Must be.

But, my disagreement was with the statement, what it does at the Muzzle it?s going to do anywhere within 100 yards.

You know, the part I put in bold from your quote.

Happy hunting! I know I enjoy mine.

:-)

After your experience with cast bullets on the Longhorn, would you ever use the same bullet/gun combo...that has to be the most times that I've ever heard an animal having to get shot to be killed

I understand that but the question remains. Who wants to trust a bullet that fragments near the muzzle? Do you just walk away from a 50yd shot?

Feel free to share your experience with bullets that fragment at close range but work anywhere under 100yds.



I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

(PS, that was addressed two years ago when it happened)

I know that James has asked you twice during this forum discussion and I've asked you once, what bullet or bullets out of your handguns have failed you? Is it just the one XTP? I questioned your actual in the field handgun experience because you seem to be avoiding that question. You made the comment to Zee that his choices must be a "jacketed" thing, but he put's his animals down quickly, so it seems that he knows what to do and how to do it already..so I think that answers your question

1) I do.
2) Yes I have. I often prefer to shoot game at further distance or within the velocity threshold of the bullet.
3) A-Max/SGK/SMK out of a high velocity cartridge will often separate at the muzzle in lighter high velocity cartridges but work perfectly further out and within 100 yards. I've seen it happen quite a lot.

James asked what bullet failures I've had and I answered it. So you take that and the bit about the longhorn to mean that I have no handgun hunting experience??? That's an interesting conclusion you reach on very, very limited information.

No, I said accepting such limitations must be a "jacketed thing".

Since you decided to draw a conclusion and make an accusation rather than asking a question, I'll tell you. I've been handgun hunting for 30yrs. Since long before I was old enough to buy a firearm, let alone handgun. Got my first .44Mag at 16 and started hunting with it shortly thereafter.

I don't hunt with single shots so the overwhelming majority of my bullet failures have been with rifles. Why? Because I have always used cast bullets in handguns and found that they work with boring regularity. No picking and choosing my shots, no worrying about bullets failing due to excessive velocity, no worrying about angles or any of that. Most of the jacketed bullets I've used in handguns have been Speer's bonded variety and I found that they work very well. The separated XTP I posted the picture of was recovered from SIMTEST. I have never used XTP's on game because I heard of more failures than I was comfortable with and saw no reason to deviate from cast bullets. It wasn't until I started shooting 1500-2000lb animals that I discovered for myself the shortcomings of cast bullets. Which I still prefer over your average jacketed bullet for the task.

On the longhorn, yes I remember your rhetoric when it happened and I had the same response then as I do now. No, it didn't take so many shots to kill the damned thing. It was dead on the first shot, just like the two water buffalo last year. We could've easily waited for the animals to expire but this wasn't your typical hunting situation, we were there to test bullets. So the most bullets we could get into each critter before its heart stopped pumping blood was the goal. More bullets = a more data. Fortunately, a 2000lb bovine has a huge heart that pumps slow and it takes a long time for them to bleed out. Therefore, most shots were possible on the live critter before it gave out. Unlike anything possible with deer or hogs.

Yes, I would use that load again. The bullets did not fail but were recovered under the hide on the opposite side. Considering what they went through, they did very well.

Thanks for answering. Looks like you've never had a bullet failure in a handgun....looks like a lot of your distrust in some handgun bullets is through others experiences. You never know, they might not be as bad as you think if you shoot something with one (jacketed bullets) out of a handgun

Gees Zeee, Keep up the good work cause with numbers like that your hot on the trail of Doc......

PS- maybe in another 10 or 20 years

I ain?t as smart as him, but I AM prettier!

😁

A lot of what I do as well is take others hunting/culling. Like my friends, co-workers, family, and such. I give them the guns and or ammo and we go shoot things. It gets them the experience and excitement and it gets the testing done that I want done. Honestly, the joy of taking others hunting is more rewarding than doing it myself. I?ve taken plenty. I like sharing my passion with others. And I get to learn in the process.

Zee, you have definitely been a welcome addition to this site and the passion that is handgun hunting! Keep it up brother!

I SAW A FRIEND OF MINE SHOOT AN AMERICAN BUFFALO, AT MAYBE 30 - 40 YARDS, WITH A 500 A SQUARE RIFLE (HIS ELEPHANT RIFLE AND LOAD). HE SHOT IT GOOD IN THE SHOULDER AND THE BULL JUST STOOD THERE. HE THEN PUT 2 MORE INTO HIM, FORMING A BEAUTIFUL 3 SHOT CLOVERLEAF, AND STILL THE BULL STOOD THERE, FINALLY HE WENT DOWN AND EVENTUALLY EXPIRED. THE FIRST SHOT KILLED HIM BUT MY FRIEND KEPT PUMPING HIM. WE DID NOT BELITTLE HIM FOR THE 2 XTRA SHOTS, NOR DID WE DOUBT THE 500 A SQUARE, WE JUST MARVELED AT THE BISON'S TENACITY.

