I didn't pass judgement, I just said I wouldn't do it.

Yeah, there are great 220-230gr loads but as I said, the heaviest 10mm loads are only equivalent to the Keith .44Spl load. Sorry but I wouldn't shoot a Cape buffalo with a standard weight bullet out of any handgun. I want the biggest friggin' hammer I can hit with.

how about a hammer that keeps it nose profile? i would use a monometal solid that is lighter than a deficient hardcast just based on weight. bullet weight is only one single parameter that can enhance penetration

How is it like the Keith load? Different caliber, different weight-for-caliber, hugely different nose profile. If they both go 1,200 fps then that is the only similarity I can draw between them. I don't understand the correlation.

The velocity is actually in a good range for cast bullets.

Wouldn't a 400 grain bullet of same make and shape and speed plus a larger caliber
penetrate deeper and leave a bigger hole and have a better TKO? because that's what I've been reading from the experts for years and years now

the "experts" have been stuck in 1980's bullet technology. just the fact you bring up tko tells me you need to look a bit deeper. did ya know that brett favre throwing a can of soup has a higher tko than any rifle? it's made up by taylor, who then constantly cites exceptions to the rule in his own book. tko means as much as muzzle energy. where, ryan, do you draw the line? at 44, 45, 475, 500, .510?, .40? where and why. or do you evolve your thinking based on seeing what works and how well it works. handgunning has not progressed much because people subscribe to an ideology and then see what they want, not what is. hell, i used an expandable on a cape buff that did better than many i know of that used big hardcast. one shot and down. shot 2x more for effect, but what else does one need to know. the experts said i shouldn't do it, i did it and have continued to kill large things with what the experts recommend against. makes me wonder who the experts really are. i know half the ones i hear out there touting things against what i've seen haven't got the pile of bodies of animals over 1000lbs i do. once again, makes me wonder why they're experts.

Same weight for caliber and same velocity. Same application. Substitute a same-weight WFN/LFN for the Keith bullet, it doesn't matter. There is no magic that makes the 10mm a better dangerous game load. IMHO, neither qualify. If the 10mm is good for Cape buffalo then why do we even need .44's, .45's, .475's and .500's? All this does is lend credibility to the nut jobs like Dobbs who think the 10mm is the be-all, end-all of handgun performance. I would use the .44Mag but it wouldn't be my first choice either. The 10mm is like sending a toddler to do a man's job.

I would pay to see Brett Favre kill a cape buffalo with a can of Campbell's!!

one thing I know from my experience is a 50 cal. 420gr Punch bullet in the right place will take a Cape buff.....

It does matter. The bullet is everything. If the 10mm is like sending a toddler to do a man's work, I could make the argument that the .44 Mag is also a toddler. Neither are impressive on really big game, but loaded properly they both will do adequately. The only calibers I have used and seen used on big animals that were actually impressive started with a .5.....but I digress.

Seriously guys, I know we all have some preconceived notions and we have our favorites and our least favorites. Try to push that all aside and simply look at the mechanics here. Draw a straight line to the animal's vitals. It your bullet is capable of traveling that straight line and reaching that goal, you have enough, by definition. Again, I'm not rethinking what I do or getting ready to trade my cold steel for plastic, but if paid enough and/or challenged, I would slay dragons with the 10mm -- as long as it is loaded properly (there goes that caveat once again).

One more time: As long as you can put the bullet in the right place, and as long as your chosen bullet will track straight and deep, a dead animal will be the result irrespective of the size of the animal. As long as those conditions are met, any given caliber will succeed in bringing home the bacon, beef, whatever.

yup, james, it sure will and do a fine job of it! problem is the experts would tell ya i was wrong for using what i did. i think the be all end all is not a 10mm for dangerous game but i would suggest proving dobbs wrong as he evidently he is a great shot. prove him wrong.

So would I, but would rather have a properly loaded 10mm!

but whitworth...........the TKO values man!?!?!?!??!?!

Ok, I've just been watching from the side lines, but the football ref was too much. I just ran the TKO numbers on a 108mph fastball (150) vs my 45-70 load (34). Guess I'm going to go polish up my fast pitch and put all pesky guns away.

The world changes, technology and knowledge evolve and improve. It's our job to examine the options, look at the EVIDENCE hold opinion at arm's length and make informed decisions that should change over time as technology and knowledge change. Things that don't change tend to go the way of the dodo.

There have been tremendous strides in bullet development recently, that imho have largely been driven by monometals coupled with supporting technological advances (manufacturing, deform-able materials computer modeling), legal requirements and recognition of the public health dangers of chronic lead exposure.

