I was looking through a CZ catalog today and seen a picture of a guy with a Cape Buffalo he took with a Dan Wesson 10mm, the guy has my respect for doing that talk about a stunt! I couldn't believe it

Why is it a stunt? A 10mm wouldn't be my first choice, just because I prefer bigger hammers, but as long as you have the right bullets (much more important than caliber), and your placement is good, what's the issue? If you have a bullet that will stay together and track straight and deep, a dead bovine will ensue.

borders on insanity to me, but whatever. I guess if it works use it. I sure wouldn't

also said he had a special permit so CZ probably spent a lot of money on the deal so he could use a Dan Wesson product and they don't produce a .500 JRH!

You need a special permit to hunt in Zimbabwe with a handgun unless it's a private concession, irrespective of caliber. Where was this hunt?

Again, not my first choice as I'm not a real semi-auto fan with regards to hunting, but if the right bullet is used and the shooter can place his/her shots, a dead bovine will result.

So, lemme ask you ryan, what caliber wouldnt be a stunt? Would a 458 lott? Would a 454? Its all in the bullets guys. The ph i shot mine with took a shot with the 458 lott. Bullet came apart and it penetrated less than a foot. My EXPANDABLE 325gr aframe thru the shoulders and the buff was down with one shot. Now i would argue that razor dobbs shooting a gun that would penetrate to the offside shoulders reliably is less of a stunt than an "appropriate" safari caliber with crummy bullets!

I see both side I would not because I know my limitations

Whit is correct, a quality bullet in the right place is the most important, plus he said it wouldn't be his first choice.

We all read a few months back about well known guide Phil Shoemaker saving the lives of 2 clients by killing a Brown Bear with his 9mm. It wouldn't have been his first choice but it's what he had at the time & he made it work. I didn't agree with it either but the proof is in the results. Bullet structure & placement trumps horsepower.

Dick

I always wondered why Ross Seyfried built a .585 Nyati when his .45 Colt worked? The only reason I can think of is in case of a charge which kinda tells me he wasn't 100% confident in the old 5- shot hammer

Maybe he hadnt yet shot a charging cape buffalo with over 7k ft/lbs of muzzle energy and seen it have no effect yet? Mark sullivan hadnt had his
Videos come out yet.

He was in the magazine industry and he moved on to the next thing. He had and has absolute confidence in the .45 Colt for Cape buffalo. Keep in mind in '86 when he wrote that piece, he did that hunt without backup. His .45 Colt was a Seville with an oversized six-shot cylinder. He still has it and won't let go of it. He also used a .475 Linebaugh in Australia with great success as he moved on to the next thing.

The only thing that is a 100% charge stopper is a CNS hit, irrespective of what you are shooting.

I don't believe Ross or Larry Kelly would have ever went after dangerous game with a 10mm, just my 2 cents

Keep in mind, Ryan, that bullet technology has evolved dramatically since Larry Kelly passed and since Ross stopped hunting with a handgun for editorial. Ross even used a jacketed solid (Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer if memory serves) that he cut down and tweaked to feed his .475 with knowing there was a better solution for big dangerous game than hard cast bullets that can be compromised if pushed to fast. However, he had problems with bullets pulling but sometimes he shot first with that solid. So bullet technology played a role in bigger and bigger calibers being developed. Look at the various Nitro Express cartridges. When they were in their infancy, jacketed bullets were crap (in a word), and the obvious solution was to throw bigger and bigger bullets at game to make up for the bullet shortcomings. Keep in mind that the rifle DG hunters are just recently beginning to embrace the concept of the flat-nosed solid when handgun guys have been using them for decades. So, things don't always move so fast and bullet technology over that last decade, decade and a half has been remarkable.

I would rather use a 10mm with a proper solid that I know won't distort and that will penetrate straight and deep than a bigger hammer like a .500 Smith & Wesson with a lousy round-nosed solid. Guess which one will be more effective on a big bovine.

Alright! Who hacked Whitworth's username!?! Anybody? Huh?

He's defending a micro caliber!!!!

:snif:

Brings a tear to my eye. Really.

This is really kind of nuts...what's next 10mm for Elephant...just saying...WOW..yeah, to each his own, but I could never in good conscience recommend a 10mm for anything over 300 pounds, irregardless of bullet type. It's still a 10mm. I know that you too, would never go Cape Buffalo hunting with a 10mm.

A 10mm is not even in the same league as a 45 Colt or a 475 Linebaugh

Not being a smartass but i would. If i was being sponsored i would do it in a heartbeat. Is there a better choice, yup. And if i wasnt being sponsored i wouldnuae something else. 😄 Its a smaller bullet but i can unload the clip in a few seconds very accurately at 25-30 yards. Thats alot of
Lead. I can also reload quick as well.

As far as new bullet technology goes. I need to load a pic of a lehigh solid from a 357. Pretty impressive

I'm going to use the new Lehigh Extreme Penetrator Bullet from a 500 S&W encore barrel on the Forum hunt in March, but 😂 it's not a Cape Buffalo. I'm down for bullet testing, but a 10mm is not what I'm going Buffalo hunting with 😉

Haha. I totally understand. Wheres the forum hunt? Whatcha gonna shoot.

Salt Creek Hunting Preserve. Going after a big feral boar. Hopefully, I will get some good video and pictures of what kind of damage the Lehigh bullets will do.

No, I'm defending the concept of quality, effective bullets. A good bullet in a smaller caliber trumps a lousy one in a big caliber.

David, keep in mind that us revolver guys are dealing with really limited velocity potential. The 10mm is no different in that it is not capable of high velocities and really is just a .40 caliber handgun round that can sling fairly heavy-for-caliber bullets at moderate velocities, just like many of the revolvers we use for big game. We don't have long barrels, closed breaches and bottle-neck, high-capacity cases, so we are already at a handicap as far as paper ballistics are concerned.