Oh, you?re gonna start an argument with that one. Ha!! I?m sure it?s debatable.

I am what I am. I like to share and I like to learn. Maybe not always with the greatest tact. But hey..........it?s exciting!!!

😎

No one can argue with a love of hunting and shooting, particularly handgun hunting. We are such a small group (as compared to all the other types of hunting )

Well, in full disclosure, I am a whore when it comes to firearms and hunting. I refuse to recluse myself from all the fun and knowledge I can have.

I like guns. All guns. I like hunting. All hunting.

I use handguns, longarms, bows, knives, sticks and even a tire iron once!!! I hunt close and I hunt far.

If it means I get to go to the range and or field..........sign me up!!

So, I am NOT solely a handgun hunter. Just being honest.

part time is better than no time...some folks just kill the keys on the keyboard of a computer...it's an obsession...even part time

This

That's right! You never know how much is enough until they're with St. Peter. Guy posted a video on B&M Forum of a Cape buffalo that soaked up six .577's without even acting sick. You just can't use the one shot and done approach/mindset you might use for deer. I'm gonna keep shooting until they're down and then shoot `em again.



Oh I've seen quite enough but if we're not going to learn from others, why are we here? Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Wise men learn by others? harms; fools by their own." - Benjamin Franklin

This [censored] is starting to get boring

Ha!! I couldn?t resist. 😁

I also have a friend that took a American buffalo (last year) at 40yds with a 350gr XTP from his FA`s 500WE...The buff stood a second and fell over.....Go figure.....

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a punch bullet failing? By failing, I mean blowing up, or severely deforming.

Happy Easter, gentlemen!

Happy Easter!



I bent one and cracked the brass sleeve but had to shoot it with a Barnes Buster for it to happen. The result of a mid-buffalo collision.

The US snipers use SMK bullet and they definately expand, I know I?ve used them. Also the Marines a few years back purchased 2 million what they called open tip to issue their troops for increased performance.

Like I said, limited.

Not that limited, there have always been full metal jacketed bullet that expanded and or fragmented. It?s not new.

I thought the idea behind the 77gr.OTM was to yaw? The air cavity makes the bullet tail heavy leading to Tumble. I believe it was the same for the 7.62x39 8M3 "Effect" bullet.

I use the Mk 262 Mod 0 (77gr OTM) for work and pleasure.

It expands and performs well on ?medium game?.

77 grain SMK's stabilize just fine, flying through the air, even at distance. Personally, I have not used any on game yet.
Will use 77 grain TMK's soon on prairie dogs though.

Then where's the data and how does it apply?

If it actually expands, I'm surprised as its supposed to yaw. That may result in fracture, I guess. Military lawyers gave It the thumbs up because it's not designed for expansion.
It is made for accuracy and is very stable until contact, that's when the Tumble does its damage.

Zee, be cautious if using actual Gov. 262 mod. 0. It was replaced by mod.1 in 2003. We had a bunch of mod. 0 and experienced reliability issues.

My bad. Tested the Mod 0. Use the Mod 1.

I suck with numbers. Ha!



Terminal performance is exceptional. And one of the reasons the 6.8 SPC project died.

I wish I knew as much about bullets, as some of you guys have forgotten.

It's accurate stuff to boot!! My boy shot 750 yards for the first time using that ammo and it worked like a champ. Ernie was there to participate.

What are you using, a 7 twist barrel?

Dick

Fun times for sure.
107 SMK has killed a number of mule deer, antelope and some blacktail, chambered in a 8T 243 Win, by a good friend of mine, Darrell Holland in Oregon. He is usually an Accubond fan, but he likes the 107 for deer sized game.
I have taken game with the 107 Smack, as a young man has here in Gillette with XP's.

SMK?s definately expand I?ve seen too many head of game shot with them and a fe2 recovered bullets and they expand.

I killed elk, deer and deer with the 300 grain 338 SMK and it is devastating on game. They will come undone in deer at 220 yards with extreme internal damage. At 300 on 2 deer I?ve had complete pass through with extreme internal damage. At 1400 yards they leave tennis ball size exits.

Th3 175 grain SMK is devastating on antelope at about any range.

Yes. That is a 7 Twist barrel on that particular rifle and my Contender Pistol that likes them as wel.

GENTLEMEN: A LOT OF RIFLE DISCUSSIONS GOING ON, AND SOMETIMES NO CLARIFICATION OF WHETHER YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS WITH A BULLET IN A RIFLE OR A HANDGUN. SINCE THIS IS A HANDGUN HUNT WEBSITE COULD YOU PLEASE AT LEAST LET US KNOW WHICH EXPERIENCE WAS WITH A HANDGUN.

45 man,
My experiences with the 107 Smack, was in handguns.
Darrell's is with rifles. Since Darrell was shooting sometimes at further distances than myself and Logan, the impact velocities were in the same area at times. Darrell started faster/longer barrel, which just showed they handled the faster impact velocities too.