New member here, I was wondering if you guys could help me decide what load to use for whitetail this fall. I'm going to try and use my Blackhawk if I get a close shot. My shots will be inside 50 yards, preferably closer.

The two loads I'm deciding between are a 230 xtp at about 950 fps and a 300 xtp at about 800 fps. I'm using Accurate #5 (not the best powder for this but it's what I got) and can't find +P data for these two bullets, so I can't get them faster with #5.

What would be your choice? Thanks guys

-Hayden

I think you'd be better served with a cast slug with a wide meplat at those velocities.

Hornady has a section in its loading manuals for "Ruger/TC only" handloads.

Also, there's this: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

I mostly use jacketed bullets for big game (elk and deer) in my revolvers but tend to agree with s4s4u here. The reason I say this is that the jacketed bullets you mention have to be run "up to speed" to work correctly as far as expansion goes. The cast slugs don't.

The loads you mention may not get the needed velocity to work correctly.

If you use the search engine feature here you will find a "TON" of loads for the .45 Colt.

Others with more experience with the .45 Colt will likely chime in here. I use a .454 Casull and .475 Linebaugh, and I run them fairly fast.

JMHO.

Exactly. My goto bullet for the 45 Colt is the 250 XTP, but I push it a lot faster than 900 fps. You need penetration, and if the bullet does expand slightly at low velocity it isn't going to penetrate as well as a heavy cast slug would. Not saying it won't kill a deer but I don't think it is the best option in this case.

One other thing, don't rely on the velocity data posted in a manual as gospel.

X2

Thanks for the input guys!

I'm getting into bullet casting as well but I don't have a load worked up for my cast bullets yet (Lee 452-252 SWC) I'm hoping to have them ready In time (hunting October 15-16) but in case I don't, I was wondering which jacketed load to go with.

So am I correct In assuming the 300 XTP will have dismal performance at 800 fps? And the 230 XTP won't penetrate enough? Which would be the safer bet? Isn't the 230 XTP designed for 45 ACP velocities (850 fps)? So as long as I could get passthrough penetration I should be safe right? (Assuming proper shot placement).

Thanks! -Hayden

The 230 is intended for the 45 ACP, but may work well enough in the 45 Colt if you place it well. There is no cannelure to crimp into, but as you are not running them real fast they should stay put under recoil. I'd be skeptical of the 300 at such a slow MV, and it will be travelling even slower by the time it gets to the target. Given only the two, I'd go with the one I could drive fastest.

You don't necessarily need pass through penetration, but you do need to get to the vitals and do some damage. Pass through penetration without expansion is not really a good recipe with that nose profile.

Do you have a chronograph to verify the velocities?

If you have to choose between the 2 jacketed bullets, the 230gr would be the best bet trying to get jacketed bullet performance. My advise would be to buy enough cast bullets to get you through this season from one of the companies that cast them. Use a WFN in the 250 grain range for the speeds you have listed. Western bullets and Leadheads are reasonably priced IMO.

I have never loaded .45 Long Colt but I would guess some 2400 or H110/296 or even BlueDot would get the most out of the cartridge.
I would suggest calling around local gun shops for some powder and go with one of the bullets these guys suggest. You would have to get your parents to make the purchase since you are blessed with youth! If money is a problem, I'll make a donation to a very worthy cause of an up and coming handgun hunter! No doubt others here would do the same. Just gotta keep it legal.

The 230xtp is designed for the ACP thus will work at ACP velocities, but may not shoot well in you 45 colt. The 230xtp bullet is .451 dia. and the xtp's (and most 45 colt bullets) are .452-.454 dia. You'll just have to experiment an see.

Or.... PM someone, like wvhittman, that had more data on more bullets performance in field conditions than most bullet manufactures.

To be fair to the game I would just buy a box of good ammo to use until I had proper handloads.

Thanks for all the input and support you guys!!!

I think I'll be able to load up some of my cast bullets this weekend and see if I find a load that works well, if not I'll go with the 230 XTP like you guys recommended.

I can't stress enough how thankful I am to have access to all the great knowledge on this forum, and I look forward to learning from all of you.

I'll be sure to post an update following my hunt

Thanks! -Hayden

Wish you all the best on your hunt. As always, shot placement is first and foremost regardless of the projectile.

For deer hunting with a .45 Colt, I recommend and use a 250 XTP driven by 2400 (17.5 to 19.5, depending upon the gun). You should be able to locate both.

So,, at what velocities are the .45 caliber, 300 grain XTP's designed to operate correctly? I guess I'm searching for a "minimum" velocity number.