Now, I will say it again. I like big calibers (loaded properly is the caveat I always use), as they make big holes and leave bigger impressions typically on big game. However, unlike many, I can actually shoot the heavy recoilers fairly well, but it is because I practice a lot with these big guns -- a lot. Most folks don't give this thing we do the time it requires to get competent. For those folks and some who are simply not as recoil tolerant, there are smaller calibers that if loaded properly (there goes that caveat again), are quite effective on big-game. But, first things first, you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at, then, have a bullet that will stay together, track straight, and go deep. A dead animal will then ensue.

Even a lowly .40 caliber will make a hole that smaller, acceptable rifle calibers would love to be able to make.

I absolutely understand. There are just so many better revolver and semi auto rounds that out class the 10mm for hunting larger game than deer...44 Mag, 445 Super Mag, 440 Corbon, 45 Win Mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh, 50 AE, 500 WE, 500 JRH, 500 Linebaugh, and the 500 S&W. I'm really not trying to knock Razor, I just think that there are much better choices. That is if one can handle the recoil and place the bullet in the kill zone.

Thats the big if. Always is. I know very very few that can truly hit with the biggies.

Ryan. I suggest you research Razor Dobbs and see the variety of game he has taken with the 10mm. I am not defending his choice of a 10mm for dangerous game but I will say he has probably bagged more big game with a 10mm auto than anyone else. That seems to be his objective. I assume he does so in a scientific manner with the correct bullet and much preparation. I remember reading articles back in the 70s and 80s when hunting any dangerous game with any handgun was considered an ill advised stunt. Thanks to guys like Larry Kelly, JD Jones, Doc Rogers, Mark Hampton and others this has been properly addressed. There were folks that questioned Henry Ford and Lindbergh too.

440 corbon eh? Hadnt shot one of those in a long long time

He does it, without a doubt, because he is paid to by CZ and Dan Wesson to do it. When the legends were doing it, they were using superior rounds...no question about that. Does anyone really think that JD Jones or Doc Rogers would go after Cape Buffalo with a 10mm?? Really?? The 10mm is not a new round and neither are cast bullets..Seriously, good for Razor, that is one hell of an accomplishment, my hat is off to him. I just don't think the 10mm is Big Five material 😉

I think the point is that a skilled and prepared handgunner with a properly placed shot with the correct bullet will do the job. Again, I am not recommending the 10mm either but the point Max is making is that a big gun alone does not assure success. I personally prefer to hunt with heavy calibers. I do not own a 357 or a 10mm hunting gun. My current preferred deer gun is a 460 S&W x frame as I like a big hole all the way through!

Let's put this into perspective. Handgun Hunting gets a bad rap for not being able to adequately put down large game. We know that this is false, but look at how many countries do not allow the use of handguns for hunting. I just have a bad feeling that the use of the 10mm for large, dangerous game is not doing the handgun hunter any favors (lost & wounded game) with that being said, congratulations to the man or woman that can put down a Cape Buffalo with the 10mm

You know that dissension mentioned in the other thread?

Yeah.

The dude is a flamboyant long haired goofball. But, damn if he didn't do it. Good for him. I home he continues having success with his 10mm until something bigger and badder eats him with a smile.

Heck, I just started using the 10mm this year because well.......I don't have one and it was something new. Ya know, it worked on medium game to no surprise.

I really don't see what the fuss is about. Some don't think it's a good choice. Ok. One buff might argue that if he could. Some don't recommend using it on buff. Ok. Don't.

Cut the dude some slack. He used it. It worked. This time. And it will continue to work. Until it doesn't. And he might die. So what. His choice.

Just like everyone has.

Stop pissing in every bowl of cherios that doesn't taste right to you.

(Spoken to whomever it applies and I ain't pointing fingers. I'm talking to everyone tha downs another for their choice of gun, carrridge, bullet, method, and style. Give it a freaking REST! Same team, dammit!!!)

I love you all. As you were.

:-)

Shoot what you want, where you want, how you want, with whatever you want.

If it's legal.......go with God, my son.

This is good for us 😂 this type of discussion/debate makes us all think, research, and test or guns and bullets. We are all grown and should be able to emotionally handle a little discussion 😂 without these nice 😉 discussions we wouldn't have bullet or gun improvements 👍

The responsibility to make good hits & clean kills lies with the shooter, if he can't handle the gun/recoil then he needs to go to something smaller or wind his loads down. You can't kill what you can't hit & this might sound like a broken record but a shot in the dirt doesn't impress any animal, whether it's a lion, a cape buffalo or a ground hog.
You have control over what you shoot, if your buddy is shooting a big gun & you can't handle the recoil you've got to make some changes. Very few of us would choose a 10mm for cape buffalo or a 9mm for brown bear but accuracy & penetration can make up for a lot of wasted horsepower.Which is worse being over gunned & missing or being under gunned & placing your hits?

Dick

a few hunter got the stuffing knocked out of em trying to follow W.D.M. Bell and use a 7mm on elephants. 10mm obviously works for cape buffalo. it may not be best for most of us.

the real problem is that you have a bunch of executives at cz that play golf instead of shoot. so they dream up this idea....now every sidewalk commando will have to have a CZ 10mm. if it can do that to a buff imagine how bad ill be a the mall. 10mm sales must have been sliding.

CONGRATS RAZOR!!!!!!!!! Enough said.

All of the pioneers at some point experienced technical problems that were rampant during their eras. Larry Kelley, for example, had to shoot a brown bear six times with his .44 Mag at point blank range and it was his guide that ultimately killed the bear with a .375 H&H. Larry was loaded up with 240 grain jacketed hollow-points and he experienced total bullet failure, that changed his direction in thinking to heavy (300 grain) hardcast bullets. He had more "horsepower" than Razor Dobbs, but the bullet quality and construction and design just wasn't there yet. Ross Seyfried was completely unimpressed with the .44 Magnum in Africa on a variety of game, using the bullet technology of the time, because those bullets didn't deliver on the promise.

