FA PREACHED THAT BULLETS HAD TO BE HARD AND/OR HEAVY JACKETED TO WITHSTAND THE 454's PRESSURES AS THE BULLET JUMPED FROM CYLINDER INTO THE BARREL THROAT, THAT IS WHY THEY MADE THEM HARD, NOT NECESSARILY FOR TERMINAL PERFORMANCE PURPOSES. I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY WERE INTENDED TO EXPAND BUT THEY COULD DEFORM SOME, OR WORSE, BREAK UP. YEARS AGO I GOT SOME OF THE EARLY SWIFT 300gr .452 A-FRAME BULLETS BUT SEEMED TO HAVE PRESSURE PROBLEMS WITH THEM IN FULL HOUSE LOADS. LATER, SWIFT HARDENED THE LEAD CORE IN THOSE BULLETS. I QUIT USING THE OLDER ONES, AND HAVE NOT TRIED THE NEWER HARDER CORE ONES, AS I BASICALLY DECIDED THAT BULLET INTEGRITY WAS THE WAY TO GO, e.g. CORBON PENETRATORS, THEN THE PUNCH BULLET, THEN THE BARNES BUSTER, AND SOME OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT TRIED. WHAT MAY USUALLY WORK ON WHITETAILS AND FERAL HOGS MAY NOT NECESSARILY WORK ON THE BIG STUFF, BUT WHAT WORKS ON THE BIG STUFF SHOULD USUALLY WORK ON WHITETAILS. etc., ESPECIALLY WITH SHOULDER SHOTS.

SINCE FOR A LONG TIME I WAS A FREQUENT VISITOR TO AFRICA, AND HUNTING BIG AND DANGEROUS GAME, I DECIDED ON BULLET INTEGRITY AND SHOULDER SHOTS (AS ZEE WOULD SAY: PUT 'EM IN STRUCTURE) AND TRAINED AND TRAINED TO INSTINCTIVELY COME UP THE FRONT LEG AND TRY TO DEAD CENTER THE SHOULDER. THIS HAS SERVED ME WELL FOR MANY YEARS AND I THINK I WILL STICK WITH IT.

45Man, please don't take this as me being confrontational as I know little to nothing about the bullets you mentioned, but do you favor them in that order? Corbon, then punch, then Barnes.

Just curious as it is the first time I've ever heard anyone say they prefer anything over punch bullets. Just don't want to put words in your mouth if that isn't what you meant.

Thanks!!

RAPTORTRAPPER: MY RECITATION OF BULLETS WAS A CHRONOLOGICAL LISTING, NOT A PREFERENCE LISTING. CORBON USED TO MAKE A 320gr RN .452 PENETRATOR (I KILLED MY FIRST CAPE BUFFALO WITH THIS BULLET IN ZIMBABWE IN 1993) BUT I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE PENETRATION, SO I GOT PETER PI @ CORBON TO MAKE ME SOME FP PENETRATORS @ 305grs. EVERY BATCH HAD A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT MEPLAT WIDTH BUT THEY ALL SHOT WELL AND WORKED WELL (I SHOT MY SECOND CAPE WITH 1 OF THESE IN MOZAMBIQUE IN 2001), UNTIL THE LAST BATCH, WHICH HAD A WAY TOO WIDE MEPLAT, WHICH IMPEDED PENETRATION, AND WHICH PROBABLY COST ME AN ELEPHANT AND DID COST ME A CAPE BUFFALO IN 2003. THE NEXT (AND LAST TIME) I WENT TO AFRICA (IN 2009) I USED THE PUNCH BULLET, WITH WHICH I TOOK MY 3rd CAPE BUFFALO.


IMHO, THE ABSOLUTE BEST BIG GAME/DANGEROUS GAME "FAILSAFE" BULLET IS THE PUNCH BULLET. IF IT IS BULLET INTEGRITY YOU WANT, WITH A DECENT WEIGHT TO LENGTH RATIO, AND AN APPROPRIATELY WIDE MEPLAT, GET SOME PUNCH BULLETS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT CORBON NOW USES THE BARNES BUSTER IN ITS PENETRATOR ROUNDS. I SHOT A 6 FOOT BLACK BEAR WITH THE BARNES A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. DEAD CENTER THRU THE SHOULDERS, HE WENT DOWN AND THEN GOT UP AND MADE A SHORT DEATH RUN. ONLY ANIMAL I HAVE SHOT AT WITH THE BARNES BUSTER.

Awesome!! Thank you for that!

Whit,

Years ago when I ordered my FA .454 I also bought several boxes of their lead nose bullets.

I used them on two bull elk (one went down on first shot, one took two, different shot angles) I basically was satisfied with that bullet but didn't think it could walk on water.

