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10mm Cape Buffalo #177200 01/09/2017 2:33 AM
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Ryan 500L Offline OP
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I was looking through a CZ catalog today and seen a picture of a guy with a Cape Buffalo he took with a Dan Wesson 10mm, the guy has my respect for doing that talk about a stunt! I couldn't believe it

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177201 01/09/2017 3:07 AM
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Why is it a stunt? A 10mm wouldn't be my first choice, just because I prefer bigger hammers, but as long as you have the right bullets (much more important than caliber), and your placement is good, what's the issue? If you have a bullet that will stay together and track straight and deep, a dead bovine will ensue.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177202 01/09/2017 3:29 AM
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borders on insanity to me, but whatever. I guess if it works use it. I sure wouldn't

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177203 01/09/2017 3:32 AM
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also said he had a special permit so CZ probably spent a lot of money on the deal so he could use a Dan Wesson product and they don't produce a .500 JRH!

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177204 01/09/2017 3:37 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Ryan 500L
also said he had a special permit so CZ probably spent a lot of money on the deal so he could use a Dan Wesson product and they don't produce a .500 JRH!


You need a special permit to hunt in Zimbabwe with a handgun unless it's a private concession, irrespective of caliber. Where was this hunt?

Again, not my first choice as I'm not a real semi-auto fan with regards to hunting, but if the right bullet is used and the shooter can place his/her shots, a dead bovine will result.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177207 01/09/2017 4:37 AM
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So, lemme ask you ryan, what caliber wouldnt be a stunt? Would a 458 lott? Would a 454? Its all in the bullets guys. The ph i shot mine with took a shot with the 458 lott. Bullet came apart and it penetrated less than a foot. My EXPANDABLE 325gr aframe thru the shoulders and the buff was down with one shot. Now i would argue that razor dobbs shooting a gun that would penetrate to the offside shoulders reliably is less of a stunt than an "appropriate" safari caliber with crummy bullets!

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: tradmark] #177212 01/09/2017 2:42 PM
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I see both side I would not because I know my limitations


Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a 12 pound sledgehammer!
Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Mad Dog 1954] #177234 01/09/2017 10:33 PM
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Whit is correct, a quality bullet in the right place is the most important, plus he said it wouldn't be his first choice.

We all read a few months back about well known guide Phil Shoemaker saving the lives of 2 clients by killing a Brown Bear with his 9mm. It wouldn't have been his first choice but it's what he had at the time & he made it work. I didn't agree with it either but the proof is in the results. Bullet structure & placement trumps horsepower.

Dick

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: sixshot] #177245 01/10/2017 12:36 AM
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I always wondered why Ross Seyfried built a .585 Nyati when his .45 Colt worked? The only reason I can think of is in case of a charge which kinda tells me he wasn't 100% confident in the old 5- shot hammer

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177246 01/10/2017 1:02 AM
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Maybe he hadnt yet shot a charging cape buffalo with over 7k ft/lbs of muzzle energy and seen it have no effect yet? Mark sullivan hadnt had his
Videos come out yet.

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177247 01/10/2017 1:03 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Ryan 500L
I always wondered why Ross Seyfried built a .585 Nyati when his .45 Colt worked? The only reason I can think of is in case of a charge which kinda tells me he wasn't 100% confident in the old 5- shot hammer


He was in the magazine industry and he moved on to the next thing. He had and has absolute confidence in the .45 Colt for Cape buffalo. Keep in mind in '86 when he wrote that piece, he did that hunt without backup. His .45 Colt was a Seville with an oversized six-shot cylinder. He still has it and won't let go of it. He also used a .475 Linebaugh in Australia with great success as he moved on to the next thing.

The only thing that is a 100% charge stopper is a CNS hit, irrespective of what you are shooting.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177250 01/10/2017 1:09 AM
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I don't believe Ross or Larry Kelly would have ever went after dangerous game with a 10mm, just my 2 cents

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177251 01/10/2017 1:26 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Ryan 500L
I don't believe Ross or Larry Kelly would have ever went after dangerous game with a 10mm, just my 2 cents


Keep in mind, Ryan, that bullet technology has evolved dramatically since Larry Kelly passed and since Ross stopped hunting with a handgun for editorial. Ross even used a jacketed solid (Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer if memory serves) that he cut down and tweaked to feed his .475 with knowing there was a better solution for big dangerous game than hard cast bullets that can be compromised if pushed to fast. However, he had problems with bullets pulling but sometimes he shot first with that solid. So bullet technology played a role in bigger and bigger calibers being developed. Look at the various Nitro Express cartridges. When they were in their infancy, jacketed bullets were crap (in a word), and the obvious solution was to throw bigger and bigger bullets at game to make up for the bullet shortcomings. Keep in mind that the rifle DG hunters are just recently beginning to embrace the concept of the flat-nosed solid when handgun guys have been using them for decades. So, things don't always move so fast and bullet technology over that last decade, decade and a half has been remarkable.