Jack Huntington shot a big bovine in the shoulder with his .450 No. 2 NE double rifle loaded with 500 grain round-nose Woodleigh solids and the bullet made a hard right turn upon entering the shoulder, and it stayed on the on-side of the animal -- a complete failure, despite considerably higher horsepower levels than any of the handgun rounds we are discussing here.

All bullet failures. Not issues with the firearms, the calibers, placement, velocity, etc., etc., etc. A caliber/revolver/load combination is only as good as its bullet.

The Barnes Tripple Shock made many calibers that would have been considered inadequate in the past, viable alternatives to more abusive and harder-kicking rounds. It is all about the bullets.

No thanks! Just no suitable heavy bullets. If there were, not enough case capacity to drive them. The heaviest of 10mm loads is about equivalent to the Keith .44Spl load, except smaller. I wouldn't shoot a Cape buff with either one.

Obviously there are, as they penetrated to the offside hide. How much heavier should they be?

dont get me wrong, i don't think it'd be the best choice for me for cape buff, but i could obviously get it done, just as razor did. and franchise, i can't wait to see what that big lehigh does on game. we want pics!!!!

Sure there are. Double Tap, Cast Performance, Rimrock all make quality, heavy, flat-nosed hardcast bullets for the 10mm. Ted Nugent used 230 grain DT ammo on a Cape buffalo a number of years ago and I don't remember seeing a big flap on the internet about it. Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly Cartridge, Double Tap all make quality heavy loads for the 10mm. Plus, LeHigh and CEB both make mono-metal solids for the caliber that would penetrate straight and deep without distorting.

Keep in mind that Lynn Thompson used woefully under-powered .44 Mag loads on truckloads of water buffalo in Australia. Why? Great shot placement and ADEQUATE PENETRATION. Now, a guy like Razor Dobbs uses a smaller diameter cartridge, loaded to higher velocity, shooting a bullet with a much better nose profile than an XTP that doesn't open, and sees penetration to the offside hide of the animal. How in God's name is that inadequate?

You don't have to be in one camp or another here. I'm not abandoning what I do and believe, just saying with the right bullet (pay attention here), lesser calibers are "enough."

I'm still not giving my .500s up, but if you pay me enough I'll go slay a dragon with a 10mm.

I didn't pass judgement, I just said I wouldn't do it.

Yeah, there are great 220-230gr loads but as I said, the heaviest 10mm loads are only equivalent to the Keith .44Spl load. Sorry but I wouldn't shoot a Cape buffalo with a standard weight bullet out of any handgun. I want the biggest friggin' hammer I can hit with.

how about a hammer that keeps it nose profile? i would use a monometal solid that is lighter than a deficient hardcast just based on weight. bullet weight is only one single parameter that can enhance penetration

How is it like the Keith load? Different caliber, different weight-for-caliber, hugely different nose profile. If they both go 1,200 fps then that is the only similarity I can draw between them. I don't understand the correlation.

The velocity is actually in a good range for cast bullets.

Wouldn't a 400 grain bullet of same make and shape and speed plus a larger caliber
penetrate deeper and leave a bigger hole and have a better TKO? because that's what I've been reading from the experts for years and years now

the "experts" have been stuck in 1980's bullet technology. just the fact you bring up tko tells me you need to look a bit deeper. did ya know that brett favre throwing a can of soup has a higher tko than any rifle? it's made up by taylor, who then constantly cites exceptions to the rule in his own book. tko means as much as muzzle energy. where, ryan, do you draw the line? at 44, 45, 475, 500, .510?, .40? where and why. or do you evolve your thinking based on seeing what works and how well it works. handgunning has not progressed much because people subscribe to an ideology and then see what they want, not what is. hell, i used an expandable on a cape buff that did better than many i know of that used big hardcast. one shot and down. shot 2x more for effect, but what else does one need to know. the experts said i shouldn't do it, i did it and have continued to kill large things with what the experts recommend against. makes me wonder who the experts really are. i know half the ones i hear out there touting things against what i've seen haven't got the pile of bodies of animals over 1000lbs i do. once again, makes me wonder why they're experts.

Same weight for caliber and same velocity. Same application. Substitute a same-weight WFN/LFN for the Keith bullet, it doesn't matter. There is no magic that makes the 10mm a better dangerous game load. IMHO, neither qualify. If the 10mm is good for Cape buffalo then why do we even need .44's, .45's, .475's and .500's? All this does is lend credibility to the nut jobs like Dobbs who think the 10mm is the be-all, end-all of handgun performance. I would use the .44Mag but it wouldn't be my first choice either. The 10mm is like sending a toddler to do a man's job.

I would pay to see Brett Favre kill a cape buffalo with a can of Campbell's!!

one thing I know from my experience is a 50 cal. 420gr Punch bullet in the right place will take a Cape buff.....

It does matter. The bullet is everything. If the 10mm is like sending a toddler to do a man's work, I could make the argument that the .44 Mag is also a toddler. Neither are impressive on really big game, but loaded properly they both will do adequately. The only calibers I have used and seen used on big animals that were actually impressive started with a .5.....but I digress.

Seriously guys, I know we all have some preconceived notions and we have our favorites and our least favorites. Try to push that all aside and simply look at the mechanics here. Draw a straight line to the animal's vitals. It your bullet is capable of traveling that straight line and reaching that goal, you have enough, by definition. Again, I'm not rethinking what I do or getting ready to trade my cold steel for plastic, but if paid enough and/or challenged, I would slay dragons with the 10mm -- as long as it is loaded properly (there goes that caveat once again).

