bullet failure
#190374
03/13/2018 7:04 PM
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jamesfromjersey
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How do you guys define bullet failure??
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#190375
03/13/2018 7:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper
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If the critter was shot properly (define "properly"), but lived or died slowly.
Edit: "Bullet failure" can sometimes be confused with "user error". As in using an expanding bullet but expecting hard cast results, or vise versa.
A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Raptortrapper]
#190379
03/13/2018 8:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
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"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190380
03/13/2018 9:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Whitworth
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In my opinion, a bullet can be terminal in effect and still fail. Examples of bullet failure are expandables that don?t open, or cup and core bullets that experience core separation. Cast bullets that have their noses wiped off or that fragment are also failures. Bullets that vear off course or tumble have also failed. Just because it kills the animal doesn?t mean it didn?t fail as designed to perform.
Last edited by Whitworth; 03/13/2018 9:51 PM.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#190403
03/14/2018 3:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 366
JDK
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Mainly due to military FMJ use, some rounds are designed to tumble, so that may not be technically a failure, if that's the design. So, I'd say it fails if it does not perform as designed. That's pretty much along the lines of Whit's above post. The confusing part is that a bullet failure can result in an ideal game kill. Sometimes an autopsy is required. It has been an issue for a long time. Al Georg placed a brass screw in the nose of a hollow point bullet and killed a bear with it. Later, folks milled slugs from architectural bronze, and other metal, to increase performance. It is a fascinating subject.
Last edited by JDK; 03/14/2018 3:20 PM.
John
But for the grace of God, there, I go.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: JDK]
#190404
03/14/2018 3:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
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Zee
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I'd say it fails if it does not perform as designed. To which I?ll add: Or does not produce the intended result. Reason I add this is because I often use bullets for that which they were not designed. And get the precise results I want. Which means there was no failure in my book. For example, I use Hornady A-Max and ELD-Match bullets almost exclusively for bottleneck cartridge hunting bullets and get exceptional terminal performance from them. A purpose for which they were not designed. They often over expand or separate, but produce adequate penetration and better terminal performance than many ?hunting bullets? I?ve tried. So, for my purpose, they did not fail. Another example, is that I often push Hornady XTP bullets WAY above their velocity threshold and get over expansion and separation. With excellent terminal performance. They did not fail to give me the results I wanted even knowing I was pushing them beyond their design limitations. So, there are manufacturers standards and the end users. Failure can be subjective sometimes.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190405
03/14/2018 4:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#190406
03/14/2018 4:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 860
karl
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A bit like obscenity I think. Ya know it when ya see it.
The flippant response is "One that doesn't go where I want it to go" while the personal response is "One that leaves lead particles in the food I feed my family"
As Zee points out, lots of of ways to measure success/failure
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190408
03/14/2018 5:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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I'd say it fails if it does not perform as designed. To which I?ll add: Or does not produce the intended result. Reason I add this is because I often use bullets for that which they were not designed. And get the precise results I want. Which means there was no failure in my book. For example, I use Hornady A-Max and ELD-Match bullets almost exclusively for bottleneck cartridge hunting bullets and get exceptional terminal performance from them. A purpose for which they were not designed. They often over expand or separate, but produce adequate penetration and better terminal performance than many ?hunting bullets? I?ve tried. So, for my purpose, they did not fail. Another example, is that I often push Hornady XTP bullets WAY above their velocity threshold and get over expansion and separation. With excellent terminal performance. They did not fail to give me the results I wanted even knowing I was pushing them beyond their design limitations. So, there are manufacturers standards and the end users. Failure can be subjective sometimes. Yes to this, but what may be good performance on smaller game i might not use on a moose or elk and/or dangerous animals. One thing i consider abject failure is when two identical bullets from the same manufacturer is shot into the same animal and one seperates and fails and the 2nd fails to expand at all. This i find troubling.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#190409
03/14/2018 6:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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Are you talking about a particular red stag that weighed in around 350-lbs give or take? 300 grain Mag XTP from a .45 Colt??
