Ok, getting back into handgun hunting and starting to put together some 44 mag loads.
I never killed anything with the handgun when I was packing it, but 44 mag, 45 colt, or 480 I always loaded a heavy for caliber hardcast.
A few years ago I killed a nice mid size bull moose at about 100yds with my Marlin guide gun in 450 Marlin with handloads that had a 420 hardcast doing just shy of 2000fps. I was less that impressed. 1 shot in shoulders & 3 shots were in the heart/lung area. He walked around 150 yds. Had to finish him on the ground with shot 5. 1 bullet recovered from offside shoulder looked like you could load it again. So I know my 44 mag with 300 or 320s in the 1300-1350fps range will perform about the same.
And yes i know I should have tried to break the shoulders.
BUT, now I'm wondering id some controlled expansion bullet might serve me better.
Critters I get to hunt reguraly are black bear, brown bear, & moose. I might load a different (lighter) bullet for black bear than the others, but where I live large (9'+) brown bear are always a possibility.
Based on your experiences, what would your recommendations be?

Swift A-frame

Speer Deep Curl

I think a lot of folks are finally catching on to the fact that velocity is your friend and a bonded expanding bullet in big bore guns creates larger wound cavities and plenty of deep penetration.

Uh oh.... Here we go!

Black bears aren't hard to kill. I preferred a 45 Colt with 335gr hardcast from cast performance. It's overkill, but my goodness is it deadly!!

I don't have experience with the other critters you mentioned...yet!

Randy M, do you have personal experience with the deep curl on heavy big game mouse or brown bear size?

The best example is all of the Cape Buffalo that are falling with ease to the 454 and 460 with Swift A Frames and similar expanding bullets...once folks actually use them themselves, they are believers

Fact!

Nope. Just a lot of impressive results on deer and hogs.

Mine fell easily to a non expanding solid, as have a bunch more really big animals I?ve killed. When your chosen cartridge starts out at a half inch in diameter, expansion isn?t so critical. That said, it all depends on the cartridge and the game. Some revolver cartridges lend themselves well to higher velocities like the .454 and the .460. Others don?t that have limited case capacities. Where you can generate velocity, you might as well take advantage of it with a good expanding bullet that can withstand the impacts. It also depends on the game. If elephant or some other really thick skinned animal is on the menu, I?ll take a monolithic solid - at the highest achievable velocity ( where accuracy isn?t compromised). The .460 is a monster with A-frames, but really unimpressive with XTPs...

Some game is more susceptible to the shock offered by high velocities such as deer, bear and cats, and I firmly believe that you are well served with a quality expanding bullet at a higher velocity (it?s relative, when we?re not talking bottle-necked rifle cartridges). XPBs are dynamite on mountain lions!

I know that cast bullets seem to be a divisive topic, but a good quality cast will work like a charm if used within the parameters they were designed to work within (like all bullets). If you push them too hard you are asking for trouble, but that?s not the fault of the bullet. In many instances they are very good medicine.

I'm gonna have to try these Deep Curls. Never heard of them!

Well, it?s about that time of year and we haven?t had one of these threads in awhile. Lol.

Its honesty comes down to personal preference and what works for you (each individual..gun/bullet/game animal) if a bullet does not impress you...try another...sometimes you'll be surprised how well a different bullet might work

OOOOHHHH MAN!!!!! You should have seen the large vs magnum primer thread a few years back! It was one of those things that we don't even mention any more! To say the P word just in passing almost got ya exiled after that. It was seriously worse than politics!

Those of us who have been here awhile,have all been down that road enough times that I don't think much will come of the bullet debate. Both have there place,and pretty much everyone knows the others preferences in bullets.

Oh I agree! But it brings back some memories!!

Don't it though. LOL!!! The primer thing was to the point of asinine.

No personal experience, but I've heard two things about moose. They're not exceptionally hard to kill, but it can take awhile for them to realize they're dead. I've read of them absorbing killing shots from 375 H&H and 458 Magnum rifles and continuing to wander about and eat until they fall down. Your 450 load seems like it should've been deadly, but animals are funny sometimes. Whether an expanding bullet is right for Brown bear is something I cannot speak to, but it seems the classic stories I've read about hunting them with handguns tends to involve heavy HC lead. But, bullets are also much better now than when Larry Kelly and JD Jones were pioneering the sport of taking really big game with handguns. That's a long way to say, I don't know, but good luck and be careful!

