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XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag #176262 12/12/2016 4:47 PM
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geoexchange Offline OP
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Need some help on reloads.

The last two large (300+) hogs I shot with a SRH in 44 Mag. 240gr XTP with 23.5gr H110. I'm guessing 14-1500fps.

Both hogs were one-shot stops. First was a spine shot, second through the heart. Spine shot at less than 20 yards, heart shot at less than 50 yards. In both hogs, the jacket separated from the lead core. The jacket was recovered in the hog, the lead core was not recovered. Spine shot was not through, but down from a tree stand, no visible exit wound. Heart shot pig had a nice big hole on the exit side, I'm assuming from the lead core.

Am I loading too fast or not fast enough? Is it really a problem that the jacket separated (on pigs)? Both were one-shot kills, spine shot obviously dropped instantly, heart shot ran about 50 yards with a destroyed heart.

My first hog kill was about a 200lb hog, relatively same load with Nosler bonded. The bonded did not expand, but was recovered in the hog.

Obviously, the bullet "worked" in all cases, but if I want to hunt larger dangerous game (buffalo, bear, etc.) is it acceptable to stick with my load and the XTP?

I want to go to hard cast eventually, but do I really have a problem with jacket separation, and is it user error???


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: geoexchange] #176263 12/12/2016 5:00 PM
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no, the 240 xtp is in my experience unreliable. you can use the 300xtp but it won't expand much but will be reliable under 1100 or so fps. i would really try the swift aframe. i use the 280gr out of 44 mag. it give reliable expansion, good velocity and i've never had one fail, ever. used the 325gr 454 on cape buffalo and lion. a bit pricier but use the xtps as practice ammo and use the aframe for hunting, comes in 240, 280, and 300 in 44mag bullets.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176264 12/12/2016 5:16 PM
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I have loaded the 300 gr XTP in my 44 Mag Ruger Super Redhawk with 23.5 gr of Win 296....in every situation I've had jacket & core seperation. According to Hornady I'm loading it with 4.5 gr's of too much powder. This is a custom load only for the Redhawk and Super Redhawk. The Swift and Speer bullets would be my choice.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176266 12/12/2016 7:44 PM
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They're not what I would call a premium bullet, but I think the 300 grain unit is a better bullet than the 240. JMHO.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176267 12/12/2016 7:44 PM
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Mark is right - you're using the wrong bullet. I've had a lot of bullet failures with XTP's.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Gary] #176268 12/12/2016 8:13 PM
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Gary......just on hogs?..... Or deer also?


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: KYODE] #176271 12/12/2016 8:37 PM
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Never had any issues with XTP's on deer. No experience on hogs.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Steve in PA] #176274 12/12/2016 9:30 PM
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I love the 240 gr XTP.
even modified some to start expansion sooner but never had jacket separation. I have shot more than 50 BG animals with it and never had jacket separation. Whitetails, Hogs, Red stag, and a few more. Rarely do i recover, but when i do they look beautiful.

Running mine between 1250 and 1350 out of 3 different 44 mag revolvers
my .02

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: SnookNTarpon] #176275 12/12/2016 9:46 PM
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geoexchange Offline OP
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Just on hogs, never shot a deer with the XTP's.

I will switch bullets - use the rest for practice. They're so darn accurate though!!!!


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: geoexchange] #176285 12/13/2016 2:30 AM
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XTP is one of the best bullets I have ever used. If you are having issues with separation go to the 300 on hogs.

I have driven 44 cal 300's as hard as they will run in an Encore Rifle and pistol as well as a Contender. Look at the photos in my bragging board. There is a photo of a 300 gr XTP driven very close to max velocities with near 100% weight retention.

