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.41 mag for elk? #43205 12/28/2008 1:52 AM
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taurus41 Offline OP
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Just curious if anyone out there would suggest or has experience dropping an elk with a .41 magnum. If so what bullet/load? Currently I load a 210 grain sierra jhc @ 1500 fps. would this do the job on an elk under 100 yards?? thanks for any replies.


Taurus 425 .41 magnum
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #43209 12/28/2008 3:16 AM
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wapitirod Offline
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I wouldn't recommend using the 41 on elk unless you were shooting something like the 265gr Cast Performance and shoot to break it down.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43216 12/28/2008 4:44 AM
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I've never shot an elk. But I won't use 210 JHP's on deer much less an elk.

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: BINGO] #43221 12/28/2008 5:33 AM
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I don't know, a 41 mag seems a bit small. I mean look at what most hunters consider a good elk bullet. Most of my freinds won't go with anything less than a 300 win mag, Now we all shoot much smaller cartriges than that, but My opinion is maybe start with a 375 win or 444 marlin.

Lars


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: lhunter03] #43225 12/28/2008 6:25 AM
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Handgun hunting elk I would go no lower than .44 Magnum and using 320 grn WFNGC cast bullets. I'd also limit my range to 50 yards or less. I'd personally use a .375 JDJ.


Gary D. Dowdy
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: GaryDowdy] #43229 12/28/2008 7:47 AM
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wapitirod Offline
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it's important to remember that a mature bull elk will be roughly four times the size of a mature buck and in fact can push 1000 pounds and they are tough, they make a bear look like a wussy when it comes to packing lead.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #43241 12/28/2008 1:50 PM
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I would not hesitate to shoot an Elk with my S&W 657 shooting the 265gr Cast Performance bullets. 100 yards would be my absolute max range tho. I have shot whitetails with 210 grain JHP but they would be too light for larger game. And with a revolver you would have the ability to keep applying lead at a high rate of speed if needed. Let us not forget about the huge bull moose that was taken with the 45LC on the front page of this site. You can do it..

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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: 7STDUBBERU] #43250 12/28/2008 4:39 PM
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taurus41 Offline OP
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thanks for all the replies. I thought it would be do-able with the right bullet. Is the Federal Hard Cast 250 grain load comparable to the 265 gr cast performance? thats the load i carry for bear protection.


Taurus 425 .41 magnum
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #43251 12/28/2008 5:14 PM
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I'll also say that once you fire the first shot, keep shooting even if it's at the hind end. Assuming of course the first shot was a hit. Put as much lead in that animal as you can.


You can't wait any longer. Join the NRA and start writing your Congressmen and Senators.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #43253 12/28/2008 5:43 PM
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 Quote:
thats the load i carry for bear protection


Now, that's more like it!


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43254 12/28/2008 6:33 PM
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Use the heaviest bullet for the caliber, keep your shots under
100yds and wait for a broadside shot. Put that first shot through
the lungs and the elk is yours. I can`t say how far he may go after the first shot but if you double lung him you should have a decent trail. Good luck and good huntin,JFS


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gary] #43258 12/28/2008 7:10 PM
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The 250 Cast Core should work fine.

 Originally Posted By: Gary
I'll also say that once you fire the first shot, keep shooting even if it's at the hind end. Assuming of course the first shot was a hit. Put as much lead in that animal as you can.


Gary's thoughts are words to live by in the elk woods.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #43336 12/29/2008 7:22 PM
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In Kentucky the law requires to hunt elk with a handgun: the bullet shall produce at least 550 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards. May want to check your state law and load energy.

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: TonyinKY] #43338 12/29/2008 8:07 PM
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 Quote:
In Kentucky the law requires to hunt elk with a handgun: the bullet shall produce at least 550 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards.


Sooo, the warden carries a shooting-chrony with him in the woods ;-)


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43361 12/30/2008 1:17 AM
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In Colorado it has to produce 500 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards with factory ammo.

Lars


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43404 12/30/2008 1:39 PM
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 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
In Kentucky the law requires to hunt elk with a handgun: the bullet shall produce at least 550 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards.


Sooo, the warden carries a shooting-chrony with him in the woods ;-)


Yep! He carries it in a holster right there beside his service gun and ticket book. I wonder what he would say if you got 549 ft/lbs at 99.75 yards?

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: 243fan] #43407 12/30/2008 3:29 PM
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 Originally Posted By: 243fan
 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
In Kentucky the law requires to hunt elk with a handgun: the bullet shall produce at least 550 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards.


Sooo, the warden carries a shooting-chrony with him in the woods ;-)


Yep! He carries it in a holster right there beside his service gun and ticket book. I wonder what he would say if you got 549 ft/lbs at 99.75 yards?