One more time: As long as you can put the bullet in the right place, and as long as your chosen bullet will track straight and deep, a dead animal will be the result irrespective of the size of the animal. As long as those conditions are met, any given caliber will succeed in bringing home the bacon, beef, whatever.

yup, james, it sure will and do a fine job of it! problem is the experts would tell ya i was wrong for using what i did. i think the be all end all is not a 10mm for dangerous game but i would suggest proving dobbs wrong as he evidently he is a great shot. prove him wrong.

So would I, but would rather have a properly loaded 10mm!

but whitworth...........the TKO values man!?!?!?!??!?!

Ok, I've just been watching from the side lines, but the football ref was too much. I just ran the TKO numbers on a 108mph fastball (150) vs my 45-70 load (34). Guess I'm going to go polish up my fast pitch and put all pesky guns away.

The world changes, technology and knowledge evolve and improve. It's our job to examine the options, look at the EVIDENCE hold opinion at arm's length and make informed decisions that should change over time as technology and knowledge change. Things that don't change tend to go the way of the dodo.

There have been tremendous strides in bullet development recently, that imho have largely been driven by monometals coupled with supporting technological advances (manufacturing, deform-able materials computer modeling), legal requirements and recognition of the public health dangers of chronic lead exposure.

We have to remember that the Minie ball was developed ~170 years ago, shortly before the 1850s (Roughly 5-6 generations ago) How much adapting and changing do you think your firearm bearing forefathers had to go through between then and now and who are we to think we have reached the end-all be-all pinnacle of firearm development?

Beyond the omnipresent resistance to all things "new", this whole discussion smells a bit like the reasoning that convinced everyone that they needed at least a 30-06 Springfield to shoot a white tail deer at 50 yards.

Anyone want to pitch in a few $ to send Zee a some of the Underwood 10mm Xtreme bullets so he can gather some evidence for the rest of us?

The Exreme Penetrator is a HUGE improvement over HC bullets, just saying, and that's just my opinion. There have been huge advancements in bullets....well, for some bullets 😉😁....and a 10mm HC still isn't the best option for large, dangerous game, but I don't think a 10mm was ever designed to used on dangerous game (rhino, hippo, elephant, and Cape buffalo) It is and was designed for self defense 😜 Did someone use it - yes....did the Buff die - yes......was it the best choice 😂😂😂😂 that's up for debate 😁 that being said...the 10mm is not new 😉

nope, it's not up for debate that it's the best choice, it's not. it's not up for debate that it worked and i have a pic i'll post shortly with the lehigh defense rounds.

John Linebaugh has no idea about hunting handguns the more I read this site, heavy hard cast lead bullets have no place in the hunting field we need light super bullets of small caliber to do the job these days animals are tougher now than they have ever been

yeah ryan, that's what we said,(rolls eyes) but i don't think he is the deity that many do. do i respect him, sure, but do i think what was dogma back in the 80's and early nineties, nope, not a chance. there were also many failures you never ever heard about as well.

here's some other things you may not know. 1) there's rifles that with the right bullet handily out penetrate every pistol in existence. this is not talked about but happens and yes, has done so at linebaugh seminars.
2) john did not match the 500 linebaugh with the most effective bullet in that caliber that allows it to out penetrate the 475, that was done by none other than jack huntington.
3) there's been many failures on cape buff with the vaunted hardcast via linebaugh theory. one used to be up on bowen's website but has been taken down.

none of the hardcast bullets will out penetrate it's punch/monometal counterpart, none will do the damage of a good barnes/swift aframe either. they have their place and aren't ineffective but they cannot be considered the "best" in any arena anymore. and yes i have in fact shot a truckload more large game than john ever did or has or will.

what he preached is effective, but not as much as they should be. it was much more pertinent 30 years ago. if you disagree you will be shunned from certain circles.

in fact, lynn thompson is THE preeminent handgun hunter of dangerous game, he prefers a 454. this flies in the face of the linebaugh seminaristas. lynn has also killed more large african dangerous game than everyone combined at a shootist holiday.

Ryan, I think you are missing the point. I have used heavy hardcast bullets on lots of game up to and including 2,000 bovine. That said, when BIG trophy fees are on the line, I would rather use a solid bullet that I know will maintain its shape even if it hits a concrete wall, like a Punch bullet -- which incidentally is patterned after the LBT LFN.

Prior to this thread, I had never heard of Razor Dobbs (yes, I'm not based in the US) so I did a bit of reading about who he is. Seems like he was mentored into handgun hunting by Ted Nugent, which is also how he came to favour the 10mm. Also seems like the current Cape Buff is actually his second taken with a 10mm, the other was some years ago. I believe Ted has also taken at least one with the 10. So we now have a number of times (admittedly a small number) when a properly placed 10mm was up to the job. Rather than jumping on him I think we should respect the achievement. I think we should also be grateful for the fact that his efforts, and the efforts of others like him, may spur manufacturers to create better semi-auto calibres and establish their place as legitimate hunting tools.

i looked at that dan wesson razor back at dsc. it's a helluva nice pistol. comes setup for hunting loads outta the box and factory adjustable night sights. awesome.

Mark, my man, your honesty is refreshing 😊👍 handgun hunting has come a long way and hopefully will continue too...Thanks Man 😆

I have stayed out of this thread because I consider Razor a friend. No amount of arguing on either side is going to sway the other side. Is the 10mm the best choice for a cape buffalo? No. Did it work? Absolutely. Let me say this. He didn't go into this venture blind. He worked with double tap and tested the ammo to death before diving in head first. He practices with his 10mm guns far beyond what most hunters would ever dream of doing. He is an extraordinary shot on game with them. He also knew that some would consider it a stunt and that it would stir up controversy which it has. Taking a cape buffalo with a handgun is not for everyone. Taking a cape buffalo with a 10mm is sure enough not for everyone. The facts are the facts. He did it. The gun and ammo worked. No matter how much we argue over it the buffalo are not coming back to life. If you don't want to shoot a buffalo with a 10mm just don't do it. If you do want to do it go for it but be careful not to devour one another in the process.

thank you.