Check it out


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: H2OBUG] #176297 12/13/2016 11:44 AM
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I think they are fine on deer, and some hogs (mature boar with a gristle plate may challenge the integrity of the bullet), but having witnessed what I did in Texas in October, I would rather use a tougher bullet on bigger game like the Swift A-frame -- that is if you really feel the need for expansion. JMHO.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Whitworth] #176298 12/13/2016 1:08 PM
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Compared to most of yall, I'm still a newbie on handgun hunting. Please don't take my questions as smart-A, or "stirring the pot", as they are just genuinely trying to learn from those with more experience than I. Since I started hunting with a handgun, I have used a Ruger 44, with xtp bullets. I haven't managed to find a separated jacket yet. Am I pushing them too slow? The load I'm using is exactly the same as listed in the OP. Obviously I don't have hundreds of kills and I don't get to hunt much of anything bigger than southern whitetail deer.
What would constitute "bullet failure"?
OP stated that both bullets suffered separation, but both animals were recovered in short order.
We know that every animal is a different reaction, but is there a notable difference between time shot/time expired if you were using similar weight 260gr WFN and 240gr xtp? Given roughly the same weight deer, and same high shoulder placement?
One of these days, I'm going to shoot some hogs, and get me a bear with my 44 when schedule allows. I'd like to have a "jack of all trades" load.
The xtp is very accurate, inexpensive, and unless I suffered "placement failure", I have had great success with them dropping deer in very short times, if not drt. I can't blame the bullet for my not putting it in the right place. All that being said, I'm never not open to improving what I can. The xtp seems to get loved or hated, not a lot of middle ground with it.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Boot] #176301 12/13/2016 2:40 PM
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For deer I believe the xtp is a great bullet , does what it's supposed too at a very good cost. Myself it's all I use for deer, but if I ever get chance to go after a elk I would go with a hardcast bullet myself.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Boot] #176302 12/13/2016 2:44 PM
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the xtp is an ok bullet on hogs and a good bullet on deer. problem is that when it gets bigger that's when there's the problems we see.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176310 12/13/2016 5:23 PM
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I think that the XTP'S are good for deer and exotic rams and goats. They are very velocity specific. They are not tough enough to be pushed past their recommended velocity....the exception may be the 400 gr. 475 version. I can easily push it to around 1,800 fps with no problems. Good luck getting that bullet to expand very much in the 475 Linebaugh and you can hang it up in the 480, that round just simply doesn't have the horsepower to make that bullet expand out of a short barreled revolver. I would not recommend them for game larger than Caribou and maybe Elk.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176321 12/13/2016 7:31 PM
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i would agree, franchise, the 400xtp are easily the toughest of the xtp line. i've not seen expansion on any of the game shot with that 400xtp since they're all 480's or 475's. i don't have the monster cannon artillery rounds you do! in those i'd imagine you get some expansion!!!!

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176324 12/13/2016 8:40 PM
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Yes Sir, picture perfect, but expansion starts to only show up reliability at about 1,650 fps


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176336 12/13/2016 11:19 PM
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In a short article I wrote on the terminal performance of Swift versus XTP bullets I finished it by saying "The Swift is a premium, bonded, partition bullet and well worth the money they cost. As you can see in the photos the expansion and weight retention are consistent and almost perfect. The XTP`s gave higher velocities with extremes at weight loss. While the XTP is not in the same class as the Swift it must be remembered that these bullets were taken from dead animals so they worked when placed in the right spot."


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: jamesfromjersey] #176350 12/14/2016 2:38 AM
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I'm surprised the 300 gr. XTP's are failing, Lynn Thompson used them with great success in Australia on a whole bunch of Buffalo & large hogs. From the looks of his video it looked like he was getting pass through's on many of the shots.
I've taken one elk with the 270 gr. Gold Dot (Deep Curl) with no problems. Those of you using heavy jacketed slugs had any luck with it? I would think more guys would like that bullet.

Dick

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: sixshot] #176352 12/14/2016 2:49 AM
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Lynn Thompson was using factory ammo which is grossly under loaded. When you pull that same 300 gr XTP out to the bottom cannelure and add 4.5 more grains of powder, you can significantly increase the velocity, but then you've reached a level that the XTP can't handle.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176353 12/14/2016 3:15 AM
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Yup. The xtps all work well when in their proper range. Unfortunately its not always what they claim and franchise is very right. Matt graham clearly told me that those bullets never opened and were essentially solids.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176356 12/14/2016 4:05 AM
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I am launching 250gr XTP bullets out of my .460 S&W at 2,400 fps with rather devastating effects on deer. Impact velocities a little less than that. They expand almost flat, but the internal damage is rather catastrophic and the bullets have held together.

On the same token, I am launching 240gr XTP bullets out of my .430 SJS at a muzzle velocity up to 2,400 fps as well and it's decidedly finishing pigs. The only recovered bullet was flat but held together. The rest have exited with nice large holes.

