoot 300gr jacketed bullets through it. It was built with a different function in mind though -- Distance. The 300gr XTP MAG really shines with that application.

I understand what you're saying about the hot loads, and agree 100% that they aren't needed. I also agree that 90% of hunting can be done with a 45 Colt, or even a 44 magnum for that matter. But hey, if I want to shoot a 500JRH, or a 600 Nitro revolver, as long as I can be accurate, and I enjoy shooting them, and WANT to shoot them, why shouldn't I? It's all just personal preference anyway, as long as we get our shots in the proper place. A bad shot with a hot load out of my 500JRH won't do NEAR the job your 44 magnum will do with a light load and correct placement. We've all said this and agreed to it a 100 times. As for my thinking, anything after that is just preference, and nothing more. I like big bores. I like heavy bullets. I like running them fast. Doesn't mean I "NEED" to do it to kill anything. Just means I WANT to do it.

I see it like this:
Why would anyone drive a BWM when they can get there in a Pinto? BECAUSE THEY CAN!!

Last edited by raptortrapper; 10/10/2015 1:18 AM.

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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Raptortrapper] #164172 10/09/2015 1:16 AM
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Gotta love it! Smaller case with a smaller diameter bullet & its faster than a bigger case with the same weight bullet. We're still mixing apples & oranges but its been intertaining. I don't think anyone is assuming anything, very few here know each other on a personal basis but its for sure we all have some experience on both calibers. Question is, in the real world are we just shooting deer or have we used both calibers on bigger game & seen some actual difference between the two calibers? Tick, Tick, Tick!

Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164173 10/09/2015 1:27 AM
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It's pretty much six of one and a half dozen of the other, on the receiving end. But, in my experience moving up to a larger diameter case with the same bullet weight makes it a wee bit easier on the shooter.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164184 10/09/2015 4:49 AM
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I've actually taken more "big" animals with the 44 magnum than I have with the 45. I'll also be using the 44 maggie starting saturday when deer season starts.

Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164192 10/09/2015 3:25 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Gotta love it! Smaller case with a smaller diameter bullet & its faster than a bigger case with the same weight bullet. We're still mixing apples & oranges but its been intertaining.

How is it apples to oranges?

Let's not get distracted. You said with heavy bullets the .45 "outperforms" the .44Mag. If the .44 gives you 100fps higher velocity with equal weight bullets well over 300gr, how is your statement true?

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Whitworth] #164194 10/09/2015 4:48 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Same size differential between the .45s and .475s and no one denies it as a step up, so why put the .44 and .45 in the same category? Just curious.

Because of the data provided. Because the .44 and .45 operate with the same weight bullets. Bullets that are the extreme for them are light for the .475. Because while .45 bullets may be larger in diameter, sometimes the meplat diameter is not in its favor. No one ever mentions this, it is always assumed that the .45 is bigger but often they are the same. Sometimes the .44 is "bigger".

The .475 is more of everything. Larger bore, longer case, a lot more pressure. The .475 has enough case capacity and pressure range to utilize heavy bullets like 430's at 1350fps. Same for the .500's. The gap between the .44/.45 and .475/.500 is much broader than it is between the .44 and .45, or the .475 and .500. The .475 and .500's are significantly more of everything.

Which bullet is "bigger"? The 335gr .45 in the center and the 355gr .44 at the right are capable of the same velocity. The meplats are within .005" of each other. Yet the .44 bullet is 20gr heavier with a sectional density equal to a 400gr .45cal bullet. While the 310gr .44 at the left has the biggest meplat of all. The argument not being that the .44 is better. The argument is that the same ole "greater performance at less pressure" or that "the .45 is better with heavy bullets" represents outdated thinking. IMHO, the .44 is slightly denser and slightly faster while the .45 is 'usually' slightly larger. The net difference being a wash.




 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
I would love to see how a 355 grain .429 actually performs. A number of years ago I tested a 405 grain bullet in the .44 Mag and it was pretty much a disaster in every regard. Have you tested 355s? Are they accurate? Did you try them on game? If so, how did they perform? I know in my testing the .45 Colt will easily sling 360s with great accuracy and they penetrate straight. Just curious. I would like to test such loads.