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#190411
03/14/2018 6:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
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bscott
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I think I explained my definition in a prior post I made about load testing ie Bullet failure. Early in my reloading career I was experiencing Bullet failure when I use to rifle hunt. Yes I got burnt with the sexy looks of the Ballistic tips shooting the wrong load recipes which resulted with a couple of wounded animals that i am not proud of. The bullets fail to expand properly. This why I don't shoot per say cookbook loads before I do I use you guys as a reference and then I decide if it's worth my while to invest time in. You have to put the proper amount of range time in
"THEY FALL LIKE DEAD WEIGHT!"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#190417
03/14/2018 7:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
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Yes to this, but what may be good performance on smaller game i might not use on a moose or elk and/or dangerous animals. Well hello, Captain. ;-)
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190418
03/14/2018 8:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
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tradmark
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Hahaha. Yessir, one if my favorite commercials btw!
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#190427
03/14/2018 11:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Franchise
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This is how I look at this subject and this is just my personal opinion. First I don't believe in 1 type/style of bullet for all game. I match each and every game animal with a specific bullet/load/caliber. Bullet failure to me is when my bullet cannot get to and destroy the vitals of the game animal that I'm hunting. I think some of what we consider bullet failure are just poor initial bullet/gun choices....I don't think that a 400 gr solid from my 416 Barnes is a good choice for deer, and neither do I believe that a 125 gr BT from my 300 Whisper is supposed to reach the heart of a Hippo...it would be hard for me to blame the bullet if I made the above poor choices....just me.
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#190430
03/15/2018 12:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 366
JDK
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What if our expectations are different than the designer? Reaching the vitals and causing sufficient damage is a good basic definition, but we may want pass through penetration as well. We're a special and peculiar bunch, so, as students of the gun and ammo, we may want much more than bullet manufacturers will design.
John
But for the grace of God, there, I go.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: JDK]
#190433
03/15/2018 1:26 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,596
racksmasher1
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190434
03/15/2018 1:52 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 228
Ramjet-SS
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That's simple a bullet that fails to make it to the vitals because it has destructed in muscle tissue and bone. Seen it on couple of elk severe soft tissue damage but no penetration to the vitals.
Last edited by Ramjet-SS; 03/15/2018 1:54 AM.
You can't fix stupid!
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190438
03/15/2018 3:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job. I love you.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#190443
03/15/2018 3:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Are you talking about a particular red stag that weighed in around 350-lbs give or take? 300 grain Mag XTP from a .45 Colt?? Actually yes. Thats but one of a few examples but the prime example.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190446
03/15/2018 6:45 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job. I love you. Ok, so ill ask if the animal is dead but only because you got lucky and a bullet fragment happened to cut a large artery coming out of the heart or lungs but u absolutely know u woulda lost the animal had u been an inch further back? Sometimes luck over shadows the bullet not working as advertised. I go back to the local in liberia comment. Ok so you made it but would you do it again? In the case of the bullets whit posted, its only dead cuz of another bullet shot, actually a vastly superior bullet. Racksmasher, how many bullets do you allow to kill the animal, especially small to medium sized game?
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190451
03/15/2018 10:44 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,596
racksmasher1
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190453
03/15/2018 10:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job. I think blindly accepting a kill as a bullet success might be inviting disaster. It could be happenstance and a little luck that was more responsible for the demise of the animal than the bullet doing its job as designed. This is why we perform necropsies on all the animals we kill. I just have to know what happened....
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#190454
03/15/2018 11:03 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,596
racksmasher1
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Mark, I never had to shoot a Deer twice with a Handgun, I like Hornady bullets, they work for me, I will be testing the 300 grain XTP in my new Freedom next week on our little group hunt.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#190455
03/15/2018 11:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821
45MAN
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I HAVE NOT DECIDED WHAT I WOULD DEFINE AS BULLET FAILURE BUT I DO KNOW THIS: WHATEVER BULLET FAILURE MAY BE, THE RIGHT BULLET AT THE CORRECT VELOCITY LOWERS THE CHANCES OF BULLET FAILURE. SIMPLY THAT IT KILLED MAY NOT BE ENUFF AS YOU MIGHT NOT BE SO LUCKY NEXT TIME.