I would rather use a 10mm with a proper solid that I know won't distort and that will penetrate straight and deep than a bigger hammer like a .500 Smith & Wesson with a lousy round-nosed solid. Guess which one will be more effective on a big bovine.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177252 01/10/2017 1:38 AM
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Alright! Who hacked Whitworth's username!?! Anybody? Huh?

He's defending a micro caliber!!!!

:snif:

Brings a tear to my eye. Really.



"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177253 01/10/2017 1:40 AM
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This is really kind of nuts...what's next 10mm for Elephant...just saying...WOW..yeah, to each his own, but I could never in good conscience recommend a 10mm for anything over 300 pounds, irregardless of bullet type. It's still a 10mm. I know that you too, would never go Cape Buffalo hunting with a 10mm.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177254 01/10/2017 1:42 AM
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A 10mm is not even in the same league as a 45 Colt or a 475 Linebaugh


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177256 01/10/2017 1:48 AM
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Not being a smartass but i would. If i was being sponsored i would do it in a heartbeat. Is there a better choice, yup. And if i wasnt being sponsored i wouldnuae something else. 😄 Its a smaller bullet but i can unload the clip in a few seconds very accurately at 25-30 yards. Thats alot of
Lead. I can also reload quick as well.

As far as new bullet technology goes. I need to load a pic of a lehigh solid from a 357. Pretty impressive

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: tradmark] #177258 01/10/2017 1:52 AM
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I'm going to use the new Lehigh Extreme Penetrator Bullet from a 500 S&W encore barrel on the Forum hunt in March, but 😂 it's not a Cape Buffalo. I'm down for bullet testing, but a 10mm is not what I'm going Buffalo hunting with 😉


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177267 01/10/2017 2:08 AM
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Haha. I totally understand. Wheres the forum hunt? Whatcha gonna shoot.

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: tradmark] #177271 01/10/2017 2:25 AM
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Salt Creek Hunting Preserve. Going after a big feral boar. Hopefully, I will get some good video and pictures of what kind of damage the Lehigh bullets will do.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Zee] #177274 01/10/2017 3:13 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Zee
Alright! Who hacked Whitworth's username!?! Anybody? Huh?

He's defending a micro caliber!!!!

:snif:

Brings a tear to my eye. Really.



No, I'm defending the concept of quality, effective bullets. A good bullet in a smaller caliber trumps a lousy one in a big caliber.

David, keep in mind that us revolver guys are dealing with really limited velocity potential. The 10mm is no different in that it is not capable of high velocities and really is just a .40 caliber handgun round that can sling fairly heavy-for-caliber bullets at moderate velocities, just like many of the revolvers we use for big game. We don't have long barrels, closed breaches and bottle-neck, high-capacity cases, so we are already at a handicap as far as paper ballistics are concerned.

Now, I will say it again. I like big calibers (loaded properly is the caveat I always use), as they make big holes and leave bigger impressions typically on big game. However, unlike many, I can actually shoot the heavy recoilers fairly well, but it is because I practice a lot with these big guns -- a lot. Most folks don't give this thing we do the time it requires to get competent. For those folks and some who are simply not as recoil tolerant, there are smaller calibers that if loaded properly (there goes that caveat again), are quite effective on big-game. But, first things first, you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at, then, have a bullet that will stay together, track straight, and go deep. A dead animal will then ensue.

Even a lowly .40 caliber will make a hole that smaller, acceptable rifle calibers would love to be able to make.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177275 01/10/2017 3:28 AM
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I absolutely understand. There are just so many better revolver and semi auto rounds that out class the 10mm for hunting larger game than deer...44 Mag, 445 Super Mag, 440 Corbon, 45 Win Mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh, 50 AE, 500 WE, 500 JRH, 500 Linebaugh, and the 500 S&W. I'm really not trying to knock Razor, I just think that there are much better choices. That is if one can handle the recoil and place the bullet in the kill zone.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177276 01/10/2017 3:45 AM
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Thats the big if. Always is. I know very very few that can truly hit with the biggies.