Hornady site shows 800 fps for the velocity threshold for the 230, 250, and 300 gr XTP's (non-mag version)

Hornaday 250 xtp over 20.5 2400 and a LPM primer. This is a Ruger handgun load not recommended for a S&W. If you need a S&aw load I would do 16.5 2400 250 hrs hard cast with LPM.
Can't go wrong with either.

Thanks. For whitetail, I think anything 300 grains moving at 800 fps will work. They are so thin skinned and all. If you are reloading you can easily top 800 fps anyway. If one were to hunt something thick and tuff such as hogs, then, yea, you want more.

SC hunter, you got rain? We "only" got 11 inches, but I'm on up the road from you.

Perhaps, but a WFN would be a better choice than an XTP, IMO, at that velocity. If it's 800 at the muzzle it will be moving a bit slower by the time it gets to the animal and we aren't even sure he is getting 800 as that number is coming from a manual and not a chrony.

Plenty of 45 LC data out there.
What you have to be careful is thin wall brass. You can drive a 255 SWC out of a 6 inch barrel at 800 - 850, but kiss the brass goodbye.
Stay away from fast powders and don't sweat the slow pushing powder. Please, no magnum primers.
If your reloading is successful, should be able to down your game within 20 to 40 yards with good placement.
Star Brass once offered 45 LC brass which 1000 fps was easily attainable. Try getting some and throw the old brass away.
If you don't cast/reload, get Ammo Plus. The Blackhawk should handle them all day.

Not quite following this, but Starline brass is capable of a whole lot more than 1,000 fps as is the Ruger so chambered (it will take 30,000 psi loads all day long every day).

Agreed. I have shot all brands of previously fired brass in my 45 Colt, at velocities approaching 1300 fps with a 250 and get several loadings from each. For my "proof" loads that I hunt with I have been using new Starline brass, but have no qualmes about using other brands as well.

I don't know what you're talking about and neither do you.

You mean Starline? They still make .45Colt brass, it's probably the best and most popular.

800-850fps loads destroy cases? That's hogwash, original blackpowder loads with folded head cases were 950-1000fps. Modern solid head brass will last dozens of firings at that pressure. I've got .45 brass that I've been using for 15yrs.

Any decent modern, solid head brass that does not have a cannelure mid-way up the case will work fine for standard loads. Linebaugh and Seyfried found Federal cases to be best for loads up to 55,000psi but that was before Starline.

I think he means the old cases with the crimp ring bellow the bullet....I can see that having possible issues for multiple loadings...some of this rings are almost creased.
As a side note...I have not loaded with those cases.

Agree, but I have the lightweight Ruger with aluminum grip..not good for high stepping a load. Plus a couple of Vaquro's which handle your loads. Too much for too little return in pain management.
My suggestion, save the 45 for SASS and get 44 mag in same configuration.
Than we be talk'n!
Cimmaron 45LC takes a licking and keeps on beating.

I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't seen Starline brass over a dozen years.
Sir, I have about every important 45 mold out there. But, I see now it's a pissing game which I left behind a long time ago.
Did you miss something here? It's a new shooter wanting some knowledge about a 45LC in a ruger which wasn't designed for magnum pressures.
You don't know rhit about me, let's keep it that way.
OK, just looked at your posting score. Top Dog are you. Guess it's about you owning the board. SMH

I don't see one valid point you've made. All either completely wrong or misleading at best. It's not a "pissing game". Your mold collection has nothing to do with it. MY post count has nothing to do with it. It's not personal. You just posted a bunch of misinformation and it needs to be addressed. You can either take the opportunity to learn something or you can puff up like a bullfrog and act like I spit on your dog.

You're wrong about .45 Colt brass.

You're wrong about slow powders.

You're wrong about fast powders.

You're wrong about magnum primers.

There's nothing wrong with loading the cartridge anywhere from standard pressure to 32,000psi in large frame Rugers. We KNOW this because we actually do it, all the time.

Starline is probably the most prolific manufacturer of brass at present. How can you not know this?

The only significant difference between your .45 Blackhawk and a .44 Super Blackhawk of the same length is the grip frame.

You need to educate yourself to avoid further embarrassment.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Well said, and gave me a chuckle too

My local store has several thousand rounds of Starline brass for sale right now in .45 Colt, 10 mm ,.357 ..44 mag and others . MY Light weight Ruger with aluminum grip frame not good for highstepping loads. Dang I am going to go right out and sell mine tommorow. [NOT !!!!!!!!!!!] Definetly going to have to throw the BULL SH-- flag on you everything you've said so far.