I've found this topic informative and comical for a few reasons:

1. My To-Do List for postseason is working up a new 10mm load in 155 grains. No Buffs will be harmed in the testing of this load!

2. In Alabama one cannot legally hunt with hardcast. Only "Handguns or pistols using centerfire, mushrooming ammunition". Like an idiot I developed a couple sweet loads back during summer before I remembered.

3. Speers are legal in Alabama. Evidently, they are far more lethal than any silly Keith Bullet thingie from some OleTimer.

4. I just find it comical that my Glock 42 .380 with Critical Defense ammo is legal in my state to chase big game.


P

with new bullet technology that .380 might just be the perfect hunting hangun

oh it just may be, funny thing is, if you were accurate enough i would have no doubts you could kill deer with lehigh defense 380 rounds. But......ryan ya might wanna check with your "experts" before trying.

I want to use the new tech ...
I want to use the old tech ...
I don't want to use a Speer ...

LoL

I believe you've missed the points that were being made here. The fact of the matter is that we have come a long way since the "Keith bullet." There are better cast designs. The guy being bashed here, Razor Dobbs, actually used hardcast bullets to take his Cape buffalo -- and if my information is correct, he used Double Tap 230 grain loads which feature a WFN bullet -- from real LBT molds. So, he used what I at least would consider a much better cast design. The point was that better bullets have turned calibers that would have been considered marginal back in the day into viable calibers for big game. It's pretty simple, really, but the topic seems to be so sacred that it releases emotional responses from grown men.

In your opinion, what is the ultimate gun/caliber/bullet combination for big bovines? You've been critical of Dobbs' choice, so let's hear your opinion on the matter. I'm not being combative, I just want to hear your thoughts considering you've been pretty vocal in your distaste for Dobbs' choice.

In other words, what would you do differently?

Well, dude used Double Tap loads, so I'm not sure the reason behind all the monometal talk. Are you even referring to bullets that actually exist? He's used an LBT that is not even heavy for its caliber. So there are NO revelations here regarding the bullets actually used.

No one is "bashing" Dobbs. I'm pretty sure we can debate his choices without it being considered "bashing". Sure, he did it. We wouldn't hear about it if he didn't. That doesn't make it a good idea. Evel Knievel jumped over 14 Greyhound buses with a Harley but does that mean I'm gonna try it? Lots of elephants have been brained with the 6.5x54MS, does that make it wise to attempt today? Dobbs also killed elk with a 155gr load and I think that's just as absurd. Why? Because I tested the various jacketed bullets out of the .38-40 and anything lighter than 180gr is a joke. Even the 180's are a little light in the loafers for deer. Yeah, the 230gr LBT is a better design than the Keith bullet but it's not 'that' much better. It's not so much better that it makes up for the lack in mass. You're still giving away half your penetration. The point was not to compare the Keith bullet to the LBT. The point was that the bullets are the same weight for their respective calibers and moving at similar velocities. So yes, it is very comparable to using a Keith .44Spl load for the same task. The .41Spl is nearly the same diameter and can heave a 215gr cast bullet at 1200fps out of a Colt SAA without even straining it. I guess it's good too then, huh? What would happen if we started a thread about that?

If you guys feel so strongly about it, you're more than welcome to try it yourself. You'll never convince me that the 10mm is good for anything bigger than deer, even if the bullets are made of depleted uranium. I believe in following an idea to its logical conclusion. If we conclude that the 10mm is good for Cape buffalo, I reckon the .380 is a deer cartridge. Seriously. I have a hard enough time convincing folks that the .38-40 is a halfway decent deer cartridge. Little did I know that I could take my antiquated 1873 Sporting Rifle to take Africa's Big Five!

Seriously, this is absurd.

Or maybe my Colt!

Nope. The issue was bullet technology making calibers that were not viable before, adequate now. Nothing more, nothing less. I was merely pointing out that LBT bullets are an improvement over Keith-style bullets from a terminal performance standpoint -- an example of technological advances in bullets. We can poo poo Razor Dobbs' choice in calibers till the cows come home (when do the cows come home anyhow??), but it doesn't change the fact that Razor Dobbs killed a Cape buffalo with a 10mm loaded with hardcast bullets that had enough oomph (that's a technical term) to penetrate to the offside hide. Again, not my first choice, but it worked and worked well enough not to call this hunt a stunt. How many did it require to put the animal down? I don't know but I have seen bovines soak up a truckload of lead from "acceptable" calibers......

You just wanted to show off that pretty Colt!

There are enough guys here with experience killing stuff to know that using a 10mm on Cape buffalo is not the best idea and I agree with them. Cape buffalo are not bison or some other sort of semi-wild cow. Furthermore, unless I'm missing someone, there are only three of us on this thread that have actually hunted and killed Cape buffalo with a handgun. I won't speak for anyone else who has hunted buffalo but I would NEVER use a 10mm.

Even with a well placed shot these things will soak up a lot of lead. I suppose it depends on where you're hunting but it's not like they are standing around out in the open waiting for you to come by and start shooting. If you're hunting by tracking/stalking, consider yourself damn lucky if you can get within 50 yards and have an opening for a shot. It's usually thick - very thick and you're also unlikely to get a 2nd shot into the animal initially. They are most often in a herd and when the shot goes off there are buffalo running everywhere and you can't tell which one is yours even if you're good enough to hit a running buff with your handgun. I've been within 50 yards of buffalo many times and unable to see the target well enough to take a shot. From my experience the problem is not generally hitting the buffalo it's doing enough damage with the first shot that he doesn't want to run into the next territory and if you thought it was thick or rough country before he was shot, wait until you see where he goes after you've hit him.

