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Re: bullet failure [Re: Ernie] #191546 04/02/2018 1:33 PM
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jwp475 Offline
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45 man,

The use of SMK?s is with rifles.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191547 04/02/2018 1:49 PM
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Ernie Offline
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It is also used in specialty pistols too...


Ernie the Un-Tactical
Re: bullet failure [Re: Ernie] #191549 04/02/2018 1:59 PM
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SacredCrows Offline
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Many of the specialty pistols due to barrel length replicate the gas gun rifles

Re: bullet failure [Re: SacredCrows] #191551 04/02/2018 2:34 PM
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Ernie Offline
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I figure that SP?s run about 200-300 fps slower MV?s, than rifles on average


Ernie the Un-Tactical
Re: bullet failure [Re: Zee] #191552 04/02/2018 2:50 PM
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Gregg Richter Offline
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QUOTE from ZEE: "I like guns. All guns. I like hunting. All hunting.

I use handguns, longarms, bows, knives, sticks and even a tire iron once!!! I hunt close and I hunt far.

If it means I get to go to the range and or field..........sign me up!!

So, I am NOT solely a handgun hunter. Just being honest. [/quote]

HELLO!

I have been admitting this for years!

Oh... BTW I killed a fox with a crossbow.

FWIW I have a bull elk and a muley buck in Pope and Young...And a huge 6X8 muzzleloader rifle bull elk that I have not bothered to enter...

I AM A HUNTER. Pretty much as my ancestors were.

Hunting "too much" helped cost me my first marriage...








Re: bullet failure [Re: Gregg Richter] #191553 04/02/2018 3:39 PM
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Me too! I didn't get a chance to hunt with any of the half dozen or so handguns I wanted to use this past season because I never got to blood my new custom flintlock rifle. Too many irons in the fire, I guess.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Ernie] #191558 04/02/2018 4:44 PM
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Ive not tried the 77 gr. OTM in my Contender, as it has the 1-12 (I believe) twist. I look forward to trying some 62 gr. Federal barrier blind/ bonded SPs though. They're .223 pressure. If they shoot well with that twist rate, they should do well. They hold together very well and expand down to 1800 FPS.


John

But for the grace of God, there, I go.
Re: bullet failure [Re: Ernie] #191577 04/03/2018 2:30 AM
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jwp475 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
It is also used in specialty pistols too...


I know, I was talking about my experience with them

Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191647 04/05/2018 3:18 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
After your experience with cast bullets on the Longhorn, would you ever use the same bullet/gun combo...that has to be the most times that I've ever heard an animal having to get shot to be killed



I can tell you exactly how many times he shot that animal, it was 12 times to get him on the ground and then borrowed a 500 to Finnish him off. That?s a total of 13 times, that?s why he refuses to say how many shots.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191648 04/05/2018 3:35 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44


No, it didn't take so many shots to kill the damned thing. It was dead on the first shot, just like the two water buffalo last year. We could've easily waited for the animals to expire .

.


The dead on the first shot? BS you shot it 12 more times total, 11 more just to get it on the ground and then borrowed a 500 to finish it off. How can you say it was dead on the first shot? Do you really think infection sets in that fast?

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191649 04/05/2018 4:15 AM
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Is there an echo in here? I already explained this. It was dead with the first shot. It was a bullet test. We don't fire a shot and let them go bleed out. We press them and put as many bullets as we can into them before the critter loses blood pressure for a more complete test. More shots = more data. In no way does that mean it "took 13 shots" to kill it.

The .500 coup de gras was unnecessary as I stood over it watching a thumb sized stream of blood gushing from its chest. Maybe if you had been there, you'd have a more accurate perception of what actually happened but folks with an agenda hear what they want to hear.

And I told in the hunt report how many shots I took. It's not a secret.

Don't pollute this productive thread with personal nonsense.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191651 04/05/2018 4:50 AM
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Congratulations 🎈 I think you have established a new record!

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191655 04/05/2018 3:21 PM
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Sometimes you just can't win. Shoot a critter one time, well that's inconclusive, not a deep enough test. Shoot one 12 times and now it's ineffective. For some people, it's all about their narrative, not what actually happened.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191657 04/05/2018 3:34 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44
Sometimes you just can't win. Shoot a critter one time, well that's inconclusive, not a deep enough test. Shoot one 12 times and now it's ineffective. For some people, it's all about their narrative, not what actually happened.


Are you trying to say you intentionally were trying to wound this longhorn, instead of taking him cleanly and effectively?