I'll give ya a hundred bucks for that crappy ole Blackhawk.

The experience here on this sight precludes getting away with inaccurate information.

Starline pretty much cornered the brass market a long time ago, their brass is excellent & lasts forever. I also have a bunch of Federal brass that I've been shooting heavy 45 loads in for a long time. Primer pockets are still tight, no cracks at the case mouth & its several years old.
The 44 is an excellent caliber but when you go to heavy weight bullets the 45, in good brass & in a Ruger easily out performs it. Use the 800-850 fps loads in the old Colts or replics or for cowboy action shooting. The Winchester & Remington cases with the crimped case work fine for these loads & even last quite a while with somewhat higher pressures.

Dick

Sir, I don't own Starline brass. Never bought it 20 years ago and sure as rhit, not going to buy them now. Just suggested them for the new shooter.
When I mention molds, it was about SASS type loads with light loads. But, now..[censored] it. Not going to play War-Room here.
You guys have a good time stroking it for what's it worth.
End of line:

I just got caught up on this thread, and about died laughing! Starline can't handle 1000fps? HA! Best one I've heard so far this year!

I guess I better quit loading full house loads with H110 and 335gr hardcast! And I better tone it down before I ruin my custom "aluminum" ruger blackhawk!! Ah heck.... might as well sell everything I got and get a boatload of 44 mags, I mean .429 mags. But then again, why would I do that and leave all that extra horsepower on the table? Nah, on second thought, think I'll keep my 45 Colt, and keep on laughing at this thread too!

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Oh! Hey Craig!! If ya end up getting that crappy ruger for the $100 bucks you offered, I'll buy it off ya for $150. I wanna do a custom 327 Federal build, and apparently, that's all those Ruger Blackhawks can handle anyway!!! Man, I've been misinformed all this time! Someone better call Jack Huntington and let him know about this before someone gets a hand blown off!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

This is priceless!!!!

I think we've got some thread drift going on here.

Maybe just a smidge....

Here, I'll try to help...

Original poster, my favorite load in my 45 Colt Ruger Super Blackhawk is 23.3gr H110, 335gr hardcast from Cast Performance, Starline brass, and a Winchester Large Pistol primer (which also happens to be approved for Magnum use also). This load gives me 1175 fps, but I think I'm gonna stop using that load as it is apparently WAY too fast to use with Starline brass (Dang it! There I go drifting again... HAHA!!! Now where is that sarcasm button again???). As for a light load, I like to use 9gr of Titegroup in place of the H110, but keep everything else the same.

Both of these loads have been very good out of my gun, but be aware that the H110 load is NOT for anything other than Ruger's and TC's.

There... I did my best to get back on topic, and did it all with a straight face, for the most part!

Why are you getting defensive? It's all good.

13 grains of HS-6 and a 300-330 grain bullet makes for a sweetheart of a shooter. Should yield 1000-1150 fps. Very easy load.

Nothing personal, but you were expousing information that is contrary to the actual knowledge of some very experienced handgun hunters here. I would conservatively estimate that there are at lease a half dozen centuries worth of combined experience among the members here. To quote one of them:



'nuff said!

This tangent conversation kinda reminds me of another. Dude on another forum once said that .38Spl brass was weak and shouldn't be loaded to higher pressures. Not even +P. Now, I'm not one that keeps very good records of such things, so I never really know how many firings my cases have seen. So I took some once-fired Winchester .38Spl (not +P) cases and loaded them over and over again with Keith's .38-44 load to see how many it would take to start seeing issues. I shot them in a Ruger Old Model .357 Blackhawk. I gave up after 24 firings and put the cases back into circulation. The point being that there are a lot of myths and legends that folks take as gospel without ever having questioned it, let alone tested to prove them right or wrong. The myth about weak .45Colt cases is a good example. The fact that someone would interject such a strong uninformed and inexperienced opinion is bad enough. Not changing their tune and remaining defensive when confronted with the tested and proven truth is truly baffling but not at all surprising.



Ha ha, in your dreams! I'm gonna start a home for wayward $100 .45 Blackhawks to make them into lamp stands and paint pink flowers on them, because apparently that's all they're good for.



I guess we kinda got our answer on that one.

Well, not really. They stay within 100fps of each other. With the edge usually going to the .44Mag.



I'm leery of the crimped cases after having them separate at the cannelure on the first reload.