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: lhunter03] #43411 12/30/2008 4:45 PM
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 Originally Posted By: lhunter03
In Colorado it has to produce 500 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards with factory ammo.


Are you required to use factory ammo?


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43415 12/30/2008 6:11 PM
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I would use it at under 50 yards with a heavy loaded heavy hard cast. As well as what others have said, "Keep Firing" until you hear the click, then reload and be ready for another fire fight. An Elk can take alot of punishment before they will drop if you don't hit the sweet spot with your first shot. Even a double lung shot they can travel along ways in just a few seconds. Good luck to you. I would think about getting a .44mag or bigger just for the security in case the big boy is out a little farther then 50 yards though. rupe


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: rupe] #43450 12/31/2008 1:00 AM
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If the brush in the Whitefish area is as heavy as it is in the Libby area, I would bet your shots would be under 50 yards.


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: pab1] #43463 12/31/2008 2:20 AM
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No your not required to use factory ammo, I think thats just there way of regulating things. That way some city slicker doesn't think he can go bear huntin with to small of revolver I geuss.

Lars


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gary] #43485 12/31/2008 7:24 AM
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wapitirod Offline
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check out my last post under the "ammo" thread

Last edited by wapitirod; 12/31/2008 7:24 AM.

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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #43541 12/31/2008 10:42 PM
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Depending on BC of the bullet the 210 grain at 1500 from the barrel meets Kentucky energy requriments. I used this sites ballestic caculator.

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Lowe] #43551 12/31/2008 11:33 PM
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The 41 will giterdun, my whitetail load delivers 670 ft lbs @ 100 yards. It is only .019" smaller in diameter than the 44, with near the same capacity, and actually has better BC.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43566 01/01/2009 12:50 AM
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regardless of the energy using a hollow point out of a 41 for elk would be unethical, you will not get the penetration needed, in fact you would be lucky to reach one lung. I cannot overstate enough how different from a deer these animals are, their skeleton is massive compared to a deer and unless you thread it between the ribs and don't hit any other bones your in trouble which is why I stated before that if you must use a 41 then use the heavy hardcast. I think I mentioned before that the bull I shot this year I hit the final time at about 60yds with a 45-70 running a 350gr Hornady soft point at 1900fps and it went through one rib the heart a second rib but was stopped by the leg bone and that is alot more energy and penetration than you'll ever get out of a 41.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #43569 01/01/2009 1:19 AM
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 Quote:
a hollow point out of a 41 for elk would be unethical


 Quote:
if you must use a 41 then use the heavy hardcast.


I agree with you on both points, but the same must be said for the 44, and even the 45LC.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43570 01/01/2009 1:27 AM
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 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
a hollow point out of a 41 for elk would be unethical


 Quote:
if you must use a 41 then use the heavy hardcast.


I agree with you on both points, but the same must be said for the 44, and even the 45LC.


Yup, when it comes to straight walled cartridges...

Big Animals need Big Hard Lead!


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: 7STDUBBERU] #43572 01/01/2009 1:32 AM
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Agreed, I've even come to that conclusion with my 475's, I originally thought about the XTP but after taking my first bull with a slow heavy bullet I'm switching back to hardcast for the big stuff.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #43579 01/01/2009 2:25 AM
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Like Rod said, Elk are beastly compared to deer. I saw a hot 300 win mag 180 grain partition hand-load hit a bull at 75 yards broadside, miss the ribs going in and not exit. They are tough and require a big ol hunk of lead. From my experience they don't bleed much from entry holes and they can run a ways after a solid hit. So an exit hole will create a much better blood trail. A 41 simply wont cut it. 44 mag is minimum IMO.


What part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Is that a cub] #43588 01/01/2009 5:47 AM
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 Quote:
A 41 simply wont cut it.


BLASPHEMY!!!


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #43595 01/01/2009 8:03 AM
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I hit this bull at 60 yards with a 444 grain flat point .50 caliber bullet and thought I missed. He showed no sign of being hit. They are tough animals!


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: pab1] #43596 01/01/2009 8:17 AM
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this is what I kind of expected, those of us who hunt elk on a regular basis may chase one with a 41 or 44 if it's what we have to work with but we would do it without any illusions that we have severely handicapped ourselves beyond what you normally would be with a handgun, I'd actually feel more comfortable with my recurve. I'm not trying to knock the 41 and I don't want to disuade anyone from handgun hunting but I think it would be worse if someone went out with a false sense of security we had given them and can't figure out why after put 6 210gr JHC bullets into him he just ran up the ridge and stuck his tongue out at him as he headed for the next county. I know of guys that routinely hunt elk with 243's and 30-30's and they take their share of animals but they miss out on alot because they have to have the perfect shot and regardless of what you see on tv out here it doesn't normally work that way especially when your hunting the coastal rainforest like I am now or my previous stomping grounds around the park border to Crater lake national park, it's all straight up and down with big timber and heavy underbrush.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #43602 01/01/2009 12:23 PM
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Wish I had the dilemma of what to use on Elk. Just Whitetails for me. IMO with firearms I would be leaning towards the big hole makers! If I had the chance to take one with my 44 I would like to be pretty close to the Elk. I have seen a plenty how tough Whitetails are, I could only imagine it being tougher for the Elk.