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Ryan 500L] #177277 01/10/2017 3:49 AM
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Ryan. I suggest you research Razor Dobbs and see the variety of game he has taken with the 10mm. I am not defending his choice of a 10mm for dangerous game but I will say he has probably bagged more big game with a 10mm auto than anyone else. That seems to be his objective. I assume he does so in a scientific manner with the correct bullet and much preparation. I remember reading articles back in the 70s and 80s when hunting any dangerous game with any handgun was considered an ill advised stunt. Thanks to guys like Larry Kelly, JD Jones, Doc Rogers, Mark Hampton and others this has been properly addressed. There were folks that questioned Henry Ford and Lindbergh too.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: tradmark] #177278 01/10/2017 3:53 AM
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440 corbon eh? Hadnt shot one of those in a long long time

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: tradmark] #177279 01/10/2017 4:03 AM
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He does it, without a doubt, because he is paid to by CZ and Dan Wesson to do it. When the legends were doing it, they were using superior rounds...no question about that. Does anyone really think that JD Jones or Doc Rogers would go after Cape Buffalo with a 10mm?? Really?? The 10mm is not a new round and neither are cast bullets..Seriously, good for Razor, that is one hell of an accomplishment, my hat is off to him. I just don't think the 10mm is Big Five material 😉


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177280 01/10/2017 4:19 AM
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I think the point is that a skilled and prepared handgunner with a properly placed shot with the correct bullet will do the job. Again, I am not recommending the 10mm either but the point Max is making is that a big gun alone does not assure success. I personally prefer to hunt with heavy calibers. I do not own a 357 or a 10mm hunting gun. My current preferred deer gun is a 460 S&W x frame as I like a big hole all the way through!


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177281 01/10/2017 4:20 AM
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Let's put this into perspective. Handgun Hunting gets a bad rap for not being able to adequately put down large game. We know that this is false, but look at how many countries do not allow the use of handguns for hunting. I just have a bad feeling that the use of the 10mm for large, dangerous game is not doing the handgun hunter any favors (lost & wounded game) with that being said, congratulations to the man or woman that can put down a Cape Buffalo with the 10mm


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: billa] #177282 01/10/2017 4:26 AM
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You know that dissension mentioned in the other thread?

Yeah.

The dude is a flamboyant long haired goofball. But, damn if he didn't do it. Good for him. I home he continues having success with his 10mm until something bigger and badder eats him with a smile.

Heck, I just started using the 10mm this year because well.......I don't have one and it was something new. Ya know, it worked on medium game to no surprise.

I really don't see what the fuss is about. Some don't think it's a good choice. Ok. One buff might argue that if he could. Some don't recommend using it on buff. Ok. Don't.

Cut the dude some slack. He used it. It worked. This time. And it will continue to work. Until it doesn't. And he might die. So what. His choice.

Just like everyone has.

Stop pissing in every bowl of cherios that doesn't taste right to you.

(Spoken to whomever it applies and I ain't pointing fingers. I'm talking to everyone tha downs another for their choice of gun, carrridge, bullet, method, and style. Give it a freaking REST! Same team, dammit!!!)

I love you all. As you were.

:-)


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Zee] #177283 01/10/2017 4:38 AM
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Shoot what you want, where you want, how you want, with whatever you want.

If it's legal.......go with God, my son.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Zee] #177284 01/10/2017 4:39 AM
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This is good for us 😂 this type of discussion/debate makes us all think, research, and test or guns and bullets. We are all grown and should be able to emotionally handle a little discussion 😂 without these nice 😉 discussions we wouldn't have bullet or gun improvements 👍


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177286 01/10/2017 4:49 AM
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"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Zee] #177287 01/10/2017 7:22 AM
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The responsibility to make good hits & clean kills lies with the shooter, if he can't handle the gun/recoil then he needs to go to something smaller or wind his loads down. You can't kill what you can't hit & this might sound like a broken record but a shot in the dirt doesn't impress any animal, whether it's a lion, a cape buffalo or a ground hog.
You have control over what you shoot, if your buddy is shooting a big gun & you can't handle the recoil you've got to make some changes. Very few of us would choose a 10mm for cape buffalo or a 9mm for brown bear but accuracy & penetration can make up for a lot of wasted horsepower.Which is worse being over gunned & missing or being under gunned & placing your hits?