With a caveat. One reason the 44 allows for more pressure, and hence more velocity, is that there is more steel surrounding the smaller case in a standard cylinder. In a 5 shot 45 Colt with a heavy cylinder you can step on it a bit and run right with the 44 mag with heavy slugs, and even exceed it. The difference on game between the two is rather insignificant, although the 45 seems to be slightly less violent on the shooter to me.

The .45's case capacity really comes into play in the custom five-shots. Of course, at that point, one might want the bigger hammer in the form of the .475, .480 or various .500's.

I have some previously fired Winchester brass I bought form someone that has a rather significant crimped ring just slightly foreward of halfway up the case that you can see inside the case as well and I have yet to load those because of that. It just looks like a problem waiting to happen.

I have some CBC cases that have a very slight ring on the outside of the case, and not as noticeable inside the case as the Win, right where the base of a 250 XTP sets when seated. I have loaded these with heavy loads several times and they are still going strong.

It just makes me wonder why either of them do that.

They originally did that to keep the bullet from pushing down into the case. The cannelure was placed just under the bullet. I've got a bunch of Remington's .38Spl FBI load and that brass separates every time.

I have some old Winchester brass that has the faint ring and I don't remember any of them failing.

I was thinking along those lines. Did they not crimp the bullet then, and do they not crimp the bullet now? Seems as if they are clinging to the past. I always use Starline for my hunting loads, but use others for practice and such. Won't use the Win for anything but mouse fart loads if even that.

Dang so I guess the box of Winchesters I bought with the intent to reload the brass is a bust lol

Craig, I think you need to re look at the heavy loads in the 44 vs the 45 & I'm not talking about 5 shot cylinders. I may have to look for it but in a long ago article by Ross Seyfried titled, I think " Turbo Charging the 45" something like that he made it pretty plain that the 45 at 32,ooo & heavy cast slugs was out performing the 44 maggie at 40,000. Again, this was with 6 shot guns & only heavy weight bullets. The standard weight slugs were pretty much a toss up. And 100 fps with BIG bullets is a fair amount.
As for the cases with the cannelure I reserve them for 9 grs. of Unique & don't think I've ever thrown one away & most are several years old. It usually irons out after 3-4 firings as most on here know.

Dick

I use 45 brass from starline, american eagle, and one other company that escapes me right now, and I have yet to throw any of them away. No telling how many rounds I've shot out of them, but they are still going. My 460's are a different story. I get about 10 rounds out of them, then they start coming apart.

I'd like to see that article if you can find it Sixshot. That sounds interesting.

I have some old .45 colt cases from my silhouette days still going .Think early 1980 something. I reserve them for lighter loads now and will lose the odd case to a split neck once in a while but they are 1980 vintage. Don't shoot the old [first .45]7 1/2 in Ruger much anymore either since the 4 5/8 and 5 1/2 came along.Son will get it and all the cases both old and new,One day! Guess I'll keep the old 4 5/8th .45 ,feels so damn comfortable in my hand. Thanks for the generous offers though.

That information is outdated. Much has changed in the 30yrs since the Linebaugh/Seyfried collaboration. The .44Mag can sling a 355gr 100fps faster than the .45Colt can manage with a 360gr. Same for the 330gr class.

The article Dick mentioned is in the June/July 2000 issue of Handloader (205). The title of it was Turbocharging the 45 Colt. Good reading!

Its always going to be easier to make a wider bullet go faster with a little less pressure all things equal. Can't beat physics...Just depends on how close you want to push the envelope, so with two bullets this close in size, they are going to be very similar, one just does it with less pressure. Personally, I don't care just how hard they can be run, it just isn't necessary. If I need to run a 45/44 that hard, I probably should grab a different gun from the safe in a larger caliber or more case capacity in the same caliber. Go shoot a few more critters with your sixgun and you will see that they nice middle of the road loads work just as well as a fire breather. In the field, I can't tell the difference except in recoil. As alway, the most important thing is to hit what you aim at, so its better to back off the throttle if you have to in order to ensure shot placement.

I stop my 44s about 315 grains and the 45s about the same area in weight and start the 475s at the 385 mark and go up from there. In the lower 48, if you can't kill it with a 260-300 class slug in the 44 or the 45 at 1100-1200 fps, then you probably aren't shooting very well number one and its a fight you shouldn't have started to be honest. The larger 475/500 class of guns are nice but not necessary at all. They are a way to shove a wider bullet with more weight at the same speed mentioned for me for fun but they don't do anything for me that the 44/45 won't do. If I were hunting Africa or something that can eat me, I would rethink it and move to the bigger gun with the bullet weight on my side but my velocity will not likely change. A good hard solid at 1200 fps will do anything I ever want. Hence the reason I don't get in the top end velocity arguments of which is better. To me, it just doesn't play a part in the equation.