When WapitiRod built my .475 (BTW I miss him) I developed a load with 400 grain XTP mags and consequently killed two bull elk and four mule deer bucks. Again I was satisfied and maybe I do think this bullet is special.

By being a member here for years I have learned a lot from others and probably would not have chosen the XTP for Cape Buff. As others have posted here, we are all learning here. I have even seen you, Whit, going to jacketed bullets and using scopes!

Thank you to Mr. Hunt for shedding "new" light on the XTP and CONGRATULATIONS once again!

And the learning goes on...

Gregg, I use expanding bullets in limited applications as I have always. I still prefer a solid for the really big critters. Scopes I still don?t really get along with but only in limited applications. Have one on the .444 as I anticipate shots past 100 yards or else a red dot would be sitting up top. But yes, I have evolved over the years.

Hopefully we all do. This forum can be used to sharpen us or tear us all down.

I think in hunting we all evolve, it's just a part of the process. As you shoot more game you change your mind as to what you like or dislike.
We don't always shoot really big animals or animals that are really close so we not only change bullets but we change sighting set ups like scopes, red dots or irons to suit the needs, that's just part of the progression.
I've always said, that's why they make chocolate & vanilla, so we have a choice.
You might say a premium (XXX size) animal requires a premium bullet while deer size game can pretty much be taken with about any well placed bullet within reason. That comes from experience.

Dick

👍👍👍

WITH EXPANDING BULLETS "YOU NEVER KNOW", e.g. I JUST SAW A 2009 PICTURE/POST OF A BIG ELAND SHOT WITH A BFR 500 S&W USING 350gr XTP's. THE HUNTER COMMENTED THAT IT TOOK HIM 4 SHOTS TO PUT HIM DOWN AND THAT THE XTP's WERE A POOR CHOICE OF BULLETS FOR THE ELAND.

Where did he hit the eland? What organs were damaged? How far were the shots? What was the impact velocity?

We?re there pictures of the recovered bullets?

Without details and data, we have speculation and here say.

Sorry. I?m into details. I do not trust assumptions.

Nothing personal.

ALL I KNOW IS WHAT THE HUNTER HIMSELF SAID, i.e. THAT THE XTP's WERE A POOR CHOICE OF BULLETS. OBVIOUSLY HE WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR PERFORMANCE, WHILE OTHERS HAVE BEEN PLEASED WITH XTP's ON LARGE ANIMALS.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I love that line! I have degrees in biology and chemistry. I couldn't agree more!

PistolHNTR POSTED THE PHOTO ON 9/11/08 UNDER THE TITLE OF "ELAND", AND HE SAID, AND I AM QUOTING HIM: "the xtp,s were not a good bullet choice" (HIS WORDS NOT MINE). THE PHOTO AND POSTS CAN BE ACCESSED THRU THE BRAGGING BOARD FORUM. BTW, AN OUTSTANDING ELAND AND A GREAT PHOTO.

PistolHNTR: IF YOU ARE STILL OUT THERE CAN YOU PROVIDE MORE INFO RE WHY YOU THOUGHT THE XTP's WERE NOT A GOOD BULLET CHOICE?

I?m going to guess someone didn?t hit it in the ticker....bigger bullets, other bullets, don?t make up for bad shot placement. We need hand grenades!

I wasn?t there....just a guess....an educated one....

Congratulations to Mr. Hunt on two beautiful Cape buffalo. Most folks only dream of such things and you got two!

That said, I would never use XTP's on dangerous game. Seen too many failures of different sorts. XTP's are among the cheapest jacketed bullets, while good bullets are cheap insurance on what may be a many thousand dollar hunt. For an expanding bullet, give me a bonded Speer at the absolute minimum. From what I know right now, the A-frame would be my first choice for an expanding bullet. Although the Punch is my first choice overall. The Barnes Buster second, due to the smaller meplat. A good hardcast third. This is not an emotional decision for me in the least and I don't know why so many cling so obstinately to the old tech XTP.

A dangerous game bullet should NEVER, EVER do this:

Was that bullet recovered from a dead animal?

Someone I know recently took a bison with one shot using a
50 caliber 350gr XTP...

Go figure...

DICK: BIG LEAD BULLETS, AT THE RIGHT SPEED, CAN BE DEPENDABLE PENETRATORS AND KILLERS, AND HOLD TOGETHER. I THINK WE NEED A TOPIC ON APPROPRIATE SPEEDS TO GET BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION WITH LEAD BULLETS.

Rey, Sounds good cause I remember reading things like "your pushing it to fast"......there are a lot of variables with cast bullets and for a new shooter this may be enough to go to jacketed.
A good explaination is in order and I`am NOT the one to give...