In 2015 there were 2 PH's killed by buffalo. For you guys that went on that watusi hunt recently how much shooting did it take to kill them? Now imagine that they want to kill you and that they are 10x tougher than a watusi. Cape buffalo are one big muscle and until you've been up close and personal with one you cannot understand.

I am not disparaging what Razor did with his 10mm. I don't know anything about the hunt or the situation. I'm simply saying I would not have done it with that cartridge.

I think it was a marketing stunt to promote the ''razorback'' Dan Wesson myself and he got away with it. I've never even heard of the guy til this started and since then I've read quite a bit about him some of it good and a lot of it bad. But if I were ever able to buffalo hunt it would be with my .500 Linebaugh with a Buffalo Bore 435 LBT LFN but I would check with the experts first not the legends on here

well said gary, but i would do it without hesitation, and ryan you might wanna check with jack huntington on that 435 gr load, there's a reason he started pushing to get that 525gr load into the 500L. check accuratereloading forum and there's a lack of penetration with that load on mountain lion, but i welcome you to shooting that load on a cape buff if ya want. lemme know when you find it. that 435 is one of the worst performing bullets available for the 500L. but you're right, you might wanna check with those that haven't actually done it first.

as far as the watusi, they drop easily with a well placed bullet that holds its shape, that said it was remarkable how many of the bullets touted by the "experts" didn't hold shape! with those there was a LOT of shooting going on. and by a LOT i mean tons. with those shooting what we've advocated a total of 2 bovines in two shots. i used a bullet the experts said would be the bees knees and it failed, went and finished it with a barnes out of a smaller caliber. and to your point gary, on animals not even remotely as tough as a cape buff, not even remote, and if the bullet fails on them it would be a tragic disaster on cape buff. the 50 cal hardcast perfectly placed as i did on the watusi would've been an unrecovered cape buff! any expert that wouldn't recommend a monometal solid or punch bullet for cape buff out of a 500L should have his expert card revoked.

why does Tim Sundles sell that load if its junk and doesn't work???

i dunno, guess it's traditional. it's one of the first weights and bullets used by linebaugh and it was hamstrung from the start, this is well known.

who exactly are your experts?

oh, and i assume that means you haven't done it? what exactly have you shot ryan?

you guys are having a very good discussion-- you have noticed that here on this forum you are not agreeing on all of this
which ok-
this may have been mentioned (yes I have read all of the thread:)
Ross Sayfred? wrote that the ideal true big game cal was a .475 next a 500-which he stated was really good lion medicine
I would agree with Mr Ross
also I have an old American Handgunner in which a buff was taken by a custom .44 (very ugly by the way)with a 305 JDJ design cast
the picture shows that on the insurance shot from the front,the same bullet turned up the neck toward the shoulder and kept going having never even got in the skin- zero pent. and a ricochet
3 p's proper caliber-( Which is open to debate)-proper shot placement-- proper bullet-- as this is what puts the bite in the bark and makes the recoil hurt something else other than you-- again good discussion

yessir glynn, but understand ross wrote that years ago and he was also experimented with modifying trophy bonded solids due to the limitations of cast. he felt that the 475 was ideal back then.....it would be interesting to see why he felt the need to start moving from the ole cast and going to something else. i wonder why? don't know but i wonder? the 3 p's are the great debate and hopefully done in the good spirit of finding out what's the best.

That shot was directed at me, wasn't it? Gary, there are a number of us who have shot bovines in the 1,400 to 2,000-lb category, and I think our opinions are credible enough to weigh in on this discussion. The fact is that Razor Dobbs was actually shooting the lighter 200 grain hardcast load and required one shot to bring down the first Cape buffalo. And then used two shots (same load) for the second. Obviously how you hunt them will also dictate how the animal reacts. Razor took both animals from a blind and evidently they were unaware. Three of my four water buffalo were alert to my intentions when I approached on the ground -- the way I like hunting them, not from a distance with a scope. In two years and on two separate occasions I saw Watusi get aggressive with humans. That is a pretty high percentage of aggressive animals. If the Cape buffalo is truly such a tough animal to hunt and so dangerous (I realize this comment will seem heretical to some here), how many times have you been charged? Case in point, one of these "semi-wild" cows as you so disdainfully refer to Watusis as, actually came for me at spitting distance and I had to put it down with an iron-sighted revolver. Not a Cape buffalo definitely, but I would rather deal with a dust cloud and retreating Cape buffalo than even a Jersey milk cow hellbent on my demise.

Now in the spirit of disclosure, how many Cape buffalo have you all shot, and how many water buffalo? What other bovines? Bison, yak, etc.?

You know, I don't think they make Cape buffalo this big.....

haven't done what? I never claimed to be a world known hunter that hangs out with other world known hunters, I just enjoy shooting and hunting with revolvers when I can, hogs, deer that's about all we got around where I live and I'm not rich so I can't go other places to do just that. John Linebaugh and Jack Huntington I've talked with at gun shows and on the phone and they've both done work for me and I listen to them and I told them what loads I was using and for the guns they built me and what they were for and neither one them said a negative thing about it, and that load has worked everytime so if its great to shoot a cape buffalo with a .40 caliber 230 grain hardcast lead bullet at 1150fps why wouldn't a 500 Linebaugh work?? baffles me

As far as killing a lion goes, they are pussy cats and don't take much more than a deer or black bear with a good shot. Cape buffalo is an entirely different matter. Now if you have a month to try and get into the perfect position to shoot a buff at 30 yards then by all means go for it. If you get lucky and get into perfect position in 7-10 days go for it but if you're looking at that bull in the thick stuff and aren't even sure where the shoulder is then you better be very careful with your next move.