Whether or not it's necessary or whether those loads are useful is not really the point. Because I agree. The point is that there is this oft-repeated notion that the .45Colt is better with heavier bullets and it's simply not true. Even if it was true 30yrs ago, it isn't any longer. Seyfried's "Turbocharging" article may have been written in 2000 but the idea is rooted in Linebaugh's work in the 1980's.

Having shot comparable loads in nearly identical guns in both chamberings, I see the "less pressure" argument as an answer in search of a question.

And I don't know why you guys would assume I hadn't read all this material multiple times.

I agree on the "over .45 club", to a point. The .44Mag and .45Colt do a fine job for most critters in North America and even the big bears of Alaska. However, for anything bigger than deer, I do believe the larger wound channels provided by the .475 and .500 are more effective. It certainly never hurts to make a bigger hole with a big LBT.

Not sure how time can change pressure, it was 15 years ago that Ross wrote that article in Handloader #205, June issue, but in one paragraph he quotes from the #26 Hodgdon manual where the 45 can run a 300 gr. bullet at 1330 fps at 30,00 CUP, while it takes 35,000-38,000 CUP for the 44 to reach 1300 fps with the same bullet weight. Anway we're really splitting hairs here because when we get up to the really heavy bullets, say 340-360 gr. stuff my feeling is that its time to move up in caliber. The 480/475 caliber guns don't have the same recoil impulse & don't need to be pushed to higher pressures to perform. Using my FA 475L in Africa, my Ruger SRH 480 & recently departed Harton 480 here in Idaho with big bullets at more modest velocities makes a lot more sense, let that big, flat bullet do the work instead of the sharp recoil, your mileage may differ.

Dick

Time doesn't change pressure but it does change bullet selection. In the current Hodgdon manual, we see 330's at 1350fps and 355's at 1250fps. They beat the .45 by 100fps at similar bullet weights. I've verified these velocities in my own guns.

The difference in pressure is irrelevant. However, looking at starting loads for the .44 and max loads for the .45, what we see is that the .44 produces the same velocity at the same pressure. That extra pressure is not for nothing and goes into that extra 100fps.

While we're quoting Seyfried, let's not forget that he used 350-360gr bullets on his Cape buffalo.

The overall point being that the .45 is not better with heavy bullets and the two are all but interchangeable. The .45 'may' be a tiny bit bigger (depending on meplat size) and the .44 may be a little bit faster. The difference is a wash.

Same size differential between the .45s and .475s and no one denies it as a step up, so why put the .44 and .45 in the same category? Just curious.

I would love to see how a 355 grain .429 actually performs. A number of years ago I tested a 405 grain bullet in the .44 Mag and it was pretty much a disaster in every regard. Have you tested 355s? Are they accurate? Did you try them on game? If so, how did they perform? I know in my testing the .45 Colt will easily sling 360s with great accuracy and they penetrate straight. Just curious. I would like to test such loads.

Whit, I know that the Garrett 330 grainers worked great when I used them on several occasions. Heavier than I prefer in that caliber but you can't deny they work! a 355 .429 would be long beast but not as bad as that 405 grainer!!

My all time favorite heavier weight 44 slug is the RCBS 300 SWC-GC. It is about 313-315 grains ready to shoot and runs about 1400+ from the 10" Ruger and is CRAZY accurate. I have killed a number of critters with that one. Not a big meplat that everyone wants these days but it has yet to fail me when I use it hunting. I think for a heavier weight 44, its tough to beat that one and the 300 WFN or LFN gas checked versions. I started hunting with the 44 with the 300 WFNGC. It was plenty accurate from the Rugers back then and hits like a train.

I like using heavy for caliber bullets no matter what caliber I'm shooting. I like the 335gr in my 45 Colt. 440gr in my 500JRH. But the 460 is the odd ball out as I shoot 300gr jacketed bullets through it. It was built with a different function in mind though -- Distance. The 300gr XTP MAG really shines with that application.

I understand what you're saying about the hot loads, and agree 100% that they aren't needed. I also agree that 90% of hunting can be done with a 45 Colt, or even a 44 magnum for that matter. But hey, if I want to shoot a 500JRH, or a 600 Nitro revolver, as long as I can be accurate, and I enjoy shooting them, and WANT to shoot them, why shouldn't I? It's all just personal preference anyway, as long as we get our shots in the proper place. A bad shot with a hot load out of my 500JRH won't do NEAR the job your 44 magnum will do with a light load and correct placement. We've all said this and agreed to it a 100 times. As for my thinking, anything after that is just preference, and nothing more. I like big bores. I like heavy bullets. I like running them fast. Doesn't mean I "NEED" to do it to kill anything. Just means I WANT to do it.