We have to remember that the Minie ball was developed ~170 years ago, shortly before the 1850s (Roughly 5-6 generations ago) How much adapting and changing do you think your firearm bearing forefathers had to go through between then and now and who are we to think we have reached the end-all be-all pinnacle of firearm development?

Beyond the omnipresent resistance to all things "new", this whole discussion smells a bit like the reasoning that convinced everyone that they needed at least a 30-06 Springfield to shoot a white tail deer at 50 yards.

Anyone want to pitch in a few $ to send Zee a some of the Underwood 10mm Xtreme bullets so he can gather some evidence for the rest of us?

The Exreme Penetrator is a HUGE improvement over HC bullets, just saying, and that's just my opinion. There have been huge advancements in bullets....well, for some bullets 😉😁....and a 10mm HC still isn't the best option for large, dangerous game, but I don't think a 10mm was ever designed to used on dangerous game (rhino, hippo, elephant, and Cape buffalo) It is and was designed for self defense 😜 Did someone use it - yes....did the Buff die - yes......was it the best choice 😂😂😂😂 that's up for debate 😁 that being said...the 10mm is not new 😉

nope, it's not up for debate that it's the best choice, it's not. it's not up for debate that it worked and i have a pic i'll post shortly with the lehigh defense rounds.

John Linebaugh has no idea about hunting handguns the more I read this site, heavy hard cast lead bullets have no place in the hunting field we need light super bullets of small caliber to do the job these days animals are tougher now than they have ever been

yeah ryan, that's what we said,(rolls eyes) but i don't think he is the deity that many do. do i respect him, sure, but do i think what was dogma back in the 80's and early nineties, nope, not a chance. there were also many failures you never ever heard about as well.

here's some other things you may not know. 1) there's rifles that with the right bullet handily out penetrate every pistol in existence. this is not talked about but happens and yes, has done so at linebaugh seminars.
2) john did not match the 500 linebaugh with the most effective bullet in that caliber that allows it to out penetrate the 475, that was done by none other than jack huntington.
3) there's been many failures on cape buff with the vaunted hardcast via linebaugh theory. one used to be up on bowen's website but has been taken down.

none of the hardcast bullets will out penetrate it's punch/monometal counterpart, none will do the damage of a good barnes/swift aframe either. they have their place and aren't ineffective but they cannot be considered the "best" in any arena anymore. and yes i have in fact shot a truckload more large game than john ever did or has or will.

what he preached is effective, but not as much as they should be. it was much more pertinent 30 years ago. if you disagree you will be shunned from certain circles.

in fact, lynn thompson is THE preeminent handgun hunter of dangerous game, he prefers a 454. this flies in the face of the linebaugh seminaristas. lynn has also killed more large african dangerous game than everyone combined at a shootist holiday.

Ryan, I think you are missing the point. I have used heavy hardcast bullets on lots of game up to and including 2,000 bovine. That said, when BIG trophy fees are on the line, I would rather use a solid bullet that I know will maintain its shape even if it hits a concrete wall, like a Punch bullet -- which incidentally is patterned after the LBT LFN.

Prior to this thread, I had never heard of Razor Dobbs (yes, I'm not based in the US) so I did a bit of reading about who he is. Seems like he was mentored into handgun hunting by Ted Nugent, which is also how he came to favour the 10mm. Also seems like the current Cape Buff is actually his second taken with a 10mm, the other was some years ago. I believe Ted has also taken at least one with the 10. So we now have a number of times (admittedly a small number) when a properly placed 10mm was up to the job. Rather than jumping on him I think we should respect the achievement. I think we should also be grateful for the fact that his efforts, and the efforts of others like him, may spur manufacturers to create better semi-auto calibres and establish their place as legitimate hunting tools.

i looked at that dan wesson razor back at dsc. it's a helluva nice pistol. comes setup for hunting loads outta the box and factory adjustable night sights. awesome.

Mark, my man, your honesty is refreshing 😊👍 handgun hunting has come a long way and hopefully will continue too...Thanks Man 😆

I have stayed out of this thread because I consider Razor a friend. No amount of arguing on either side is going to sway the other side. Is the 10mm the best choice for a cape buffalo? No. Did it work? Absolutely. Let me say this. He didn't go into this venture blind. He worked with double tap and tested the ammo to death before diving in head first. He practices with his 10mm guns far beyond what most hunters would ever dream of doing. He is an extraordinary shot on game with them. He also knew that some would consider it a stunt and that it would stir up controversy which it has. Taking a cape buffalo with a handgun is not for everyone. Taking a cape buffalo with a 10mm is sure enough not for everyone. The facts are the facts. He did it. The gun and ammo worked. No matter how much we argue over it the buffalo are not coming back to life. If you don't want to shoot a buffalo with a 10mm just don't do it. If you do want to do it go for it but be careful not to devour one another in the process.

thank you.