No it wasn't directed at you but I watched the videos recently and you'll not likely get the same opportunity with a group of dugga boys. I honestly don't think Cape buffalo charge very often at the initial shot. It's on the follow up that they get very dangerous. The PH that I hunt with has been charged a couple times in the past two years by buffalo and had to stop them with a shot to the brain. Water buffalo can be equally dangerous and are also large. I was part of a large bovine (longhorn) hunt a couple years ago and it took a couple shots with my 475 to end the festivities (I wasn't the shooter but my gun was used.) Not taking anything away from anyone's experiences, I stated in the first sentence that there were enough guys with experience killing stuff to have a pretty good opinion on a 10mm. It's not something I would entertain at all for Cape or water buffalo. If someone wants to by all means have at it.

2 Yak Bulls and 1 Water Buffalo...2 Nilgai Blue Bulls, I know they're not a bovine, but they can take one hell of a thumpin'

sorry, ryan, but that is why i asked. who do you talk to that, they themselves, or yourself, have actually successfully hunted cape buffalo? it's kinda like training for a fight and training with a guy that has just point fought and had a bit of sparring experience.........or do ya listen to who has been in the ring. not trying to be a jerk, just wondering what angle you're viewing this thru.

Reminds me when after running to put a finish shot in my blesbok at around 30yds I jerked the trigger on my 454 and the bullet hit the dirt 10 ft in front of me when the PH said "I think you missed"....
...............a small bullet in the right place is better then a miss with a big one.....another page from the book of "Experience"

I always like these posts & most guys stay pretty civil although very few change their mind about what works & what is a proper load to take really big game with. Gotta love it!
I can't weigh in about anything bigger than elk & moose & African plains game but when you get into animals that size I do know they can take a lot of punishment most times. Sometimes I've seen them go down like they were hit with a bazooka! I assume every reply on here is directed at handguns only, it seems like sometimes so of them might be referring to rifles!
Just my opinion but those that know me will know I always use cast & I don't believe there is enough difference to really matter over a "good" cast bullet & the best jacketed solid out there in a handgun....not rifle! I've killed too many elk with cast to think differently. I know cape buffalo are bigger than elk or moose but cast, made properly will work, especially if a 40 caliber can do it....I think!
And a lot of those buffalo Lynn killed in Australia were killed with a 44 magnum using 300 gr. XTP's.

Dick

Dick, Your a wizard when it comes to making good cast bullets....
you cast bullet son of a gun.........................

i assume you're in the proper bullet camp. just needs to be good! you've got plenty of experience on game. you need to try the dangerous biggies though. it's just toooooooo much fun!

I'm no expert by a long shot. But I wouldn't hunt cape buff with a 10mm any sooner than I would use a .30-30 rifle on cape buff. It obviously can be done but....

I killed that behemoth of a water buffalo with a .450 Marlin after extensive bullet and load testing. It was 2500 lbs worth. Got charged twice and narrowly escaped having to shoot the two that charged. There was a doctor there when I killed it that had killed 5 cape buffalo and 3 water buffalo. He took quite and interest in the autopsy. He said he had never seen a cape buffalo close to the size of this critter. The load basically duplicated the power of a .500 S&W or right at 3000 ft lbs. I chased the devils for 4 hours before I ever got a good shot opportunity. They were wilder than deer. When I finally got a shot it was trotting at 50 yards. The bullet broke the onside front leg bone and penetrated through the lungs into the offside shoulder breaking it and stopping the beast. They said they had never seen anyone take one shot and dump one. I put a safety shot in it but it wasn't needed. I left a .416 Rigby that was my back up gun behind that with its +p loads was making 7000ftlbs. Would it have done anything that the .450 didn't do? Fact is if you can put a bullet through the stuff that makes it live its going to die.
To put this in perspective the horns are 27" wide. We measured it with the leg extended as if standing. This thing was 6' tall at the shoulder.

what kinda bullet did you use? that's a healthy beast there. very impressive!

Beautiful Water Buff...I've always thought so....

Nice animal!

Thanks fellers. These are the actual bullets from the buff. The first one is the one that broke the leg and shoulder. The second was an insurance shot. the un-fired bullet shows what it started as. A 420gr Crater Lite.

By bringing a rifle in I didn't mean to jump topics. I was simply making a point. Fact is it worked. I didn't feel under-gunned on either charge.

that`s a BIG boy for sure.....

No doubt!! Very nice!

Peter Hathaway Capstick writes about using a spear to take a cape buffalo. if those are my options i'll take the 10mm or maybe stay home. i'mtoo old fat and slow for that crap. col. d wesson use a 357 on elk-130 yrds, moose-100yrds, and grizzly-135 yrds. i dont think many of us would say today that 357 is medicine for grizzly.... nor 10mm for cape buff. not slamming anyone. some people can shoot under 4" at a 1000 yards with the right rifle, most couldn't hit a flock of box cars at 1000 yards.

Whitworth let me make tell you that having been raised on a small farm where we did every thing by hand ( like it was the bleeping 1860's not the 1960's) jersey milk cows are the most miserable, conniving, evil minded animals on the face of Gods green earth. especially if you dont de-horn em " cause they look soooo natural with their horns." a good clout with a half full milk bucket between the eyes will keep em at bay though.

lighten up guys

Colonel Doug Wesson`s big game hunting with the 357 Magnum, if used as a basis of judgement of the handgun as a hunting weapon, leaves nothing to be desired in the way of performance. And as bluecow says above "not many of us would say today that the 357 is medicine for grizzly" or for most of the game Col.Wesson took....
However, he knew his game and where to hit them and had full faith in his weapon of choice and how to shoot it.....Know your gun...know your game....and any limitations that follow.