I've never used them on critters because I've had no need for bullets that heavy. However, the 355's were very accurate on paper. About 3" at 100yds out of a Bisley Hunter. Hopefully Dad will take his buck with the 355's in a couple weeks. I'll be using 355's, except in the .480.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Whitworth] #164195 10/09/2015 4:55 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Same size differential between the .45s and .475s and no one denies it as a step up, so why put the .44 and .45 in the same category? Just curious.


Exactly Whit. But think of it in the 480 category just to keep the case lengths the same for the purposes of capacity. PHYSICS DOES NOT CHANGE, since we want to discuss that everything has changed. That is one thing I'm pretty certain of. It will always be easier for us to push a wider projectile of the same weight at the same or more velocity due to pressures, expansion ratios etc. No different that trying to run a 220 grain bullet in a 30-06 versus doing the same in the 35 Whelen. Same exact case but the Whelen will run that weight bullet a good 200 fps more than the 06. I just don't see what there is to argue about but we know there are some folks that will argue with a rock if they think its listening and they can prove to that rock how "smart" they are.

Cool button on the member profiles on this site in case you need it. click on the profile and hit the "ignore this user" button. Freaking Wonderful invention and will take a lot of the headache out of reading through posts! I just used it, super cool, helps immensely with the internet experts!


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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164196 10/09/2015 5:00 PM
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Well, we've beat this one up pretty hard but no one is getting rude & maybe we'll all learn something here but lets try one more time. In the Hogdgon #26 manual (pressure tested) the 44 magnum (which is my favorite) needed 35,000-38000 cup to reach 1300 fps with a 300 gr. slug. The 45 Colt (my second favorite) only needed 30,000 cup to run that same 300 gr. slug 1330 fps. How is it possible that all of a sudden the roles are reversed when we go to an even heavier bullet? The 45 case still have quite a bit more volume while still allowing somewhat more pressure to the 44 maggie. The only way is for the 44 maggie to EXCEED pressure limits, thats the only way if we use the same style bullets in both guns. You said pressures didn't change over the years, bullet styles changed. Are you using a strain gauge or some other type of pressure testing equipment to get your figures, just curious?


Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164202 10/09/2015 6:16 PM
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Glenn, is there a reason why you're making this personal? This is just a discussion and so far it has been very civil. Have I made a personal attack? Or am I just making an argument you don't like? Do you think the data is inaccurate? Or that I'm lying? The answer has ALWAYS been right there in the Hodgdon loading data but for some reason, 'some' folks do everything they can to avoid admitting the obvious. This 'should' be a simple discussion but it's ALWAYS wrought with deflections and defensive responses. It seems very childish to make a show out of putting me on your ignore list for basically just pointing out what is in Hodgdon's published data. How old are you?
\:\(


Dick, the data is right there in the Hodgdon manual or on the website. I have presented nothing new or original.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164217 10/10/2015 1:36 AM
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Craig, I just have Hogdgon #26 but I'll got look at their website to see how pressures can flip flop. Its really not an isssue, I've taken many head of big game bigger than deer with both calibers but its been a fun & interesting post except for a couple of personal attacks that make no sense at all.
At the very beginning when the guy made some serious errors about 45 loads & weak brass a couple of you guys really took him apart, way beyond what was necessary. Of course he was wrong on every count & needed to be corrected but it went far beyond that. He got stomped on pretty bad & I'm sure he won't be back after the beating he took.
Asking Glenn how old he is was another personal dig that really didn't need to happen but for whatever reason the topic we've been discussing got ugly again. Glenn is a very sharp fellow & highly respected in the handgun community, trust me on that one, I know! I don't know you but if you ever get out here to Idaho we need to go have a steak together & discuss guns.....you're buying! I'll see to it that you shoot something bigger than paper or a deer, 44 or 45, your call.I'm done.

Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Scienceguy] #164219 10/10/2015 2:18 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Scienceguy
13 grains of HS-6 and a 300-330 grain bullet makes for a sweetheart of a shooter. Should yield 1000-1150 fps. Very easy load.


Agreed. Problem here is I haven't seen HS-6 around these parts for a looong time. I have been using Titegroup to achieve similar end results, but HS-6 is more flexible.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164220 10/10/2015 4:07 AM
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And once again, we are diverted from the topic at hand. None of this has anything to do with the statement you made and I refuted. Once again, we can't discuss published Hodgdon data without it getting personal. I don't understand it.