Trust me guys ive seen plenty of these type threads come and go here. Ive been away for a while but ive been a member here for over 15 yrs (i remember the old forum) and have over 2000 posts si ive seen just about every "argument".
But as John said technology does change... i was firmly in the hardcast camp but after my rifle experience i have concerns. The country i live in has a lot of thick brush and swamps in a lot of the areas so im looking for short blood trails. For now ill probably be sticking with hc but if i could find a heavy jacketed bullet that penetrated well but had some sharp edges to open things up just a bit i wouldnt mind a bit. Moose arent especially hard to kill (for an animal there size but every part of them, hide or bone is thick and tough so a whitetail bullet wont cut it. And of course i want 1 load for every animal because in the fall all 3 are in season and inhabit the same places.

What about a bonded bullet of some sort then? Kind of the best of both worlds, I think?? Perhaps that's what the Deep Curls are?

Just thinking out loud...

I'd still vote for hardcast though. But I have no experience with those critters, so not real helpful. Just speculating I guess.

Vance, it's the old Ford vs Chevy argument we always get into & everyone gets a bloody nose once in a while, then we shake hands & have a good laugh....who won?
In your case because of the big bears, use the very best bullet you can buy because it might come down to one bullet. The really good bonded jacketed or flat nose solids have never been better & velocity doesn't phase them.
Good cast bullets will always have their place but you have to understand 2 things with cast, speed & hardness. If they match you are fine, get either one out of it's comfort zone & it's easy to fail.
Of course all of the above depends on bullet placement, we all agree on that, but if they are the same & we're hunting in Alaska where big starts at 6-700 lbs & can easily go twice that then you have to rethink your bullet selection.
Your moose sounds like he was one tough son of a gun, that happens even with that big hammer you were hitting him with.
I shot my Idaho bull with a Ruger SRH 480 & a 370 gr cast bullet at about 1050 fps through both lungs, one shot & about 6-7 seconds & he plowed into the snow. Maybe if I had shot the other bull standing next to him it would have been an out come just like what you had. That's why hunting is never the same.
One difference, my cast bullet was a softnose cast, but went clear through both lungs at about 45 yds offhand.

Dick

FOR ME HERE ARE SOME MEGA-IMPORTANT KEYS TO BIG GAME HUNTING WITH REVOLVERS: 1) LARGE CALIBER (I MOSTLY USE 45 COLTS/454's), 2) BULLET INTEGRITY, WHICH ELIMINATES MOST CAST BULLETS PUSHED AT OR OVER 1,300fps, 3) A FLAT POINT OF APPROPRIATE WIDTH, AND 4) HIT 'EM IN THE SHOULDERS!!!! SO YOU MAXIMIZE SHOCK ON THE ANIMAL. I HAVE FOUND THAT TKO VALUES, USING APPROPRIATE BULLETS, IS A VERY GOOD INDICATOR OF REVOLVER KILLING POWER, SO PUSHING THE BULLET FASTER IS A PLUS.

Interesting. I certainly don't want to bring up a sore subject, but I'm actually interested in this topic. I've done my own tests with my 460 on large vs. magnum and had unexplainable results. The mags were consistently slower. Head scratcher.

I've always loaded one of John Linebaugh's pet loads in my 45c, 265 gr. with 24gr H110...but I've been looking to go heavier and I've been looking at the 335 WLN, what load do you use?

My favorite is the 335gr WLNGC from Cast Performance. Use it with Titegroup for a light load, or with H110 for a full house load. It was very accurate either way.

I can't speak about options for 44 mag or about the A-frame or deep curl (I think the A-frame looks like a great choice with the webbed jacket to ensure bullet integrity but have never used them) But I've had good luck with the Barnes bullets. I'm working up a load for my 454 right now with their 250gn bullet as a woods gun with. They are lighter then your typical lead bullet load, but you can (and should!) run them faster. The down side is bullet cost. I usually have a hunting load and practice load with similar ballistics.
In 45-70 with an Encore pistol they will literally knock big deer off their feet at 100 yards. In bullet testing they retain all their weight, penetrate very well and open up to ~2x their original diameter with sharp copper petals. In heart/lung shots I have seen entrance wounds in the lung tissue that look like a 2" broad head passed through. The exit wound is typically ~2" and in between it looks like blood sausage ready to be stuffed. I hope to try them this fall on an AK moose with a slightly.

I'm sure someone has done a youtube video comparing different 44mag loads in ballistics gel that you could find. While not directly translatable to live animals, it is a reasonable comparison between loads.