"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190460
03/15/2018 1:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper
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A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Raptortrapper]
#190461
03/15/2018 2:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Franchise
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Between Jim, Matthew, Cole, and I, we will have a bunch of pictures...All different guns (types/styles), various bullet configurations, and all different sizes of animals....from 22 mag, 35 Remington, 44 Mag, 50 AE, 500 S&W, and a 450 Alaskan...all pistols, all day
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#190462
03/15/2018 2:24 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job. I think blindly accepting a kill as a bullet success might be inviting disaster. It could be happenstance and a little luck that was more responsible for the demise of the animal than the bullet doing its job as designed. This is why we perform necropsies on all the animals we kill. I just have to know what happened.... I have stood over a dead animal killed with one shot. Opened it up and surveyed the internal results and not liked what I saw. The bullet worked, the animal is dead, but maybe I didn?t get the amount of damage or expansion/penetration I wanted. Ultimately deciding to use a different bullet next time or at a later date. A recent example, I have been using the 165gr Sierra HPBT-GK in .308 Win to cull a bunch of deer and pigs the past couple months. They have all died but the internal damage or the recovered bullets aren?t what I?m looking for. Not pleased with the bullet and could say it has ?failed? in that respect. But, it?s killed everything I?ve shot with it. The end result? I will use up the loads I have left.........and switch to the ELD-Match. A bullet not designed for hunting but that gives me ?better? results. Waste not. Want not. Got the Sierras loaded. Just don?t like them.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190464
03/15/2018 3:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job. You took the words......................
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190465
03/15/2018 3:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job. I think blindly accepting a kill as a bullet success might be inviting disaster. It could be happenstance and a little luck that was more responsible for the demise of the animal than the bullet doing its job as designed. This is why we perform necropsies on all the animals we kill. I just have to know what happened.... I have stood over a dead animal killed with one shot. Opened it up and surveyed the internal results and not liked what I saw. The bullet worked, the animal is dead, but maybe I didn?t get the amount of damage or expansion/penetration I wanted. Ultimately deciding to use a different bullet next time or at a later date. A recent example, I have been using the 165gr Sierra HPBT-GK in .308 Win to cull a bunch of deer and pigs the past couple months. They have all died but the internal damage or the recovered bullets aren?t what I?m looking for. Not pleased with the bullet and could say it has ?failed? in that respect. But, it?s killed everything I?ve shot with it. The end result? I will use up the loads I have left.........and switch to the ELD-Match. A bullet not designed for hunting but that gives me ?better? results. Waste not. Want not. Got the Sierras loaded. Just don?t like them. pretty much how it goes
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#190466
03/15/2018 3:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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you have all heard the expression "match the bullet to the game". After 35+ years of hunting with a handgun I found that by following those words the chances of bullet failure or lost game go down tremendously....todays hunting bullets are of a pretty basic design.... Some differences here and there... Some good and some not so good...About 10 years ago I compared recovered XTP vs Swift bullets... The better bullet? Swift...However, from the size and weight category of the animals taken, the XTP`s did what they were suppose to.... Match the bullet to the game and put one in the kill zone and you should have you trophy...
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190467
03/15/2018 4:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
Shooting Expert
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Well, I been giving eyes to you for awhile now. You just haven?t been paying attention. :-)
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: racksmasher1]
#190468
03/15/2018 4:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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Mark, I never had to shoot a Deer twice with a Handgun, I like Hornady bullets, they work for me, I will be testing the 300 grain XTP in my new Freedom next week on our little group hunt. I thought animals other than deer were on the menu as well. Il used em on elk, the elk was dead. The fact it took 3 thru the vitals lead me to assume it was a failure despite looking at a dead animal. Good luck on you guys hunt next week and i look forward to seeing the results.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190474
03/15/2018 6:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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I have stood over a dead animal killed with one shot. Opened it up and surveyed the internal results and not liked what I saw. The bullet worked, the animal is dead, but maybe I didn?t get the amount of damage or expansion/penetration I wanted. Ultimately deciding to use a different bullet next time or at a later date.
and so it goes..... the more you hunt...the better you know what a bullet can and cannot do.....I found one caliber that I could cross the line to where performance suffers is the .41...I`ve had great results especially with the a-frame, but twice I used them on large boar that overwhelmed its capabilities. Both animals died but after more shots then I was comfortable with.. A mistake on my part by not matching the bullet to the game...