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Jeremy] #43608 01/01/2009 1:07 PM
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Dan B. Offline
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I've been fortunate enough to harvest two elk...one with a bow and another w/ a rifle.

The bow harvest was a cow at 40yds, through the heart...she was in a herd that was not spooked, took three steps, looked around and fell over.

The rifle harvest was a bull at 348yds, three shots were take and all connected. I was using a 30-06AI w/ 165gr Nosler Soid Base bullets at close to .300 Win Mag performance. First two went through the lungs, he just stood there looking acrossed the canyon wondering where all the noise was coming from. I held slightly higher and forward on the last shot and broke him down w/ a high shoulder shot.

Now...my opinion on using a .41 Mag for elk. I'd have it holstered w/ the heaviest cast bullet it would shoot and have a T/C .375JDJ, XP-100 7mmWSM, or something else as the primary gun. Should one walk in unexpectedly at short range (under 30yds) where I could only use the .41 Mag, I'd stick a bullet around the on side shoulder and try to brake the offside shoulder then start thumbing the hammer like crazy, once empty, find an opening and try to hit it again with the big gun.

Or...throw the gun over the elk's back to make him look the other direction, grab the big gun and hit him with the big lead!!


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Dan B.] #43644 01/01/2009 4:40 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Dan B.
Or...throw the gun over the elk's back to make him look the other direction, grab the big gun and hit him with the big lead!!


I like that strategy Dan! I'll have to give it a try!


Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce.
Osborne Russell Journal of a Trapper


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: pab1] #43756 01/02/2009 5:52 PM
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 Originally Posted By: pab1
 Originally Posted By: Dan B.
Or...throw the gun over the elk's back to make him look the other direction, grab the big gun and hit him with the big lead!!


I like that strategy Dan! I'll have to give it a try!


Ha Ha, me too!!!


What part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Is that a cub] #43760 01/02/2009 7:15 PM
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Top Secret Pennsylvanian hunting tactics, Sweet!


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Jeremy] #44369 01/10/2009 12:23 AM
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My computer has been down and it took me a while to be able to post. Being a .41 nut I have tried a lot of different bullets in the .41. If I were to hunt elk with one of my .41s I would use the Hornady 300 gr .411 bullet made for the .405. I had JD Jones lengthen the throat a bit in my fourteen inch contender barrel so I could keep the longer heavier bullets out of the area that is supposed to be filled with powder. Out of my barrel I send the 300 gr bullet down range at 1500 fps. This is pretty close to what a .454 will do out of a revolver. This bullet will also work out of my Redhawk but I haven't cronographed them from the Ruger. Forget about using these bullets out of the S&W, the cylinder is to0 short and the gun won't hold up to this kind of pounding. At the velocity you won't get any expansion or very little. When I want this bullet to expand I put it in my mini lathe and center bore the nose with a 1/4 inch tile bit bringing the weight to 275 gr.. This gives good controled expansion.

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Ed P 6989] #44398 01/10/2009 2:40 AM
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I know the original question was for the 41 mag revolver. A few have mentioned the Contender option. I would like to drop the 414 Super Mag into the mix. If you have a Contender or Encore barrel a rechamber to 414 would boost the performance a little with the heavier bullets and give a little more of an edge. Just a thought.


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #108037 05/05/2012 4:32 PM
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I know this is an old thread but here is my take.
The .41 mag is just fine for ELK!
The factory jhp in 210 gr. is not what I would call the a proper load for Elk. Having said that I do know of several Elk and Black bear killed stone dead with the Win 175 grain Silver Tip out of a 4" revolver!
Shot placement is foremost!
.44 VS. .41?
.429"or .430" Factory loads are normally a 240gr. at 1250 fps which gives approx.833
Atotal of 103 ft pouynds of energy difference
ft lbs.
.41 Mag gives a 210 grain at 1250 fps which gives approx 730 ft. lbs's of energy.
Now step up to a .41 with a 250 grain bullet moving along at 1250 and the .41 looks pretty good and the energy number show about 868 ft pounds.
It is shot placement no matter if you are shooting a .41, .44, or a 500!
Out here during the depression there was a community where there was but one rifle and it was loaned out so the folks could get some winter meat. It ran up a good number of ELK and PRONGHORN.
The rifle? It was a Winchester M94 in the .25-35.
Ammo was pretty pricey then so they had to pick their shots carefully!
When used properly the .41 as the lowly .25-35 will and can work if it applied properly!