My .445 Super Mag pushes the 240gr XTP at 1,700 fps and shattered the on side shoulder bone of a doe. Actually embedding a large chunk of bone in the lead of the bullet. Internal damage was acceptable. This one did separate after penetrating from the quartering to shoulder, through the lungs, and lodging in the liver. Acceptable penetration to me considering the bone it destroyed on impact.

They wouldn't be my first choice for large game. But, I have pushed the XTP in .44 and .45 calibers past the recommended velocity threshold and had good results on deer and hogs.

I'm pleased.

Edit: Looking back at my pictures, I see that one of the deer taken with the .460 S&W resulted in jacket separation of the 250gr XTP. But, this was likely a result of the on side shoulder bone being shattered on impact as with the .445 SM deer. The bullet passed through the quartering towards deer and the separated jacket and core lodged in the hide (breaking the skin) on the off side.

Last edited by Zee; 12/14/2016 4:36 AM.

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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176357 12/14/2016 4:14 AM
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I love running bullets outside their manufacturer recommended velocity thresholds and dispelling myths.

The recommended speeds are more like guidelines, really. Made by people sitting behind a desk looking at computer screens and shooting ballistic gelatin.

Reality starts at the front door.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176360 12/14/2016 6:19 AM
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One huge virtue of the XTP's is that they are available.
I liked the Speer .44 270 gr, but haven't seen any in stock anywhere in years.
I wish Hornady would make this weight and with the double cannelures like the 300gr's.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176361 12/14/2016 8:14 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Zee
I love running bullets outside their manufacturer recommended velocity thresholds and dispelling myths.

The recommended speeds are more like guidelines, really. Made by people sitting behind a desk looking at computer screens and shooting ballistic gelatin.

Reality starts at the front door.


Has it come to that?
You mean we should judge things by actual performance on game?
;\)


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Ernie] #176363 12/14/2016 11:49 AM
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On Boars and Deer I have not had any problem with the 240 Gr. XTP, actually, they are all I shoot out of my 44"s.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176364 12/14/2016 12:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
Yup. The xtps all work well when in their proper range. Unfortunately its not always what they claim and franchise is very right. Matt graham clearly told me that those bullets never opened and were essentially solids.


Matt told me the same thing. They work well because they're "under taxed." I don't think I have ever seen more than 1,000 fps and change every time I've choreographed that load.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Ernie] #176366 12/14/2016 12:41 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
 Originally Posted By: Zee
I love running bullets outside their manufacturer recommended velocity thresholds and dispelling myths.

The recommended speeds are more like guidelines, really. Made by people sitting behind a desk looking at computer screens and shooting ballistic gelatin.

Reality starts at the front door.


Has it come to that?
You mean we should judge things by actual performance on game?
;\)


To make an omelet, ya gotta crack a few eggs.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176369 12/14/2016 2:41 PM
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I dont think anyone has thought you would or wouldnt be able
To kill a deer or hogs. To judge things by actual performance
On game one would need to shoot bigger things to see how xtp's will work on bigger animals. Deer prove nothing bc u can kill them with a wrist rocket.Go take an xtp and push it well beyond its limits and ahoot something big and tough. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesnt but id like to see if you guys would go that route if say u were shooting something dangerous or a 12k sable in africa. Is that really the bullet you would use?

Last edited by tradmark; 12/14/2016 3:11 PM.
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176372 12/14/2016 3:11 PM
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The majority of folks are going to be hunting deer and maybe some hogs.

Bigger animals needing a different bullet...No surprise there!


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Ernie] #176373 12/14/2016 3:18 PM
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and....................it was pretty clear from the outset, criticisms of the xtp were based on how they would perform on larger game. if you never ever shoot larger game it really doesn't matter quite honestly what bullet you use out of any reasonable hunting pistol. i never felt the criticism of the 357 on deer was warranted since theres a plethora of deer killed with them. the point was the 300gr xtp only fail at a really high velocity threshold on big stuff. The OP talked about 300+lb hogs, not deer, not 80lb texas does.