I see it like this:
Why would anyone drive a BWM when they can get there in a Pinto? BECAUSE THEY CAN!!

Gotta love it! Smaller case with a smaller diameter bullet & its faster than a bigger case with the same weight bullet. We're still mixing apples & oranges but its been intertaining. I don't think anyone is assuming anything, very few here know each other on a personal basis but its for sure we all have some experience on both calibers. Question is, in the real world are we just shooting deer or have we used both calibers on bigger game & seen some actual difference between the two calibers? Tick, Tick, Tick!

Dick

It's pretty much six of one and a half dozen of the other, on the receiving end. But, in my experience moving up to a larger diameter case with the same bullet weight makes it a wee bit easier on the shooter.

I've actually taken more "big" animals with the 44 magnum than I have with the 45. I'll also be using the 44 maggie starting saturday when deer season starts.

Dick

How is it apples to oranges?

Let's not get distracted. You said with heavy bullets the .45 "outperforms" the .44Mag. If the .44 gives you 100fps higher velocity with equal weight bullets well over 300gr, how is your statement true?

Because of the data provided. Because the .44 and .45 operate with the same weight bullets. Bullets that are the extreme for them are light for the .475. Because while .45 bullets may be larger in diameter, sometimes the meplat diameter is not in its favor. No one ever mentions this, it is always assumed that the .45 is bigger but often they are the same. Sometimes the .44 is "bigger".

The .475 is more of everything. Larger bore, longer case, a lot more pressure. The .475 has enough case capacity and pressure range to utilize heavy bullets like 430's at 1350fps. Same for the .500's. The gap between the .44/.45 and .475/.500 is much broader than it is between the .44 and .45, or the .475 and .500. The .475 and .500's are significantly more of everything.

Which bullet is "bigger"? The 335gr .45 in the center and the 355gr .44 at the right are capable of the same velocity. The meplats are within .005" of each other. Yet the .44 bullet is 20gr heavier with a sectional density equal to a 400gr .45cal bullet. While the 310gr .44 at the left has the biggest meplat of all. The argument not being that the .44 is better. The argument is that the same ole "greater performance at less pressure" or that "the .45 is better with heavy bullets" represents outdated thinking. IMHO, the .44 is slightly denser and slightly faster while the .45 is 'usually' slightly larger. The net difference being a wash.





I've never used them on critters because I've had no need for bullets that heavy. However, the 355's were very accurate on paper. About 3" at 100yds out of a Bisley Hunter. Hopefully Dad will take his buck with the 355's in a couple weeks. I'll be using 355's, except in the .480.

Exactly Whit. But think of it in the 480 category just to keep the case lengths the same for the purposes of capacity. PHYSICS DOES NOT CHANGE, since we want to discuss that everything has changed. That is one thing I'm pretty certain of. It will always be easier for us to push a wider projectile of the same weight at the same or more velocity due to pressures, expansion ratios etc. No different that trying to run a 220 grain bullet in a 30-06 versus doing the same in the 35 Whelen. Same exact case but the Whelen will run that weight bullet a good 200 fps more than the 06. I just don't see what there is to argue about but we know there are some folks that will argue with a rock if they think its listening and they can prove to that rock how "smart" they are.

Cool button on the member profiles on this site in case you need it. click on the profile and hit the "ignore this user" button. Freaking Wonderful invention and will take a lot of the headache out of reading through posts! I just used it, super cool, helps immensely with the internet experts!

Well, we've beat this one up pretty hard but no one is getting rude & maybe we'll all learn something here but lets try one more time. In the Hogdgon #26 manual (pressure tested) the 44 magnum (which is my favorite) needed 35,000-38000 cup to reach 1300 fps with a 300 gr. slug. The 45 Colt (my second favorite) only needed 30,000 cup to run that same 300 gr. slug 1330 fps. How is it possible that all of a sudden the roles are reversed when we go to an even heavier bullet? The 45 case still have quite a bit more volume while still allowing somewhat more pressure to the 44 maggie. The only way is for the 44 maggie to EXCEED pressure limits, thats the only way if we use the same style bullets in both guns. You said pressures didn't change over the years, bullet styles changed. Are you using a strain gauge or some other type of pressure testing equipment to get your figures, just curious?