 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Craig, I just have Hogdgon #26 but I'll got look at their website to see how pressures can flip flop. Its really not an isssue, I've taken many head of big game bigger than deer with both calibers but its been a fun & interesting post except for a couple of personal attacks that make no sense at all.
At the very beginning when the guy made some serious errors about 45 loads & weak brass a couple of you guys really took him apart, way beyond what was necessary. Of course he was wrong on every count & needed to be corrected but it went far beyond that. He got stomped on pretty bad & I'm sure he won't be back after the beating he took.
Asking Glenn how old he is was another personal dig that really didn't need to happen but for whatever reason the topic we've been discussing got ugly again. Glenn is a very sharp fellow & highly respected in the handgun community, trust me on that one, I know! I don't know you but if you ever get out here to Idaho we need to go have a steak together & discuss guns.....you're buying! I'll see to it that you shoot something bigger than paper or a deer, 44 or 45, your call.I'm done.

Dick

Dick, #26 is 23yrs old. Did you even consider that things might have changed in that time? Did you think I was making it up?

Wolftrap was wrong and he chose the way he responded to the correction, not me or anyone else. He didn't have to get defensive but he did. I don't see anything personal in response. His misinformation was handled as well as could be expected. Funny how you guys respect the blunt truth from folks like Taffin, Murbach or Jurras but can't tolerate it from anyone else.

An unnecessary dig at Glenn? Wasn't that after he referred to me as an "internet expert" and put me on his ignore list? Not to even mention the exchanges on SA.com. Which all started with his defending rude behavior with some of his own. Glenn didn't "need" to bring that baggage from there to here but he did. You guys in "the clique" are all the same. You see everyone else's faults but your own.


 Originally Posted By: sixshot
I'll see to it that you shoot something bigger than paper or a deer, 44 or 45, your call.I'm done.

And in fine style, pot, meet kettle. That's a nice personal dig thrown in for good measure.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164221 10/10/2015 4:17 AM
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Craig44 Offline
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And once again, we are diverted from the topic at hand. None of this has anything to do with the statement you made and I refuted. Once again, we can't discuss published Hodgdon data without it getting personal. I don't understand it.


 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Craig, I just have Hogdgon #26 but I'll got look at their website to see how pressures can flip flop. Its really not an isssue, I've taken many head of big game bigger than deer with both calibers but its been a fun & interesting post except for a couple of personal attacks that make no sense at all.
At the very beginning when the guy made some serious errors about 45 loads & weak brass a couple of you guys really took him apart, way beyond what was necessary. Of course he was wrong on every count & needed to be corrected but it went far beyond that. He got stomped on pretty bad & I'm sure he won't be back after the beating he took.
Asking Glenn how old he is was another personal dig that really didn't need to happen but for whatever reason the topic we've been discussing got ugly again. Glenn is a very sharp fellow & highly respected in the handgun community, trust me on that one, I know! I don't know you but if you ever get out here to Idaho we need to go have a steak together & discuss guns.....you're buying! I'll see to it that you shoot something bigger than paper or a deer, 44 or 45, your call.I'm done.

Dick

Dick, #26 is 23yrs old. Did you even consider that things might have changed in that time? Did you think I was making it up?

Wolftrap was wrong and he chose the way he responded to the correction, not me or anyone else. He didn't have to get defensive but he did. I don't see anything personal in response. His misinformation was handled as well as could be expected. Funny how you guys respect the blunt truth from folks like Taffin, Murbach or Jurras but can't tolerate it from anyone else.

An unnecessary dig at Glenn? Wasn't that after he referred to me as an "internet expert" and put me on his ignore list? Not to even mention the exchanges on SA.com. Which all started with his defending rude behavior with some of his own. Glenn didn't "need" to bring that baggage from there to here but he did. You guys in "the clique" are all the same. You see everyone else's faults but your own.


 Originally Posted By: sixshot
I'll see to it that you shoot something bigger than paper or a deer, 44 or 45, your call.I'm done.

And in fine style, pot, meet kettle. That's a nice personal dig thrown in for good measure.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164222 10/10/2015 4:45 AM
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s4s4u Offline
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Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164225 10/10/2015 2:18 PM
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Chance Weldon Offline
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 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Originally Posted By: Scienceguy
13 grains of HS-6 and a 300-330 grain bullet makes for a sweetheart of a shooter. Should yield 1000-1150 fps. Very easy load.