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: PBR DRIVER] #108039 05/05/2012 6:45 PM
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 Originally Posted By: PBR DRIVER
.... When used properly the .41 as the lowly .25-35 will and can work if it applied properly!


Yeah, and the .25 Colt will work for moose.

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/107519/page/1#Post107519




My point is, kind of like beating a dead horse, these discussions are endless.

Sooo... my 2 cents, having three revolver kills on big mature bull elk, (plus multiple bulls and cow elk with T/C pistols and five mature bulls with ML's and one Pope and Young bull with my bow; not to mention my rifle elk and my guiding experience on elk); is that I would feel I could get it done with a .41 if I absolutely had to, but I would feel extremely uncomfortable and take only the PERFECT shot for that gun/cartridge combo; which according to the elk hunt kill stats, may not ever happen in ten years of elk hunting. And IF I was going on an expensive elk hunt, and paying an outfitter, and spending a bunch of money to do it, etc. etc., and only owned a .41, then I would consider the BEST part of the money I spent on the hunt would be for a new bigger badder revolver in the .454 Casull range or BIGGER. Plus of course, the bunch of ammo I bought at the same time to become PROFICIENT with it from field shooting positions.







Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108052 05/06/2012 1:51 AM
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Wow the last post was from Tig over 3 years ago…

Well put Mr. Gregg!!!!!

The problem with digging up old threads is the original origins of the question may be lost, or in this cases, the tread starter hasn’t posted in years… … …


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: TCTex.] #108065 05/06/2012 1:31 PM
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I have seen Moose dropped with a 41 mag, properly loaded and applied it will work in spades on Elk

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: jwp475] #108151 05/07/2012 4:03 AM
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Gregg Richter Offline
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475


... properly loaded and applied it will work in spades on Elk


That has been established, no argument here; it will work in Colorado also.



;\)








Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108162 05/07/2012 7:22 AM
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yep but it's not what you would call and ideal elk cartridge which is why I converted my step dad's 41 to 45LC and I have it stuffed with 335gr WFNGC's for him. I knew a guy that emptied his rifle at a running bull and the last shot caught him low in the gut but the bull came to a stop and he was able to get within roughly 50yds and drop it with one shot from a MKI but I don't think I'd play that game. If your going to hunt an animal you should have enough respect to use enough or more than enough gun just in case things don't go as scripted which I don't know about these hunts you pay through your ass for but on diy public land hunts hunting pressured animals things seldom work out like you'd like them too.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #108166 05/07/2012 8:42 AM
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I'm not sure why people consider a properly loaded 41 mag to be not enough gun for an Elk.

anyone that chooses to hunt Elk with a revolver or revolver cartridge accepts the range and sight limitations of the weapon. A wide meplat 230 grain hardcast will shoot completely through and Elk (exit)

I would not feel underguned with a properly loaded 41 mag

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: jwp475] #108179 05/07/2012 2:22 PM
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I agree with jwp475, If you know what you can do, and aren't "pushing the limits" (i.e. being an irresponsible hunter) you could take an elk with that calibre and a very good bullet - however the qustion he asks is telling too - he isn't sure and that tells me he either needs to get confident or choose a different weapon. I would say he should prepare for both and get some range time in along with researching bullets AND possibly look at a second weapon if the other two don't boost his confidence - and that doesn' mean blind arrogance either.
Either way, Im glad he asked instead of assuming he could take any animal with any calibre.

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Wayland137] #108280 05/08/2012 2:44 PM
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This is one of those discussions that has a lot of opinions for & against. But many keep going back to the old argument about seeing elk run off from being hit with a 300 Win mag so how can a handgun get it done. Its simple, energy figures don't mean a whole lot in the real world of hunting. You need bullet placement & you need penetration, that usually means a good cast bullet, expansion is nice but not necessary if you are using a 41 maggie or bigger. Saying a 44 will work & a 41 is too small is a strange statement.
I don't believe a 210-215 gr slug is the answer because I don't think either will give you the needed penetration to exit on an elk, they are very tough. I've mentioned before that I think they are tougher than moose.
I've taken 2 elk with my 41 maggie's, both were one shot kills. I used a 230 gr Keith on one, got about 4 feet of penetration on that one & used a 250 gr LBT on the other, broke both front shoulders & also exited. Stood next to a friend a few years ago & watched him drop a nice bull moose with one shot using a 41 maggie & one of my 230 gr cast slugs. The bull was facing us straight on, got about 4 feet of penetraton on him, although we could not find the slug, but it was well past the diaphram. The slug went through the brisket, into the chest cavity, took out one lung & the top of the heart, went back into the guts somewhere. He went about 30 yds & dropped, probably was down & out in 6-7 seconds.
Don't make the mistake of pushing for every bit of velocity you can squeeze out of a sixgun, you have to work your loads up where you can manage the recoil and get good accuracy. 1100 fps with good accuracy is much better than 1300-1400 fps & flinching. My 250 gr LBT was doing about 1150 fps on my last elk, she never took a single step, I think the distance was 74 yds.
A bigger caliber will "not" make up for a bad hit.