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191658 04/05/2018 3:37 PM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
 Originally Posted By: Craig44
Sometimes you just can't win. Shoot a critter one time, well that's inconclusive, not a deep enough test. Shoot one 12 times and now it's ineffective. For some people, it's all about their narrative, not what actually happened.


Are you trying to say you intentionally were trying to wound this longhorn, instead of taking him cleanly and effectively?


Hahah.
\:\)

Re: bullet failure [Re: SacredCrows] #191659 04/05/2018 3:41 PM
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Sorry but no.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191660 04/05/2018 5:01 PM
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c'mon now boys and girls, 'nuff!







Re: bullet failure [Re: jamesfromjersey] #191661 04/05/2018 5:19 PM
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Buglers 'N Bullets:

Freedom Arms .454 along with two of their 260 grain Flat Point bullets recovered from 2 different bull elk.


Perfect failures?

\:\)







Re: bullet failure [Re: Gregg Richter] #191662 04/05/2018 5:49 PM
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We used to say "magnum primers" when joking about hot topics on this site. Looks like we'll have to start saying "bullet failure."
;\)


Formerly TN Lone Wolf

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." - J.K. Rowling
Re: bullet failure [Re: Chance Weldon] #191664 04/05/2018 6:17 PM
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Greg, I'll take 2 kills with 2 shots anytime & I'll call it success no matter what the bullets look like. You need to send that gun up here to Idaho where I can take better care of it, I'll let you keep the ivory!
Dick

Re: bullet failure [Re: sixshot] #191666 04/05/2018 7:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Greg, I'll take 2 kills with 2 shots anytime & I'll call it success no matter what the bullets look like. You need to send that gun up here to Idaho where I can take better care of it, I'll let you keep the ivory!
Dick


That?s because it is a success.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Gregg Richter] #191667 04/05/2018 7:34 PM
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Did you get the PM that I sent you on the 4th?

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191668 04/05/2018 7:58 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44
More shots = more data. In no way does that mean it "took 13 shots" to kill it.



hey Gregg... I understand about the testing and wanted to ask if they were 13 different bullets?? Had to be something to see with all those guns..
\:D
\:D


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Re: bullet failure [Re: jamesfromjersey] #191669 04/05/2018 8:26 PM
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I guess this is as bad as I`ve experienced with "bullet failure"..

This was a 180gr XTP fired at 1700+ fps MV and hitting a four horn at 40 yards so you can get an idea of impact velocity... He was an extreme quarter toward and at the shot he was lifted up on hind legs and over on his back....The front leg/shoulder bone took the entire impact and what you see is what I found. Shot him through the ribs to finish... Talked with Bob Baker at the YO that year and he said "its a rare shot when an XTP did not penetrate a shoulder bone"... Anyway ...that`s my failure story... You bullet test guys are doing a service for handgunners....


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191670 04/05/2018 8:44 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44
Sorry but no.


So you were not trying to intentionally wound the longhorn, logic would dictate your 12 hits weren?t effective.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191671 04/05/2018 8:59 PM
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Logic left a long time ago when the agenda took over.

Logic would've concluded that a .44 caliber, 355gr WFN with a .340" meplat at 1200fps would be mighty effective and that no critter would know the difference if the bullet was 100fps slower with a .015" bigger meplat. Yet here we are.

Some people see what they want to see, no matter what.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191672 04/05/2018 9:05 PM
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James, that XTP has been destructicated! Looks like it hit a piece angle iron. But, it flip over the critter over, that's impressive!

Gregg, tell us about those two bullets (distance/speeds) and what parts they hit. One shows some expansion, but it's not crazy. The other turned into a glob of lead and copper, but looks like it held together.


John

But for the grace of God, there, I go.
Re: bullet failure [Re: Chance Weldon] #191673 04/05/2018 9:21 PM
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 Originally Posted By: TN Lone Wolf
We used to say "magnum primers" when joking about hot topics on this site. Looks like we'll have to start saying "bullet failure."
;\)

Being a member of various forums has convinced me that somewhere there's probably a Bagpipers forum where guys are arguing about whether a plaid kilt should be more red or green


John

But for the grace of God, there, I go.
Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191675 04/05/2018 10:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Craig44
Logic left a long time ago when the agenda took over.

Logic would've concluded that a .44 caliber, 355gr WFN with a .340" meplat at 1200fps would be mighty effective and that no critter would know the difference if the bullet was 100fps slower with a .015" bigger meplat. Yet here we are.

Some people see what they want to see, no matter what.


Then how do you explain it taking 12 hits from your 44 to get the longhorn on the ground and then a 13th with a 500 to put him out of his misery?

I?m all ears.