Dick

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: sixshot] #177292 01/10/2017 10:48 AM
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a few hunter got the stuffing knocked out of em trying to follow W.D.M. Bell and use a 7mm on elephants. 10mm obviously works for cape buffalo. it may not be best for most of us.

the real problem is that you have a bunch of executives at cz that play golf instead of shoot. so they dream up this idea....now every sidewalk commando will have to have a CZ 10mm. if it can do that to a buff imagine how bad ill be a the mall. 10mm sales must have been sliding.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: bluecow] #177293 01/10/2017 11:03 AM
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CONGRATS RAZOR!!!!!!!!! Enough said.

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Franchise] #177294 01/10/2017 12:19 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
He does it, without a doubt, because he is paid to by CZ and Dan Wesson to do it. When the legends were doing it, they were using superior rounds...no question about that. Does anyone really think that JD Jones or Doc Rogers would go after Cape Buffalo with a 10mm?? Really?? The 10mm is not a new round and neither are cast bullets..Seriously, good for Razor, that is one hell of an accomplishment, my hat is off to him. I just don't think the 10mm is Big Five material 😉


All of the pioneers at some point experienced technical problems that were rampant during their eras. Larry Kelley, for example, had to shoot a brown bear six times with his .44 Mag at point blank range and it was his guide that ultimately killed the bear with a .375 H&H. Larry was loaded up with 240 grain jacketed hollow-points and he experienced total bullet failure, that changed his direction in thinking to heavy (300 grain) hardcast bullets. He had more "horsepower" than Razor Dobbs, but the bullet quality and construction and design just wasn't there yet. Ross Seyfried was completely unimpressed with the .44 Magnum in Africa on a variety of game, using the bullet technology of the time, because those bullets didn't deliver on the promise.

Jack Huntington shot a big bovine in the shoulder with his .450 No. 2 NE double rifle loaded with 500 grain round-nose Woodleigh solids and the bullet made a hard right turn upon entering the shoulder, and it stayed on the on-side of the animal -- a complete failure, despite considerably higher horsepower levels than any of the handgun rounds we are discussing here.

All bullet failures. Not issues with the firearms, the calibers, placement, velocity, etc., etc., etc. A caliber/revolver/load combination is only as good as its bullet.

The Barnes Tripple Shock made many calibers that would have been considered inadequate in the past, viable alternatives to more abusive and harder-kicking rounds. It is all about the bullets.


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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Whitworth] #177297 01/10/2017 2:24 PM
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No thanks! Just no suitable heavy bullets. If there were, not enough case capacity to drive them. The heaviest of 10mm loads is about equivalent to the Keith .44Spl load, except smaller. I wouldn't shoot a Cape buff with either one.

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Craig44] #177299 01/10/2017 2:42 PM
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Obviously there are, as they penetrated to the offside hide. How much heavier should they be?

Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: tradmark] #177300 01/10/2017 3:26 PM
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dont get me wrong, i don't think it'd be the best choice for me for cape buff, but i could obviously get it done, just as razor did. and franchise, i can't wait to see what that big lehigh does on game. we want pics!!!!

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Re: 10mm Cape Buffalo [Re: Craig44] #177301 01/10/2017 3:33 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44
No thanks! Just no suitable heavy bullets.


Sure there are. Double Tap, Cast Performance, Rimrock all make quality, heavy, flat-nosed hardcast bullets for the 10mm. Ted Nugent used 230 grain DT ammo on a Cape buffalo a number of years ago and I don't remember seeing a big flap on the internet about it. Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly Cartridge, Double Tap all make quality heavy loads for the 10mm. Plus, LeHigh and CEB both make mono-metal solids for the caliber that would penetrate straight and deep without distorting.

Keep in mind that Lynn Thompson used woefully under-powered .44 Mag loads on truckloads of water buffalo in Australia. Why? Great shot placement and ADEQUATE PENETRATION. Now, a guy like Razor Dobbs uses a smaller diameter cartridge, loaded to higher velocity, shooting a bullet with a much better nose profile than an XTP that doesn't open, and sees penetration to the offside hide of the animal. How in God's name is that inadequate?

You don't have to be in one camp or another here. I'm not abandoning what I do and believe, just saying with the right bullet (pay attention here), lesser calibers are "enough."

I'm still not giving my .500s up, but if you pay me enough I'll go slay a dragon with a 10mm.


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