Dick

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: sixshot] #108282 05/08/2012 3:18 PM
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Well stated, Dick!


It's not the gun, but the man behind it.

Sheriff Russell Cottle, Ret.
USMC; 1967-1970; Vietnam-'68-'69
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Russell] #108284 05/08/2012 3:24 PM
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Whitworth Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Russell
Well stated, Dick!


As usual!


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: sixshot] #108285 05/08/2012 3:24 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
This is one of those discussions that has a lot of opinions for & against. But many keep going back to the old argument about seeing elk run off from being hit with a 300 Win mag so how can a handgun get it done. Its simple, energy figures don't mean a whole lot in the real world of hunting. You need bullet placement & you need penetration, that usually means a good cast bullet, expansion is nice but not necessary if you are using a 41 maggie or bigger. Saying a 44 will work & a 41 is too small is a strange statement.
I don't believe a 210-215 gr slug is the answer because I don't think either will give you the needed penetration to exit on an elk, they are very tough. I've mentioned before that I think they are tougher than moose.
I've taken 2 elk with my 41 maggie's, both were one shot kills. I used a 230 gr Keith on one, got about 4 feet of penetration on that one & used a 250 gr LBT on the other, broke both front shoulders & also exited. Stood next to a friend a few years ago & watched him drop a nice bull moose with one shot using a 41 maggie & one of my 230 gr cast slugs. The bull was facing us straight on, got about 4 feet of penetraton on him, although we could not find the slug, but it was well past the diaphram. The slug went through the brisket, into the chest cavity, took out one lung & the top of the heart, went back into the guts somewhere. He went about 30 yds & dropped, probably was down & out in 6-7 seconds.
Don't make the mistake of pushing for every bit of velocity you can squeeze out of a sixgun, you have to work your loads up where you can manage the recoil and get good accuracy. 1100 fps with good accuracy is much better than 1300-1400 fps & flinching. My 250 gr LBT was doing about 1150 fps on my last elk, she never took a single step, I think the distance was 74 yds.
A bigger caliber will "not" make up for a bad hit.

Dick




Spot on!!!!!!!

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: jwp475] #108297 05/08/2012 4:59 PM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
[quote=sixshot]This is one of those discussions that has a lot of opinions for & against. But many keep going back to the old argument about seeing elk run off from being hit with a 300 Win mag so how can a handgun get it done. Its simple, energy figures don't mean a whole lot in the real world of hunting. You need bullet placement & you need penetration, that usually means a good cast bullet, expansion is nice but not necessary if you are using a 41 maggie or bigger. Saying a 44 will work & a 41 is too small is a strange statement.
I don't believe a 210-215 gr slug is the answer because I don't think either will give you the needed penetration to exit on an elk, they are very tough. I've mentioned before that I think they are tougher than moose.
I've taken 2 elk with my 41 maggie's, both were one shot kills. I used a 230 gr Keith on one, got about 4 feet of penetration on that one & used a 250 gr LBT on the other, broke both front shoulders & also exited. Stood next to a friend a few years ago & watched him drop a nice bull moose with one shot using a 41 maggie & one of my 230 gr cast slugs. The bull was facing us straight on, got about 4 feet of penetraton on him, although we could not find the slug, but it was well past the diaphram. The slug went through the brisket, into the chest cavity, took out one lung & the top of the heart, went back into the guts somewhere. He went about 30 yds & dropped, probably was down & out in 6-7 seconds.
Don't make the mistake of pushing for every bit of velocity you can squeeze out of a sixgun, you have to work your loads up where you can manage the recoil and get good accuracy. 1100 fps with good accuracy is much better than 1300-1400 fps & flinching. My 250 gr LBT was doing about 1150 fps on my last elk, she never took a single step, I think the distance was 74 yds.
A bigger caliber will "not" make up for a bad hit.

Dick




one of the best posts to ever exist! couldn't agree more.

Last edited by tradmark; 05/08/2012 5:00 PM.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: sixshot] #108298 05/08/2012 4:59 PM
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 Quote:
Saying a 44 will work & a 41 is too small is a strange statement.


Exactly! What is .019" after all?