I've found this topic informative and comical for a few reasons:

1. My To-Do List for postseason is working up a new 10mm load in 155 grains. No Buffs will be harmed in the testing of this load!

2. In Alabama one cannot legally hunt with hardcast. Only "Handguns or pistols using centerfire, mushrooming ammunition". Like an idiot I developed a couple sweet loads back during summer before I remembered.

3. Speers are legal in Alabama. Evidently, they are far more lethal than any silly Keith Bullet thingie from some OleTimer.

4. I just find it comical that my Glock 42 .380 with Critical Defense ammo is legal in my state to chase big game.


P

with new bullet technology that .380 might just be the perfect hunting hangun

oh it just may be, funny thing is, if you were accurate enough i would have no doubts you could kill deer with lehigh defense 380 rounds. But......ryan ya might wanna check with your "experts" before trying.

I want to use the new tech ...
I want to use the old tech ...
I don't want to use a Speer ...

LoL

I believe you've missed the points that were being made here. The fact of the matter is that we have come a long way since the "Keith bullet." There are better cast designs. The guy being bashed here, Razor Dobbs, actually used hardcast bullets to take his Cape buffalo -- and if my information is correct, he used Double Tap 230 grain loads which feature a WFN bullet -- from real LBT molds. So, he used what I at least would consider a much better cast design. The point was that better bullets have turned calibers that would have been considered marginal back in the day into viable calibers for big game. It's pretty simple, really, but the topic seems to be so sacred that it releases emotional responses from grown men.

In your opinion, what is the ultimate gun/caliber/bullet combination for big bovines? You've been critical of Dobbs' choice, so let's hear your opinion on the matter. I'm not being combative, I just want to hear your thoughts considering you've been pretty vocal in your distaste for Dobbs' choice.

In other words, what would you do differently?

Well, dude used Double Tap loads, so I'm not sure the reason behind all the monometal talk. Are you even referring to bullets that actually exist? He's used an LBT that is not even heavy for its caliber. So there are NO revelations here regarding the bullets actually used.

No one is "bashing" Dobbs. I'm pretty sure we can debate his choices without it being considered "bashing". Sure, he did it. We wouldn't hear about it if he didn't. That doesn't make it a good idea. Evel Knievel jumped over 14 Greyhound buses with a Harley but does that mean I'm gonna try it? Lots of elephants have been brained with the 6.5x54MS, does that make it wise to attempt today? Dobbs also killed elk with a 155gr load and I think that's just as absurd. Why? Because I tested the various jacketed bullets out of the .38-40 and anything lighter than 180gr is a joke. Even the 180's are a little light in the loafers for deer. Yeah, the 230gr LBT is a better design than the Keith bullet but it's not 'that' much better. It's not so much better that it makes up for the lack in mass. You're still giving away half your penetration. The point was not to compare the Keith bullet to the LBT. The point was that the bullets are the same weight for their respective calibers and moving at similar velocities. So yes, it is very comparable to using a Keith .44Spl load for the same task. The .41Spl is nearly the same diameter and can heave a 215gr cast bullet at 1200fps out of a Colt SAA without even straining it. I guess it's good too then, huh? What would happen if we started a thread about that?

If you guys feel so strongly about it, you're more than welcome to try it yourself. You'll never convince me that the 10mm is good for anything bigger than deer, even if the bullets are made of depleted uranium. I believe in following an idea to its logical conclusion. If we conclude that the 10mm is good for Cape buffalo, I reckon the .380 is a deer cartridge. Seriously. I have a hard enough time convincing folks that the .38-40 is a halfway decent deer cartridge. Little did I know that I could take my antiquated 1873 Sporting Rifle to take Africa's Big Five!

Seriously, this is absurd.

Or maybe my Colt!

Nope. The issue was bullet technology making calibers that were not viable before, adequate now. Nothing more, nothing less. I was merely pointing out that LBT bullets are an improvement over Keith-style bullets from a terminal performance standpoint -- an example of technological advances in bullets. We can poo poo Razor Dobbs' choice in calibers till the cows come home (when do the cows come home anyhow??), but it doesn't change the fact that Razor Dobbs killed a Cape buffalo with a 10mm loaded with hardcast bullets that had enough oomph (that's a technical term) to penetrate to the offside hide. Again, not my first choice, but it worked and worked well enough not to call this hunt a stunt. How many did it require to put the animal down? I don't know but I have seen bovines soak up a truckload of lead from "acceptable" calibers......