Last edited by tradmark; 12/14/2016 3:19 PM.
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176374 12/14/2016 3:36 PM
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and...........it is no surprise a different bullet is needed but if you look at the recommended game by manufacturers and ammo people, they paint a diff picture. like ammo manufacturers talking about 300gr xtps out of a 460 at laserlike velocities being good for any game that walks. sorry, but untrue......and i think people need to know the good the bad and the ugly and what given bullets will really work on which animals. i helped guide on oryx at a local ranch. i saw lots of bullet failures and lots of successes, i saw quite a few hunters walk off after we had to finish their animal and be somewhat surprised that what worked on deer didn't work here. thankfully we found nearly all the oryx and recovered their animals. that's what these discussions are about, and what the bovine bash was about, bullet testing on big animals.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176375 12/14/2016 3:43 PM
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So prefaced by the fact that I don't shoot 44mag, xtp's or large hogs, but would this discussion of suitability of the bullet change if we were talking about the big old tough boars with the nearly bullet proof shield that were discussed a few months ago on the forum?

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: karl] #176376 12/14/2016 4:09 PM
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i would assume so. i know on james boar it had a huuuuuuge gristle plate. the oryx we would shoot would sometimes have thinner hide, some had a hide that would make some cape buff envious. i just relay info and bullet performance results on big things for those that may run and shoot big animals one day. i didn't have internet nor read mags (since i don't trust much that is written in commercial print) and i just floundered on game finding out what worked and what didn't. i've had the dubious distinction of watching expensive animals run off to finally be tracked down and find out how bad certain bullets failed. i've also seen 12K run off into the bush and seen friends watch their hard earned cash run off never to be found again...............all due to conventional wisdom and what is told on forums. i've seen numerous cast failures and seen numerous jacketed failures. worst part is that's where a ph or guide snickers and says "i really don't recommend you hunt these animals with those little toys (referring to pistols)" this portrays our sport poorly. i just called on a moose hunt for my daughter and had a guide in alaska tell me he wouldn't take her with a handgun. seen to many failures per the outfitter. we had a discussion of bullets and types and reliability but he is soured at the idea. that is all this is about. no amount of dead deer answers these questions. the OP was discussing 300+lb hogs, which are in no means in the same league as a 1000lb+ animal. so jacket seperation on the hogs would potentially be catastrophic on dangerous large game. if ya hunt hogs i would assume ya wanna be loaded properly for a giant 500lb+ monster boar? where gary shot his hog at my property we were moving some stands. a hog ran across the road and was nearly as long as the dirt road was wide. just a massive massive boar. should that critter step out, i would suggest knowing the limitations of your equipment. just my opinion. that's why these discussions are fun. thinking about the what-if's.

Last edited by tradmark; 12/14/2016 4:09 PM.
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176377 12/14/2016 5:13 PM
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The recovered bullet on the right is a 41 cal. 210gr Swift a-frame that lost 85 grains after punching one of the thickest gristle shields I`ve encountered on a big boar. I never witnessed a Swift bullet get as mangled as this one did. The guide thought I shot at 100yds but I felt it was more near 80yds from my FA`s with my handload moving the A-frame at 1645fps. The middle bullet is another Swift that missed the shield and is typical of A-frame expansion. A boars shield that`s like 3/4" plywood can really test a handgun bullet....


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Ernie] #176379 12/14/2016 5:42 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
The majority of folks are going to be hunting deer and maybe some hogs.

Bigger animals needing a different bullet...No surprise there!


This.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176380 12/14/2016 6:12 PM
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i agree wholeheartedly, and i will quote that same post......when the thread is about deer.

we need to get a bunch out on a ranch, hunt some big stuff and continue to test what will and won't work on big dangerous game.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176381 12/14/2016 6:14 PM
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The op was about hogs. I rate deer and pigs the same class of bullet.

They are a medium game animal.

The thread wasn't about big or dangerous game, no?


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176382 12/14/2016 6:18 PM
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no, hogs that i see mostly posted here are similiar but tougher than deer, but it tells me that you haven't shot really big hogs, which can show up at any time when hog hunting, if you had you would not consider them the same class as deer at all. a 300lb hog is much much bigger tougher critter than any deer. by far. and..........most claimed 300lb hogs are really lucky to break 200lbs, if that, and most 400lb hogs are lucky to break 250lbs at best. down in hondo we had one shot that was so big that it had to be brought in by a front end loader. 4x's the size of any other hog killed. not the same as deer at all. this you should know.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: geoexchange] #176383 12/14/2016 6:18 PM
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 Originally Posted By: geoexchange
Obviously, the bullet "worked" in all cases, but if I want to hunt larger dangerous game (buffalo, bear, etc.) is it acceptable to stick with my load and the XTP?


From the OP.....


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

BIG IRON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6aXjMH5C30

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s

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