I think a lot of folks are finally catching on to the fact that velocity is your friend and a bonded expanding bullet in big bore guns creates larger wound cavities and plenty of deep penetration.

Randy M, do you have personal experience with the deep curl on heavy big game mouse or brown bear size?

I think a lot of folks are finally catching on to the fact that velocity is your friend and a bonded expanding bullet in big bore guns creates larger wound cavities and plenty of deep penetration.

Well, it?s about that time of year and we haven?t had one of these threads in awhile. Lol.

OOOOHHHH MAN!!!!! You should have seen the large vs magnum primer thread a few years back! It was one of those things that we don't even mention any more! To say the P word just in passing almost got ya exiled after that. It was seriously worse than politics!

but if i could find a heavy jacketed bullet that penetrated well but had some sharp edges to open things up just a bit i wouldn't mind a bit.

Bullet cost should never factor into an expensive hunt, that's peanuts. Why would you go low ball on a bullet? How many are you going to shoot on a hunt?
If you rely on cast like I do, you absolutely can NOT over drive them, that's what many do not & will not ever understand. Drive them hard onto a hard surface & they will fail, we learned that back in the 70's in handgun Silhouette. When we softened the bullet a bit & slowed them down a bit, the Rams would go over. Run them fast & a hard alloy & the bullets would shatter.
You need tough bullets, not brittle bullets. High antimony cast bullets on bone can break your heart, true story. Will they equal the best jacketed bullets, absolutely not.


Dick

Bullet cost should never factor into an expensive hunt, that's peanuts. Why would you go low ball on a bullet? How many are you going to shoot on a hunt?
If you rely on cast like I do, you absolutely can NOT over drive them, that's what many do not & will not ever understand. Drive them hard onto a hard surface & they will fail, we learned that back in the 70's in handgun Silhouette. When we softened the bullet a bit & slowed them down a bit, the Rams would go over. Run them fast & a hard alloy & the bullets would shatter.
You need tough bullets, not brittle bullets. High antimony cast bullets on bone can break your heart, true story. Will they equal the best jacketed bullets, absolutely not.


Dick

I have not shot many large animals but I did put four 420 grain hardcast slugs from a .475 Linebaugh into an honest 10' Brown Bear that was wounded by another hunter. Two of the slugs were recovered under the hide on the opposite shoulder I hit. The guide said he could see the bear was "Rocked" by each hit. Would a 400 grain XTP have done better , I'll never know I suppose.

jmho I use hard cast. got more than I'll need for years to come ( ok I'm cheap) and they do what i need doing. I have not shot a moose or have any want to do so. I have been in on a few of moose recoveries. Moose are stupid and spiteful. Too stupid to fall down and when they know they are about to they make a beeline to the thickest nastiest wettest spot for mile around. Then you get to spend all day and half the night, destroying 2 chainsaws, a 4 wheeler and a couple of 4x4 trucks till you get to the point of " I should have just sat down and eaten the S.O.B. in place." WE'RE HAVING FUN NOW !

jmho I use hard cast. got more than I'll need for years to come ( ok I'm cheap) and they do what i need doing. I have not shot a moose or have any want to do so. I have been in on a few of moose recoveries. Moose are stupid and spiteful. Too stupid to fall down and when they know they are about to they make a beeline to the thickest nastiest wettest spot for mile around. Then you get to spend all day and half the night, destroying 2 chainsaws, a 4 wheeler and a couple of 4x4 trucks till you get to the point of " I should have just sat down and eaten the S.O.B. in place." WE'RE HAVING FUN NOW !

Would a 400 grain XTP have done better , I'll never know I suppose.

Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.

Shot placement is more important than bullet construction, that and some times animals just don't want to die quickly.

At the end of the day, it's good, basic commo n sense really. Place your shots properly, use a good, quality bullet and use enough gun...

l was with some of the best handgun shots in the country last

Saturday at this years' first IHMSA Big Bore.. Lots of them also

handgun hunt... The ONLY point agreed on was shot placement. Just no agreement on bullet type or caliber..

There are exceptions to that rule. I have in recent years seen firsthand bullets that came apart on the onside of animals and never made it to the vitals. So bullet construction in my humble opinion is critical. If one chooses a premium bullet, it's just one less thing you have consider or worry about. JMHO.

Just wondering about the quality of the cast bullets they use.

Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.

Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick

While I've admitted many times a cast bullet has its limitations compared to the premium bullets like the A Frames, etc it comes down to what is a BIG bone. I'll always be in the minority camp on this but I'm comfortable with it because I've never had a problem with cast in my type of hunting. I don't hunt the megatron's & I've killed a hell of a lot of big game with cast & I always shake my head when others have had problems.
I've always said I "think" it's because they use hard cast but we can argue that forever & never sort it out. I've always been open about shooting them as soft as possible & still maintaining accuracy & seldom at speeds above 1300 fps.
I've said it before, a hard cast on a hard bone, especially at high speeds is asking for trouble, better used a jacketed here.
I've never changed because I've never hunted anything bigger than elk, moose, bears, lion, plains game, etc. I've maybe recovered 5-6 bullets over a 50 year span & almost all of those have been in the last 5-6 years using some cast HP's on deer.
When you are breaking both front shoulders of large elk with a cast bullet & exiting you don't need to make excuses for your bullets but you do have to concede to better bullets if you hunt the really big, big stuff.... I don't. I can make my cast bullets expand as much or as little as I like by adjusting my alloy & speed & it's never, ever failed, I've never lost an animal or had to have any help & maybe 3 have even got out of sight.
Where I live & hunt it's usually more open so getting out of sight can be a little tougher than for many of you, I do it to suit me, others do it for the same reasons, why would we do it any other way?
Match you loads & your style to the game at hand & then become a practiced hand & you'll answer to nobody!

Dick

Again you need to figure if you're willing to limit your shot placements. If you'll only take perfect broadside shots into the boiler room, an expanding bullet might be the better choice. If you add quartering shots and heavy bone, then IMHO quality hard cast or mono metal solids are the better choice.

Which get's back to my original comment about shot placement, as it is tied into the bullets you use and the shots you take, or don't take.

I have enjoyed this thread.

No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.

No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.

John, hopefully this thread has opened a few closed minded eyes. Hard Cast bullets NEVER did what some claimed. Those writers either could not handle recoil, or we too lazy to actually test heavy, bonded big bore pistol bullets..it was in today's words Fake News

The recoil comment was in relation to 900 fps - 1100 fps is much easier to control than the say load at 1,800 fps....hence all the downloading

The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL

The 50 Alaskan exceeds my recoil tolerance for sure...hahaha

The 50 Alaskan has few equals for sure....the same folks back in the day would say that the 500 Linebaugh could equal the 50 Alaskan with the same bullet, just slower.....only when they were dreaming....LOL

What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame

What is everyone experience with XTP? How close does it come performance of A frame

No popcorn but I've enjoyed a couple of cigars.

A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...

Cast bullets were, and always have been, built to do 2 things, penetrate & penetrate!! How & if they damage depends on nose profile. Expansion is usually zero or minimal but that is easy to change if you know how to do it, some do & some don't care, they just want penetration.
It's next to impossible to make them expand like a jacketed bullet & anyone that claims they can is wrong. If you shoot pure lead you might but that's not a cast bullet really.
Running cast bullets at 900-1100 fps & getting massive penetration is possible but it depends on nose profile & alloy & also what it comes in contact with, there's no free lunch.
It's a given that cast bullets are built to penetrate & jacketed bullets are built to expand, both can cross over to some extent but there's always a trade off so pick your poison.
Arguing what is best is senseless, use what you have confidence in, if you've had success with something for 30-40-50 years you probably have some pretty strong opinions on what works & how to get there, if your loads are bordering on failure, maybe listen to someone who's got a better hammer.
Our choices of guns, bullets, powders, scopes, rangefinders, etc has never been better, use what suits you & help out the new guys that ask for it.
If someone tells you several million Bison were killed with pure lead in a round ball at fairly pedestrian velocities..... buy him a CIGAR!

Dick

Anyone have load data for .429 A-Frames in 280 & 300gr?
Just curious as to what velocities a guy can actually expect with them in the 44 mag.
I really don't want to buy Swifts book for a bullet I may load someday...

A few glasses of single malt scotch for me...

Vance, load development with Aframes can get expensive, so my limited experience with 280 gr Aframes in 44 Mag is:

280 gr Aframe
21.5 gr H110 (start lower)
CCI 350
Starline virgin brass
1.590 oal
1370 fps ave
10" SBH

I really like 240 gr Aframe better for deer than 280 gr. They clock 1470 fps out of the 10" SBH. I don't hunt bear, moose, etc, so the lighter bullet suits my needs better. I haven't tried 300 gr Aframes. Hope this helps.