With any jacketed or cast bullet you are always going to have parameters, some are narrow & some offer a little more latitude but it's always going to be there trust me.
It's only when you get to the full blown solids that you take away the velocity factor & that's really what we've been discussing here for the last few days & it's been one of the very best topics we've ever talked about.
We know that about any jacketed or cast bullet can fail or succeed depending on 2 main factors, placement & velocity, the last one would also include penetration. If you get those you will declare that bullet a good one. It's almost always when we drive a bullet too fast that we get bullet failure. Seldom do we lose an animal because the bullet was going too slow.
Switching back to the premium solids plus 1-2 others it's almost impossible to drive a solid beyond it's capacity to work in a sixgun/fivegun. That's been proven for many years now & also recently with some the "up close & personal" tests done in Texas on some very large Bovines.
When you get into animals that big a "good" jacketed or a "good" cast can work if you don't over drive it but there's the kicker, most times it's either too much speed or in the case of cast bullets, the bullet is too hard, not too soft, too hard & it breaks apart because of overdrive.
Of the 25 elk that I've taken 13 were taken with handguns, I've also taken 1 bull moose, several bears, some African plains game & probably triple digits on deer, lion, antelope, etc. Almost all were with cast, not hard cast & not fast loads with a few exceptions. One bear with a MV of about 1600 fps & 1 elk at about 1500 fps MV, everything else in the 1200-1300 range with complete pass throughs. Most were double lung if possible, some were through both shoulders, 3 deer were length ways.
This is what I know for a fact because I did it over 50 years.
Once you get to the megatron animals I firmly believe they require more attention because from what I've watched & heard over the years they become almost bullet proof, regardless of bullet structure or placement. They have so much oxygen in their blood stream & so much mass that killing them takes time & time can be a killer on either end. Choose your bullets wisely.....

Dick

well spoke sixshot

When you ask about cast bullet velocities, you have to be very specific on the application and bullet hardness.[ or lack of] My simple rule over the years has been cast bullets 1100-1300 fps and drive jacketed bullets to the top speeds the manufacture list. These are where my parameters start. Next you have to match specific applications. Sure gives me a lot of reason to reload!

I think someone had a similar idea to this in the first post at the top of page 10 of this thread. Seems like a GREAT IDEA!!
I'd be interested for sure!!

I believe that I remember you shot a deer with the 400 grain XTP in 475 and the bullet did not exit nor did it expand. A 400 grain .475 should exit a deer from any angle.

John, isn't that the amazing thing about bullets! On paper we always get instant feed back, good group or bad group but on game it takes a long time really to truly trust a bullet to work every time we drop the hammer & think we have good shot placement.
These 2 Cape Buffalo that Mr. Hunt shot has all of us in an up roar in a good way. They both worked all almost all of us would have bet the farm against it.
My friends Fallow doe with a hard 260 gr. Fa bullet from his FA 454 that didn't even exit. Max's 400 gr. XTP that didn't exit on a deer, they could both make that shot again & shoot through those same animals length ways with ease the next time around, go figure.
That's what makes it interesting & frustrating at the same time, we just can't duplicate or explain what happened. You just can't make this stuff up yet we share it to gain experience & I enjoy reading it.
I have learned, and I'm stubborn, that those big heavy solids are the very best if you are hunting megatron's. I don't include moose or the big bears in that group myself, just my opinion. I totally believe my cast bullets would handle any bear out there but I wouldn't over drive them or run them extremely hard (BHN)
I think a hard (BHN) bullet at close range would be trouble.

Dick

That wasn't me. It was James' deer. Just reported on what I saw happen. The ratio of what works to what doesn't is what interests me the most and when I can narrow the margin of error down to an almost insignificant level of failure, I think we are onto a really good bullet.

Max, my mistake, I thought it was a deer you had shot. Anyway, that's a strange result with that big bullet.
What bullet are you referring to?

Dick

I was going to offer to test the 400gr .475 XTP in SIMTEST but it appears to be discontinued.

Here's a bullet testing result that was printed in the October 2000 issue of The Sixgunner

Thanks Franchise for posting this. Good stuff if ok'd by JD and coming from Bob Baker (Freedom Arms).

However I doubt this info is acceptable to a certain ? here with a letter name.

You would be incorrect. Pretty much all the information is there. Except pics of the animal. But, there was at least a relative description. We can assume the Muzzle velocities were the same. Not sure the impact distance on the second bullet as the first was stated. So, we can?t determine the impact velocity of the second bullet.

See? Information isn?t that hard.

LOL..I just posted the picture to show that testing was done on animals and gelatin. It showed us that the .475 XTP is a tough bullet..that's why I showed what recovered bullets look like when you increase their impact velocity by 400 - 500 fps...this version definitely doesn't fall apart

The testing was done in 2000 so nobody should be suprised by any testing done today. This is just what to expect from this version

Based on my only animal shot with the 454 Casull and a Hornady 300 XTP bullet (factory load), I'd say the 300 XTP is a very hard and tough bullet.

(Not that a Hog is a tough brute...)