Well said, James!

Haha! I was exaggerating to make my point, however, Watusi ain't milking cows! At least not the ones we've killed. Bovine in general are cantankerous and not to be trusted!

tradmark, I know what you mean. When animals get that big they just seem to be almost bullet proof. Even though I didn't hunt them in Africa I talked with the PH's & seeing you guys here on the different forums that have shot the bigger, nasty stuff I know it's a different ball game. Would be fun to tangle with one up close & personal. If I had my choice it would be hippo's on land, not in the water, I would prefer a fair fight. Wouldn't give a nickel to shoot one in the water. Congrats to all of you who have hunted the really big stuff.

Dick

I love it!

"Lighten up, Francis." Sgt. Hulka

Its all fun and i genuinely envy those of you that have got to run through the mountains and chase muley's, elk, and moose. Each has its draw but ill tell ya africa has its own draw. However, i must admit running thru texas with nothing between you and a bovine that wants to stomp you, except your revolver is just as exciting here as africa!!! In fact, here theres no ph with an express rifle to cover your butt. If ya ever wanna do it here, lemme know and i will set it up. Bring some of those wicked bullets you make and lets do it. I can set it up if youre ever interested! Lemme know

Lived in Texas for 4 years in Sherman. Our first 2 kids were born there & we loved it. Got to hunt around Brownwood several times because an old farmer that felt sorry for a poor GI took me to his lease, just like heaven!
Went back in 07-08 of for the winter at Fredricksburg/Bandera for the winter & did feral hogs with the knife & my om 41 shorty then out to west Texas to a Dr. friend where I got 2 javelina with the om 41 shorty. Also go to hunt between Sonorra & Del Rio once & got a nice white tail that I have mounted. Quite a side story to that hunt where I finished off another buck without a gun.

Dick

i would love to hear it!

We've strayed off the topic of 10mm for buffalo but that's ok it's been a good discussion. I did watch a video recently and the PH was of the opinion that only about 5 of 100 buffalo will charge after being wounded. He made a very good point in my opinion it's the buffalo that is mortally wounded but not dead yet that is the most dangerous and prone to charge. Buffalo wounded but not fatally hit nearly always retreat to fight another day. I have little doubt that this has been his experience in 30+ years of hunting buffalo.

the lions, those were different. they don't have to be shot to wanna come atcha! the buffalo hunts were fun but i truly wouldn't put them on the level of the lion for danger, but i was thinking last night about this and i would be alot more nervous on a lion with a 10mm despite it being a much smaller animal than i would a buffalo. i may be the only one but....i want the result on the lion gary got when he hit it with that 454.

I have question about a responses that hasn't been brought up yet (may be for good reason, but I don't know). I know there was lot of discussion about making sure your first shot is on target, but what about fast second (or third and fourth) shots on target? Is that on peoples minds when they make caliber choices? I am always conscious of the lack of a quick follow up shot with a single shot pistol and definitely pass on shots for that reason.

IMHO one of the advantages of a lower recoil round/platform (with demonstrated adequate performance) is lack of muzzle rise and reduced time to bring the sight back on target should a second shot be needed. In a charge situation, I think this would be of considerable benefit where a CNS is the only way to guarantee an instant drop. Is this a reasonable question or am I dragging up lots of baggage and stirring the pot?

Shooting large recoil weapons is one thing, but it is different from putting 2 or 3 shots on target as quickly and accurately as possible. Some might say this is this one of the things where in the heat of the moment you don't remember/notice, but the physics of the situation with the muzzle rise is not going to change.

karl, I have never worried about quick follow-up shots. Your first shot is going to be the best shot you'll get -- and in many cases, the only shot. Due to this fact -- I have never felt handicapped by using a single-shot handgun. This is just one man's humble viewpoint.

Lions and buffalo are amazingly quick and it has been my experience that you don't get an opportunity for a quick follow up shot with a handgun. Sometimes you don't with a rifle either. Here is the thing about buffalo, unless you find one that is a single animal, you damn sure don't want to hit your buff on the first shot and then wound another one in the fusillade that follows with "quick" follow up shots. Like someone once said, "if your first shot on a buffalo isn't fatal then the next 27 with a big-bore rifle will have little effect". That's obviously an exaggeration but I think everyone gets the point.

Well your first mistake was thinking you could trust anything from Jersey! No offense James.

My view as well. My Daddy taught me early on to make the 1st one count.

X2

Agree on that first shot because it will be/should be a quality shot, especially on dangerous game. Plus the PH should be ready to starting pounding lead if anything goes wrong with that first shot. I think it's pretty much standard practice for the PH to start shooting if the animal doesn't go down, I know it was when I hunted there.
I also agree that a big cat that's wounded would be very scary, whether you were following up with a 10mm or a grenade! The lions I've been around are scary fast!

Dick

The lions just seem more prone to
Know youre there and are just flat out aggressive. I also agree with the first shot being the one to count. Dont count on getting a second unless its a lion. The ph will have u shoot until it doesnt twitch at all. To me it was amazing how much more serious everyone got when it came to the lion vs the buff. They werent clowning around with either but the lion was just a different level imho

I doubt I'll ever get to go to Africa. Chasing mountain lions, bears, deer, and elk are the love of my life. But for me, I've never wanted to do it with anything less than a 45 Colt, until now.

The 10mm bug has recently bitten me pretty hard, and I just might go after lions, bear, and deer with it, but it hasn't bitten me hard enough to make me wanna go chase polar bears with it. Perhaps it can be done, but it isn't gonna be done by this middle aged, overweight, slow runnin white boy!! For elk and anything larger, I'll stick with the 45 Colt.