You just wanted to show off that pretty Colt!

There are enough guys here with experience killing stuff to know that using a 10mm on Cape buffalo is not the best idea and I agree with them. Cape buffalo are not bison or some other sort of semi-wild cow. Furthermore, unless I'm missing someone, there are only three of us on this thread that have actually hunted and killed Cape buffalo with a handgun. I won't speak for anyone else who has hunted buffalo but I would NEVER use a 10mm.

Even with a well placed shot these things will soak up a lot of lead. I suppose it depends on where you're hunting but it's not like they are standing around out in the open waiting for you to come by and start shooting. If you're hunting by tracking/stalking, consider yourself damn lucky if you can get within 50 yards and have an opening for a shot. It's usually thick - very thick and you're also unlikely to get a 2nd shot into the animal initially. They are most often in a herd and when the shot goes off there are buffalo running everywhere and you can't tell which one is yours even if you're good enough to hit a running buff with your handgun. I've been within 50 yards of buffalo many times and unable to see the target well enough to take a shot. From my experience the problem is not generally hitting the buffalo it's doing enough damage with the first shot that he doesn't want to run into the next territory and if you thought it was thick or rough country before he was shot, wait until you see where he goes after you've hit him.

In 2015 there were 2 PH's killed by buffalo. For you guys that went on that watusi hunt recently how much shooting did it take to kill them? Now imagine that they want to kill you and that they are 10x tougher than a watusi. Cape buffalo are one big muscle and until you've been up close and personal with one you cannot understand.

I am not disparaging what Razor did with his 10mm. I don't know anything about the hunt or the situation. I'm simply saying I would not have done it with that cartridge.

I think it was a marketing stunt to promote the ''razorback'' Dan Wesson myself and he got away with it. I've never even heard of the guy til this started and since then I've read quite a bit about him some of it good and a lot of it bad. But if I were ever able to buffalo hunt it would be with my .500 Linebaugh with a Buffalo Bore 435 LBT LFN but I would check with the experts first not the legends on here

well said gary, but i would do it without hesitation, and ryan you might wanna check with jack huntington on that 435 gr load, there's a reason he started pushing to get that 525gr load into the 500L. check accuratereloading forum and there's a lack of penetration with that load on mountain lion, but i welcome you to shooting that load on a cape buff if ya want. lemme know when you find it. that 435 is one of the worst performing bullets available for the 500L. but you're right, you might wanna check with those that haven't actually done it first.

as far as the watusi, they drop easily with a well placed bullet that holds its shape, that said it was remarkable how many of the bullets touted by the "experts" didn't hold shape! with those there was a LOT of shooting going on. and by a LOT i mean tons. with those shooting what we've advocated a total of 2 bovines in two shots. i used a bullet the experts said would be the bees knees and it failed, went and finished it with a barnes out of a smaller caliber. and to your point gary, on animals not even remotely as tough as a cape buff, not even remote, and if the bullet fails on them it would be a tragic disaster on cape buff. the 50 cal hardcast perfectly placed as i did on the watusi would've been an unrecovered cape buff! any expert that wouldn't recommend a monometal solid or punch bullet for cape buff out of a 500L should have his expert card revoked.

why does Tim Sundles sell that load if its junk and doesn't work???

i dunno, guess it's traditional. it's one of the first weights and bullets used by linebaugh and it was hamstrung from the start, this is well known.

who exactly are your experts?

oh, and i assume that means you haven't done it? what exactly have you shot ryan?

you guys are having a very good discussion-- you have noticed that here on this forum you are not agreeing on all of this
which ok-
this may have been mentioned (yes I have read all of the thread:)
Ross Sayfred? wrote that the ideal true big game cal was a .475 next a 500-which he stated was really good lion medicine
I would agree with Mr Ross
also I have an old American Handgunner in which a buff was taken by a custom .44 (very ugly by the way)with a 305 JDJ design cast
the picture shows that on the insurance shot from the front,the same bullet turned up the neck toward the shoulder and kept going having never even got in the skin- zero pent. and a ricochet
3 p's proper caliber-( Which is open to debate)-proper shot placement-- proper bullet-- as this is what puts the bite in the bark and makes the recoil hurt something else other than you-- again good discussion

yessir glynn, but understand ross wrote that years ago and he was also experimented with modifying trophy bonded solids due to the limitations of cast. he felt that the 475 was ideal back then.....it would be interesting to see why he felt the need to start moving from the ole cast and going to something else. i wonder why? don't know but i wonder? the 3 p's are the great debate and hopefully done in the good spirit of finding out what's the best.