Well stated friends. I agree that diameter is constant, especially with a Cutting Edge Bullet (CEB) of solid brass or copper or when using a Punch bullet. And accuracy is of paramount importance to hit the vitals with precision. Velocity is a constantly diminishing component, but rotations per minute imparted to the bullet by that velocity is relatively constant. This apparent "drill-effect" is still a useful component.
An A-frame through the lungs can be good for bleeding-out, or causing the injured lung cavity to fill-up with blood.
I have heard that a moose "hurts all over" when shot, but that it can take a while for the lungs to fill-up with blood. I have no first-hand knowledge though. You Whitworth have tremendous experience with handgun hunting, on the other hand.
Just keep posting the truth of your experiences and I will keep reading and reacting to the postings.

First you gotta decide what you are willing to pay. The best bullets arent cheap but neither are the game animals you hunt, nor are the guns you shoot em with. That said, for solids the solid copper and punch are the single kost reliable bullets you can shoot. A frames and some barnes are the best expandables you can get. I find the aframes personally the best. Somewhere along the line there was a nonsensical idea purported that velocity increases feom 1300-2000fps dont matter and thats crazy. I also believe if little diameter increases of .023 makes some monumental difference then knocking up the diameter to .7-.8 if ground breaking and have found that to be true especially if a marginal shot is made. I jabe one load that knocks the socks off of 2000+ lb bovines and little animals as well is loads that involve an aframe.

Bullet cost should never factor into an expensive hunt, that's peanuts. Why would you go low ball on a bullet? How many are you going to shoot on a hunt?
If you rely on cast like I do, you absolutely can NOT over drive them, that's what many do not & will not ever understand. Drive them hard onto a hard surface & they will fail, we learned that back in the 70's in handgun Silhouette. When we softened the bullet a bit & slowed them down a bit, the Rams would go over. Run them fast & a hard alloy & the bullets would shatter.
You need tough bullets, not brittle bullets. High antimony cast bullets on bone can break your heart, true story. Will they equal the best jacketed bullets, absolutely not.


Dick

Well said, Dick.

Very true and the key factor. Well said

I have not shot many large animals but I did put four 420 grain hardcast slugs from a .475 Linebaugh into an honest 10' Brown Bear that was wounded by another hunter. Two of the slugs were recovered under the hide on the opposite shoulder I hit. The guide said he could see the bear was "Rocked" by each hit. Would a 400 grain XTP have done better , I'll never know I suppose.

Id go with a big no they wont.

jmho I use hard cast. got more than I'll need for years to come ( ok I'm cheap) and they do what i need doing. I have not shot a moose or have any want to do so. I have been in on a few of moose recoveries. Moose are stupid and spiteful. Too stupid to fall down and when they know they are about to they make a beeline to the thickest nastiest wettest spot for mile around. Then you get to spend all day and half the night, destroying 2 chainsaws, a 4 wheeler and a couple of 4x4 trucks till you get to the point of " I should have just sat down and eaten the S.O.B. in place." WE'RE HAVING FUN NOW !

Are ya sure it's the moose that's spiteful?

Hilarious. Reminds me of a caribou I killed in Alaska about 4,000 miles from the bush plane. One pack trip on my back (and my guide) walking on a 4' thick wet sponge the whole way back.

And that is precisely why you need to put them down right now. None of that one-shot necessary nonsense. The moose needs to be shot until it crashes to mother earth and unable to get up on its own accord. I remember my guide in Maine telling me to empty my revolver in the moose and make sure it doesn't head into the swamp as that is where it's going if not killed quickly.

Not in my estimation.

Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.

My cow moose last fall at ~150 yds dropped at the shot and didn't get up. I made a high lung shot that just nicked the spine. I happened to use a 350 rem mag with a 225gr sierra, but I have little doubt I would have had the same results with a 45-70 hardcast, or a .308 with an expanding bullet, or a 416 rem mag.

If she'd gotten back up or didn't drop at the shot I would have kept shooting until she was down.

Cast bullets can be great, and there can be times when they aren't the best choice. Same with expanding bullets.

Vance, I shot two bulls. One Shiras and one Alaskan.. The Shiras took a 260gr JFP by Freedom Arms through the heart. Like you said, the recovered bullet could be loaded again. No expansion at all and losing one grain in weight. The Alaskan took a 44 Punch bullet through the lungs, however, as the bull turned and ran I grabbed the guides 375H&H rifle and put one round ( Barnes copper 270gr) up his rear. Its funny cause the punch went through but the recovered Barnes started to expand but bent in half that stopped its penetration. I may still have that bullet. However, both moose ran after taking a hit which may explain why both went down so quickly (pumping all that blood through its big body) while using non-expanding handgun bullets. With my limited experience and talking with other hunters it seems to me that a still moose can absorb a ton of lead but if it runs after a decent hit it will expire much faster..

Paul, Living in Alaska sure has benifits