Dick

Glenn, is there a reason why you're making this personal? This is just a discussion and so far it has been very civil. Have I made a personal attack? Or am I just making an argument you don't like? Do you think the data is inaccurate? Or that I'm lying? The answer has ALWAYS been right there in the Hodgdon loading data but for some reason, 'some' folks do everything they can to avoid admitting the obvious. This 'should' be a simple discussion but it's ALWAYS wrought with deflections and defensive responses. It seems very childish to make a show out of putting me on your ignore list for basically just pointing out what is in Hodgdon's published data. How old are you?

Dick, the data is right there in the Hodgdon manual or on the website. I have presented nothing new or original.

Craig, I just have Hogdgon #26 but I'll got look at their website to see how pressures can flip flop. Its really not an isssue, I've taken many head of big game bigger than deer with both calibers but its been a fun & interesting post except for a couple of personal attacks that make no sense at all.
At the very beginning when the guy made some serious errors about 45 loads & weak brass a couple of you guys really took him apart, way beyond what was necessary. Of course he was wrong on every count & needed to be corrected but it went far beyond that. He got stomped on pretty bad & I'm sure he won't be back after the beating he took.
Asking Glenn how old he is was another personal dig that really didn't need to happen but for whatever reason the topic we've been discussing got ugly again. Glenn is a very sharp fellow & highly respected in the handgun community, trust me on that one, I know! I don't know you but if you ever get out here to Idaho we need to go have a steak together & discuss guns.....you're buying! I'll see to it that you shoot something bigger than paper or a deer, 44 or 45, your call.I'm done.

Dick

Agreed. Problem here is I haven't seen HS-6 around these parts for a looong time. I have been using Titegroup to achieve similar end results, but HS-6 is more flexible.

And once again, we are diverted from the topic at hand. None of this has anything to do with the statement you made and I refuted. Once again, we can't discuss published Hodgdon data without it getting personal. I don't understand it.



Dick, #26 is 23yrs old. Did you even consider that things might have changed in that time? Did you think I was making it up?

Wolftrap was wrong and he chose the way he responded to the correction, not me or anyone else. He didn't have to get defensive but he did. I don't see anything personal in response. His misinformation was handled as well as could be expected. Funny how you guys respect the blunt truth from folks like Taffin, Murbach or Jurras but can't tolerate it from anyone else.

An unnecessary dig at Glenn? Wasn't that after he referred to me as an "internet expert" and put me on his ignore list? Not to even mention the exchanges on SA.com. Which all started with his defending rude behavior with some of his own. Glenn didn't "need" to bring that baggage from there to here but he did. You guys in "the clique" are all the same. You see everyone else's faults but your own.



And in fine style, pot, meet kettle. That's a nice personal dig thrown in for good measure.

And once again, we are diverted from the topic at hand. None of this has anything to do with the statement you made and I refuted. Once again, we can't discuss published Hodgdon data without it getting personal. I don't understand it.



Dick, #26 is 23yrs old. Did you even consider that things might have changed in that time? Did you think I was making it up?

Wolftrap was wrong and he chose the way he responded to the correction, not me or anyone else. He didn't have to get defensive but he did. I don't see anything personal in response. His misinformation was handled as well as could be expected. Funny how you guys respect the blunt truth from folks like Taffin, Murbach or Jurras but can't tolerate it from anyone else.

An unnecessary dig at Glenn? Wasn't that after he referred to me as an "internet expert" and put me on his ignore list? Not to even mention the exchanges on SA.com. Which all started with his defending rude behavior with some of his own. Glenn didn't "need" to bring that baggage from there to here but he did. You guys in "the clique" are all the same. You see everyone else's faults but your own.



And in fine style, pot, meet kettle. That's a nice personal dig thrown in for good measure.

My local store keeps HS-6 in stock, but now they've quit stocking H110 and W296.

My apologies to Hayden. We can normally stay on topic.

Till we get to talking about magnum primers anyway....

I saw some HS-6 about a year or so ago. Should have got some to try. I love my H110 loads though, and Titegroup is awesome also. Guess I'll pick up some of the HS-6 next time and try it. Isn't it about the same as Titegroup though for the lighter loads?? Titegroup and H110 pop up here on a regular basis now, so that's why I've gone with them. Think I only saw the HS-6 one time.

HS-6 falls in between Titegroup and H110 in burn speed, as does performance. You can a little more velocity than TG at similar pressures, but it also takes about 40% more of it per load to do so. I believe it is more forgiving than TG on the pressure curve.