Re: bullet failure [Re: JDK] #191677 04/05/2018 11:18 PM
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 Originally Posted By: JDK
But, it flip over the critter over, that's impressive!



JDK, After watching that ram flip I looked down at the gun and thought "what the hell do I have here".....
\:o


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Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191680 04/06/2018 1:07 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
Then how do you explain it taking 12 hits from your 44 to get the longhorn on the ground and then a 13th with a 500 to put him out of his misery?

I?m all ears.

I counted less than six while he was on his feet, all but one on the run, six to eight more while he was on the ground and for the 1000th time, the .500 coup de gras was unnecessary. You would know this, had you actually been there. I'm sorry but you're twisting the truth to fit your personal vendetta.

All of which ignores the two water buffalo down with two shots.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191719 04/06/2018 11:36 PM
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Phil Shoemaker killed a 900 pound charging Brown bear with a 9mm with fewer shots. 👀

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191721 04/06/2018 11:54 PM
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By Phil Shoemaker

I have been guiding brown bear hunters and fishermen and bear photographers from our homestead within Becharof National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska for 33 years and have had numerous close encounters with bears. Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed. When it happened, I was fully aware of what was going on and how big the bear was. I also managed to stay aware of where my clients were, even when the bear was directly between us. The woman I was guiding said that while she did not remember smelling the bear?s breath, it was close enough to her face that it could have bitten her!

I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo. I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot.

The two photos shown here tell a pretty good story by themselves. The secondary photo (embedded at the bottom of this story) was taken from the point where the charging bear first erupted from the brush. I am on the left and Larry, my fishing client, is on the right. The bear was within 2 feet or less of Larry and his wife when I shot it. You can see the dead bear to the left of Larry. The main photo (embedded to the right) shows Larry and me with the dead bear and shows its size.

Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs.

Before we reached the stream, while we were walking through dense brush and tall grass, we heard a growl and deep ?woof? of a bear approximately 6 feet to our right (behind me in the secondary photo). We had been talking loudly but must have startled a sleeping bear. It sounded like it made a movement toward us, and I shouted loudly and the bear ran back through the brush to the right in the photo. Within 15 seconds, we could hear it growling and charging through the dense brush from the opposite side.

I had my pistol out by then, and the bear first appeared from where the photographer in photo No. 2 was standing. It went straight for my clients; Larry and his wife fell backwards in the deep grass. She said the bear?s face was close enough to hers that it could have bitten her!

The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it.

My pistol was loaded with Buffalo Bore 9mm +P Outdoorsman 147-grain FN hard-cast loads that have a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps. I had previously tested, compared and proven such loads with my .357 and .44 mags., and I was convinced they would work

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...ith-9mm-pistol/



Last edited by jwp475; 04/06/2018 11:55 PM.
Re: bullet failure [Re: Gregg Richter] #191731 04/07/2018 1:11 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Gregg Richter
Buglers 'N Bullets:

Freedom Arms .454 along with two of their 260 grain Flat Point bullets recovered from 2 different bull elk.


Perfect failures?

\:\)


Hey Greg.... looks like we both know a good thing when we shoot it
;\)

Last edited by jamesfromjersey; 04/07/2018 1:14 AM.

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Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191732 04/07/2018 1:26 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475

Phil Shoemaker killed a 900 pound charging Brown bear with a 9mm with fewer shots. 👀


Here we go again......
\:\/
\:D


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: bullet failure [Re: s4s4u] #191734 04/07/2018 2:06 AM
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Speaking of Shoemaker... heard Buffalo Bore has a hard time keeping up with its 9mm 147gr TC ammo...
\:o
;\)


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Re: bullet failure [Re: jamesfromjersey] #191735 04/07/2018 2:29 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
Speaking of Shoemaker... heard Buffalo Bore has a hard time keeping up with its 9mm 147gr TC ammo...
\:o
;\)


I heard the same.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jamesfromjersey] #191736 04/07/2018 2:29 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
Speaking of Shoemaker... heard Buffalo Bore has a hard time keeping up with its 9mm 147gr TC ammo...
\:o
;\)


I heard the same.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191741 04/07/2018 4:11 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
Phil Shoemaker killed a 900 pound charging Brown bear with a 9mm with fewer shots. 👀

And on B&M forum we watched a Cape buffalo soak up six .577's. So what???

It's a pity you weren't there to get an accurate perception of what happened but you have your version and are sticking to it. Sorry Parker but now you're just being a troll.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Craig44] #191744 04/07/2018 6:12 AM
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John, did you send me a PM on the 4th? I didn't get one.

Dick

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