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: sixshot] #108447 05/10/2012 4:50 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
This is one of those discussions that has a lot of opinions for & against. But many keep going back to the old argument about seeing elk run off from being hit with a 300 Win mag so how can a handgun get it done. Its simple, energy figures don't mean a whole lot in the real world of hunting. You need bullet placement & you need penetration, that usually means a good cast bullet, expansion is nice but not necessary if you are using a 41 maggie or bigger. Saying a 44 will work & a 41 is too small is a strange statement.
I don't believe a 210-215 gr slug is the answer because I don't think either will give you the needed penetration to exit on an elk, they are very tough. I've mentioned before that I think they are tougher than moose.
I've taken 2 elk with my 41 maggie's, both were one shot kills. I used a 230 gr Keith on one, got about 4 feet of penetration on that one & used a 250 gr LBT on the other, broke both front shoulders & also exited. Stood next to a friend a few years ago & watched him drop a nice bull moose with one shot using a 41 maggie & one of my 230 gr cast slugs. The bull was facing us straight on, got about 4 feet of penetraton on him, although we could not find the slug, but it was well past the diaphram. The slug went through the brisket, into the chest cavity, took out one lung & the top of the heart, went back into the guts somewhere. He went about 30 yds & dropped, probably was down & out in 6-7 seconds.
Don't make the mistake of pushing for every bit of velocity you can squeeze out of a sixgun, you have to work your loads up where you can manage the recoil and get good accuracy. 1100 fps with good accuracy is much better than 1300-1400 fps & flinching. My 250 gr LBT was doing about 1150 fps on my last elk, she never took a single step, I think the distance was 74 yds.
A bigger caliber will "not" make up for a bad hit.

Dick


Agreed. And of course "A bigger caliber will "not" make up for a bad hit." Not speaking for the others; but I never said that. What I DID say, (if you all did not understand the MEANING of what I said) was: that a bigger caliber will give you an advantage of range and shot angles, and still be within that realm of respect for the animal, than a smaller caliber as the .41. And that will INCREASE your chances of a successful bull elk hunt. Also I am specifically talking about mature bull elk, which can be up to a third bigger than a cow elk.

And just for argument's sake; that bigger caliber will also be a definate advantage on a MARGINAL shot; as we have all made those at least once, eh?








Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108458 05/10/2012 10:46 AM
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Why will the bigger caliber give you a range and angle advantage? Not trying to be argumentative, but I have seen .41 mag loads tested that handily out-penetrated bigger calibers, so the angle issue is entirely dependent upon the bullet used and load.


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #108472 05/10/2012 1:55 PM
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Whit,the heavier properly shaped slug would have superior penetration due to physics; ie. mass and momentum. Are you saying that bone-smashing power is not greater with the bigger slug? You say "the angle issue is entirely dependent upon the bullet used and load." Well that of course goes without saying.

Are you talking same-type of bullets in each? I would like to read that info if you can share the source.

Here all along, Whit, I thought you were a "big-bore" fan.

If what you say is right, why is bigger better?








Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108473 05/10/2012 2:28 PM
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Obviously the lighter bullets won't have quite the bone-breaking potential of let's say a 500 grain slug. I am a big-bore fan, but heavy slugs, with a good nose profile in .41 Mag will often penetrate with the big boys. In fact, I have seen on numerous occasions where they consistently out penetrate the .429 Magnum in testing. The weight to caliber is relative. Some guys run sub-400 grain bullets in their .50 cals, which despite weight will not likely out penetrate the 265 grain bullets we have tested in .41 Magnum. Depends on how you load. I don't consider 350s in a .475 or .500 to be heavy for caliber, yet lots of guys do and wouldn't hesitate to use such a load on big game. In that case, a .41 Mag loaded let's say with 265, may penetrate deeper. There are lots of factors involved, but because the bullet has a smaller diameter doesn't mean it won't penetrate deeply. Now, if you load it light with an expanding bullet, you may not see the deep penetration I am talking about. Your mileage may vary.

Why do I prefer bigger calibers? It's simple; They make a bigger wound channel in most instances. I like big holes, but to assume that a smaller diameter bullet won't penetrate deeply in an animal is a mistake IMO. Of course, I tend to load heavy for caliber bullets with large meplats and have found no issues really with penetration in any of the calibers I use for the above mentioned reasons. But you are right that when extreme penetration is required, I do prefer really big and really heavy, but don't sell the .41 Maggie short when loaded properly as it will get the job done in spades. Again, your mileage may vary.


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Whitworth] #108483 05/10/2012 3:49 PM
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The smaller bullet is penetrating with the larger bullets because it has a smaller frontal surface area to resist penetration the larger bullet is going as deep or deeper because of kinetic energy from it's increased weight. Like Whit said though there are alot of variables and therefore nothing can be set in cement. The smaller bullet is more susceptible to deflection or being stopped once it enters the animal. I'm pretty much against light for caliber bullets. I have some 355 HC's I load for my 475's but only because they are accurate, fast and fun to shoot, but if I'm hunting with them I use 400gr XTP's and if I feel I ever "need" a hard cast I have 425's loaded. The 41 I rechambered wasn't because i didn't think it could kill an elk, I did it because I knew anything a 41 could do a 45LC could do better.