Hmmmm..... That's interesting enough for me to give it a shot. I wouldn't mind needing to use a little more powder in my light loads. Kinda been concerned about how little it takes of the Titegroup in a larger case to get the light loads. Just seems like a LOT of air space when it only takes 9 grains in a 45 Colt case. Don't get me wrong-- I like the results I get as far as accuracy, and there really isn't any recoil to that load. It'd just be nice to have a little more powder than air in a case!

Guess that means I don't get a steak!

Dick

Dick - I'll sponsor your steak dinner for the same offer...

As for the HS-6, 12.5 gr under a 300 WFN gets me 1158 fps

Love the HS-6 for the 45 and 475 for a milder pop on the shooter, not the game.

Guess I don't get to have an actual discussion with open minded people about published loading data without being insulted. The strain is more than some can bear.

Since apparently you can't be bothered with looking it up. Here's pics and a link for those who don't know how to zoom. Show me where the .45 outperforms the .44 with heavier bullets:
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/Hodgdon%2045b_1.jpg
.45 data:



.44 data:
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/Hodgdon%2044b.jpg

I studied the above links and:

the "hottest load" for the .44 magnum shows a 355 gr cast bullet at 1247 fps with 37,900 CUP's.

and

the "hottest load" for the .45 shows a 360 gr cast bullet at 1167 fps with only 29,800 CUP's.

These charts show the .44 as throwing a 355 gr. cast bullet 80 fps faster than the .45 throws a 360 gr. cast bullet. The trade-off is the .44 uses 8,100 more CUP's of pressure.

If you throw the .45 360 gr. cast bullet at the same 37,900 CUP's as the .44 uses, it would blow the .44 away in velocity. As someone has been saying over and over again and in different ways, physics is physics and doesn't change.

So who is "right or wrong" here? Both sides are correct. Until pressure is considered RELEVANT. Then the .45 wins.

Yes, I've read the Linebaugh article too. I asked this same question when I read it. How is that relevant? It's quite the obvious statement but completely irrelevant unless you can run a six shot Ruger .45 at 37,900CUP. Which you can't (or shouldn't). All that matters is the pressure range acceptable for the gun's limitations. The .45 is restricted to 80% the .44's pressure. THAT has not changed and THAT makes all the difference.

The point being that the .45 does not actually run away from the .44Mag until it's chambered in a custom five-shot.

Craig, now I see where you are coming from. Good arguments on both sides.

So now my question: What pressure is max for a Ruger .44m, and why wouldn't it be very similar to the Ruger .45; both use same frames. Is it the small difference in sidewall thickness of the cylinder?

Gregg, I think the stock ruger "theoretically" based on percentages of cylinder wall thickness etc should top out at 32,000. If you run to that, they are basically the same but the 45 does it with less pressure just due to the physics we are discussing. Neither is Bette than the other to me as long as you can hit with it. One is wider and that's about it. One may penetrate better due to slightly higher SD due to same weight slug in smaller diameter but for the stuff we normally shoot animal wise........you will never prove one is better than the ther most likely. Ford and Chevy thing.

PM sent to Glenn.

I agree with Glenn's assessment 100%.

And for the record, I have no need or desire to choose one over the other. I choose both. I own a bunch of both and I love both. I have a Dillon 650 setup for each of them. I don't own a Ford but I do love both my Silverado and my Charger.

IMO this has been an interesting post and I think everybody is now on the same page (sorry Hayden for getting off track but I feel it was necessary to clear up some of the arguments) except for the few unnecessary rude comments.

No worries guys, this has been very interesting 😂😁

I've actually decided to use neither the 230 XTP or the 300 XTP, but the 255 SWC that I've been casting 😁.

As to 44 vs 45.....I guess that's one of those eternal debates isn't it?

Going to sit in a tree stand Thursday morning with just my Blackhawk, very excited!

Good luck to you on Thursday. Remember to take some pics

Without any confirmation by Ruger engineers, I suspect that the 30,000 psi limit (give or take) of the .45 caliber Blackhawk is fairly conservative. Not suggesting anyone tests that theory, but it is just a suspicion of mine.

Good for you! And, good luck.

Yes, good luck to you!

Good luck!

If a .44 magnum is equal to .45 colt w/6 shot cylinder, which I don't disagree with. I own both, Super Blackhawk and 5 1/2" 6 shot .45 colt Blackhawk w/aluminum grip frame. If I was only going to buy one of these guns it would be the .45. It is much lighter and nicer to carry than the Super.