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#190475
03/15/2018 7:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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Every time that I've ever had an issue is when I mismatched the appropriate bullet/gun combo to the game that I was hunting.
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#190478
03/15/2018 10:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
Shooting Expert
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I used to be happy with a simple dead animal. Years ago. Now, I want to know how. I want to know why.
My thirst for knowledge has ruined my simple hunting days. No longer a hunt. They are quests for understanding of terminal performance.
The science of death intrigues me. What caused it. How to cause it.
Such is my lot in life.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#190480
03/15/2018 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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[quote=Zee]
I`ve had great results especially with the a-frame, but twice I used them on large boar that overwhelmed its capabilities. Both animals died but after more shots then I was comfortable with.. A mistake on my part by not matching the bullet to the game... If the A-frame was overtaxed, consider how much worse it would have been had you used an XTP!
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#190481
03/15/2018 10:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
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I used to be happy with a simple dead animal. Years ago. Now, I want to know how. I want to know why.
My thirst for knowledge has ruined my simple hunting days. No longer a hunt. They are quests for understanding of terminal performance.
The science of death intrigues me. What caused it. How to cause it.
Such is my lot in life. Im the same. I had two bellweather events that caused me to start investigating. One was a rifle elk hunt that went bad with a good shot but a trusted bullet went to hell and turned 90 degrees and became a long long two days to recovery. The other was another elk hunt with my 454 and instead of a crushing blow a trusted bullet led me on a long long chase that led me on a long long chase and got off the mountain 20 hrs later. Dead animal but dang, not good.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#190484
03/16/2018 12:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 818
sixshot
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 818 |
I've held off on this one, wanting to read some of the responses from others because this one can get very complicated & also quite heated. We all go off of personal experience, the more experience, the more chance for failure, success & opinions that can be flexible or maybe 100% based on just 1 or 2 shots. If they were good it's a great bullet, if we made a bad hit or missed it was the bullets fault, just human nature. I personally don't think there are any bad bullets, I just think they can be used for the wrong situation & bad things happen. I've heard stories of the shot being absolutely perfect yet the animal escapes & is never recovered, how do we know it was a perfect shot if we don't find the animal. Use any bullet outside it's parameters & bad things "might" happen, sometimes we get lucky & it still works out. I'll give you an example. Back in the very early 70's me & a friend were deer hunting & we had tied our horses in the shade next to a nice little Beaver pond (full of trout) & started hunting a stand of Quakeys. We spotted some deer but didn't shoot anything & it started to get dark. On the way back down I happend to look up on the skyline & spotted a spike bull elk. If he hadn't been sky lined I never would have seen him. I had an elk tag in my pocket but was packing a Ruger 6mm with 85 gr. Nolser Solid Base bullets because I was deer hunting. I had won the rifle the year before in a big bull elk contest, it was one of the very first flat bolt 6mm's ever made. The shot as I remember was about 80-90 yds steep up hill & I held on the base of his throat. At the shot he disappeared & neither of us could tell if I had hit him or if he had ran. we walked up hill but now it was dark so we walked back down to where I had shot from & looked again. We spread out & went back up & my buddy Gene stepped right on his legs. That Nosler Solid Base, against all odds had killed that bull, wrong bullet, light caliber & a full blown lucky shot. So, what makes a bad hit, many things. Bad shooting, wrong bullets, too far away, sometimes too close & the bullet explodes on impact. Bad angles can do it, hunting isn't written in stone, once we pull the trigger lots of things can & do happen, some are good & some are bad, some can be explained, some can't, some are imagined. Then there are times the perfect bullet is used & put in the perfect place but the animal actually over powers the bullet, yes it does happen. You do everything right & still it takes 3-4-5 shots or more on a Cape Buffalo, Elephant, Lion, etc & still the animals soaks up bullet energy long enough to put up a fight, there's enough oxygen in their system to stay up & be a danger for a long period of time. Nothing is guaranteed in hunting, nothing.
Dick
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#190485
03/16/2018 12:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
Distinguished Master
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Distinguished Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512 |
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#190486
03/16/2018 12:47 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
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Shooting Expert
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020 |
Nope. Nothing is guaranteed. I had a run of 4 elk just awesome performance, then a run of bad performance. Started video nearly all my hunts so i could know with certainty where the bullets hit.
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