I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #108486 05/10/2012 4:11 PM
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I am a 41 mag fan. My most accurate revolver is a 41. I really enjoy shooting them. The load that I use most is a 210 XTP @ about 1500 fps. I have used it on numerous animals (mostly deer sized exotics -- Sika, Fallow, Axis). It seldom provides an exit for me if the target is 100 yds or more.

I have also witnessed another shooter hunting an oryx --- that soaked up 5 hard cast 41s over a couple of hours before finally expiring. Admitedly, not all of those hits were where you would like them, but any hit is better than no hit on a wounded animal.

I saw my cousin shoot a Sika (broadside at about 80 yds) with a FA 41 mag shooting my load. The hit was perfectly behind the shoulder. The deer showed that he was hit, but then ran into the brush headed west. Four of us searched for him. Not one drop of blood was found. The shooter began to walk in semi-circles. Eventually, the deer was found about 125 yds east of where he was hit. The only blood found was within the last 25 yds of the deer.

I have also had them drop where they stood when hit with that load. But it does not always happen.

Based upon my personal experience, if I am going to hunt with a revolver today, I would like a bigger one in spite of my affection for the 41s. My 41s are my "fun guns." If I use a 41, I am more careful of my placement.


It's more important where you hit 'em, than what you hit 'em with.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wtroper] #108496 05/10/2012 7:06 PM
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I don't think anyone is actually badmouthing the 41 maggie, those who have used it very much knows very well that it doesn't take a back seat to some of the bigger calibers, that is with correct bullets, 250-265 gr, etc. Some don't have any experience with a 41 yet they down play what it can do.
I've used it a great deal on big game & although I know in my head that a bigger caliber should work better I've never actually seen it work that way in the field. I've taken a couple of cow elk that were extremely large & my friends bull moose would certainly be bigger than a large bull elk.
While its never a disadvantage to use a bigger caliber it can work against the shooter if he over guns himself & starts to lose accuracy. Heavy bullets don't need maximum velocity to work, the large mass gets the job done if the shooter makes correct hits & that will never change.
Back in the days before most of us had access to chronographs I thought my loads were going faster than they actually were. Along the way what I discovered was, my loads at 1100-1200 fps were passing through everything I shot, deer, elk, bears, antelope, lion, moose & African game & everything in between. So a little light came on in my head, if 1100-1200 fps is working & my 41 maggies are killing everything in sight.......why do I need more horsepower, answer is, I don't, what I need is accuracy every time, without fail. Give me any angle & I'll hit the vitals. Will a 250 gr 44 slug out perform a 250 gr 41 slug, of course not. We can discuss "marginal" but .019" probably fits that discription quite well.

Dick

Last edited by sixshot; 05/10/2012 9:30 PM.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: sixshot] #108497 05/10/2012 7:11 PM
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And that was my point......loaded correctly and it isn't giving up much of anything. Thanks for the thoughtful and informative post.


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Whitworth] #108500 05/10/2012 8:29 PM
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my point has always been that it's load dependent. i have loads that i shoot that are wholly inapproprate for raking shots on elk out of my 454, same way i wouldn't use a hornady 325 on certain shots out of my 475, but there are loads that are appropriate in the .41 and there's 500 smith loads i wouldn't wanna use. once you get the 41 and above imho its 99% about the bullet but it's always 100% about accuracy and if someone shoots it better than a larger caliber, use the .41

Last edited by tradmark; 05/10/2012 8:29 PM.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: tradmark] #108501 05/10/2012 8:35 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
my point has always been that it's load dependent. i have loads that i shoot that are wholly inapproprate for raking shots on elk out of my 454, same way i wouldn't use a hornady 325 on certain shots out of my 475, but there are loads that are appropriate in the .41 and there's 500 smith loads i wouldn't wanna use. once you get the 41 and above imho its 99% about the bullet but it's always 100% about accuracy and if someone shoots it better than a larger caliber, use the .41


Very well said!


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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: sixshot] #108547 05/11/2012 1:30 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sixshot
I don't think anyone is actually badmouthing the 41 maggie, those who have used it very much knows very well that it doesn't take a back seat to some of the bigger calibers, that is with correct bullets, 250-265 gr, etc. Some don't have any experience with a 41 yet they down play what it can do.
I've used it a great deal on big game & although I know in my head that a bigger caliber should work better I've never actually seen it work that way in the field. I've taken a couple of cow elk that were extremely large & my friends bull moose would certainly be bigger than a large bull elk.
While its never a disadvantage to use a bigger caliber it can work against the shooter if he over guns himself & starts to lose accuracy. Heavy bullets don't need maximum velocity to work, the large mass gets the job done if the shooter makes correct hits & that will never change.
Back in the days before most of us had access to chronographs I thought my loads were going faster than they actually were. Along the way what I discovered was, my loads at 1100-1200 fps were passing through everything I shot, deer, elk, bears, antelope, lion, moose & African game & everything in between. So a little light came on in my head, if 1100-1200 fps is working & my 41 maggies are killing everything in sight.......why do I need more horsepower, answer is, I don't, what I need is accuracy every time, without fail. Give me any angle & I'll hit the vitals. Will a 250 gr 44 slug out perform a 250 gr 41 slug, of course not. We can discuss "marginal" but .019" probably fits that discription quite well.