Agreed. Problem here is I haven't seen HS-6 around these parts for a looong time. I have been using Titegroup to achieve similar end results, but HS-6 is more flexible.


My local store keeps HS-6 in stock, but now they've quit stocking H110 and W296.


Formerly TN Lone Wolf

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." - J.K. Rowling
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Chance Weldon] #164227 10/10/2015 2:39 PM
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My apologies to Hayden. We can normally stay on topic.
;\)


Formerly TN Lone Wolf

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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Chance Weldon] #164231 10/10/2015 4:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: TN Lone Wolf
My apologies to Hayden. We can normally stay on topic.
;\)

Till we get to talking about magnum primers anyway....

I saw some HS-6 about a year or so ago. Should have got some to try. I love my H110 loads though, and Titegroup is awesome also. Guess I'll pick up some of the HS-6 next time and try it. Isn't it about the same as Titegroup though for the lighter loads?? Titegroup and H110 pop up here on a regular basis now, so that's why I've gone with them. Think I only saw the HS-6 one time.

Last edited by raptortrapper; 10/10/2015 4:02 PM.

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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Raptortrapper] #164233 10/10/2015 4:52 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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 Quote:
Isn't it about the same as Titegroup though for the lighter loads??


HS-6 falls in between Titegroup and H110 in burn speed, as does performance. You can a little more velocity than TG at similar pressures, but it also takes about 40% more of it per load to do so. I believe it is more forgiving than TG on the pressure curve.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: s4s4u] #164234 10/10/2015 9:28 PM
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 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
Isn't it about the same as Titegroup though for the lighter loads??


HS-6 falls in between Titegroup and H110 in burn speed, as does performance. You can a little more velocity than TG at similar pressures, but it also takes about 40% more of it per load to do so. I believe it is more forgiving than TG on the pressure curve.



Hmmmm..... That's interesting enough for me to give it a shot. I wouldn't mind needing to use a little more powder in my light loads. Kinda been concerned about how little it takes of the Titegroup in a larger case to get the light loads. Just seems like a LOT of air space when it only takes 9 grains in a 45 Colt case. Don't get me wrong-- I like the results I get as far as accuracy, and there really isn't any recoil to that load. It'd just be nice to have a little more powder than air in a case!


A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!

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Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Raptortrapper] #164235 10/10/2015 10:10 PM
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sixshot Offline
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Guess that means I don't get a steak!

Dick

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164236 10/10/2015 11:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Guess that means I don't get a steak!


Dick - I'll sponsor your steak dinner for the same offer...
\:\)


As for the HS-6, 12.5 gr under a 300 WFN gets me 1158 fps

Love the HS-6 for the 45 and 475 for a milder pop on the shooter, not the game.

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: sixshot] #164269 10/11/2015 3:39 PM
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Craig44 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Guess that means I don't get a steak!

Dick


Guess I don't get to have an actual discussion with open minded people about published loading data without being insulted. The strain is more than some can bear.


Since apparently you can't be bothered with looking it up. Here's pics and a link for those who don't know how to zoom. Show me where the .45 outperforms the .44 with heavier bullets:
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/Hodgdon%2045b_1.jpg
.45 data:



.44 data:
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/Hodgdon%2044b.jpg

Re: Need help deciding on a 45 colt load [Re: Craig44] #164276 10/11/2015 5:08 PM
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Gregg Richter Offline
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I studied the above links and:

the "hottest load" for the .44 magnum shows a 355 gr cast bullet at 1247 fps with 37,900 CUP's.

and

the "hottest load" for the .45 shows a 360 gr cast bullet at 1167 fps with only 29,800 CUP's.

These charts show the .44 as throwing a 355 gr. cast bullet 80 fps faster than the .45 throws a 360 gr. cast bullet. The trade-off is the .44 uses 8,100 more CUP's of pressure.

If you throw the .45 360 gr. cast bullet at the same 37,900 CUP's as the .44 uses, it would blow the .44 away in velocity. As someone has been saying over and over again and in different ways, physics is physics and doesn't change.

So who is "right or wrong" here? Both sides are correct. Until pressure is considered RELEVANT. Then the .45 wins.








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