Dick



Again Dick is spot on!!!! The 41 Mag loaded with a proper bullet is not marginal for Elk, put the bullet in the correct location and game over. I have seen this done on multiple occasions.

A close friend dropped a charging moose at the shot with a 41 mag. The moose fell with its head between the legs of the person that the moose charged, whom had fallen down.

Generally as caliber size goes up the larger caliber penetrates deeper, but the 41 mag routinely out penetrates the 44 mag assuming good bullets in each

As to the poster that posted about a deer running 125 yards and leaving no blood trail after taking a hit from a 41 mag, well I have seen the same exact thing happen with rifles. In other words things out of the ordinary happens at time

I would wager a hefty some that a 230 grain semi wad cutter with a wide meplat would exit on any sane angle on an Elk and if placed in the vi tails would kill quite well indeed

The 41 mmag properly loaded is no "pip squeak"

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: tradmark] #108548 05/11/2012 1:31 AM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
my point has always been that it's load dependent. i have loads that i shoot that are wholly inapproprate for raking shots on elk out of my 454, same way i wouldn't use a hornady 325 on certain shots out of my 475, but there are loads that are appropriate in the .41 and there's 500 smith loads i wouldn't wanna use. once you get the 41 and above imho its 99% about the bullet but it's always 100% about accuracy and if someone shoots it better than a larger caliber, use the .41



EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Whitworth] #108573 05/11/2012 1:58 PM
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Gregg Richter Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Why will the bigger caliber give you a range and angle advantage? ....................


 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
..............................
But you are right that when extreme penetration is required, I do prefer really big and really heavy....




\:D







Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #108577 05/11/2012 2:25 PM
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I say that we are all pretty much on the same page here; as far as: assuming proper weight and shape bullet for caliber is met; the .41 will get it done. I never said contrary. What I said was "I would feel I could get it done with a .41 if I absolutely had to, but I would feel extremely uncomfortable and take only the PERFECT shot for that gun/cartridge combo." I still feel that way.

You all can hunt whatever you like with your .41; and have good success. As for me, I will stick with my .454 and .475 for the bigger game. And I will encourage my elk hunting clients to do the same; as I want them to have the best advantage they can get because of the odds against you when hunting elk.

And I'll bet that if the Q was: .357 for elk?.... somebody would say that "with the proper heavy-weight hardcast bullet it will work in spades."

And somebody else will say: "Spot on!!!" or "EXACTLY!!!"



But regardless of the responses either way, no problem; because it will work in Colorado. Ya know how I know? Well because the DOW says it will because it is the minimum caliber required for Big Game.

\:D










Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108582 05/11/2012 3:07 PM
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Whitworth Offline
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Hey, there is still no replacement for placement -- period. But stepping up to a larger, more "powerful" caliber still requires a proper bullet and load. Some folks load light and fast in their big calibers and are not taking advantage of the true capabilities of their big-bores.....

Minimum requirements are rarely based on caliber effectiveness.


Max Prasac

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Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Whitworth] #108608 05/12/2012 2:00 AM
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Ya DUH! No argument here; never was, never will be as far as placement goes.







Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108609 05/12/2012 2:06 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Gregg Richter
As for me, I will stick with my .454 and .475 for the bigger game. And I will encourage my elk hunting clients to do the same; as I want them to have the best advantage they can get because of the odds against you when hunting elk.

\:D






I'd rather them to bring a 41 mag than a 454 or 475 if they shot the 41 more acurately. One must place the bullet propely are all is lost and elk hunting isn't easy.

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: jwp475] #108613 05/12/2012 2:32 AM
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Gregg Richter Offline
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
 Originally Posted By: Gregg Richter
As for me, I will stick with my .454 and .475 for the bigger game. And I will encourage my elk hunting clients to do the same; as I want them to have the best advantage they can get because of the odds against you when hunting elk.

\:D






I'd rather them to bring a 41 mag than a 454 or 475 if they shot the 41 more acurately. One must place the bullet propely are all is lost and elk hunting isn't easy.





Refer to my last post('s).

\:D












Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108619 05/12/2012 5:05 AM
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Vance in AK. Offline
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There's always a practical lower end limit, & I would say that's probably 357 max or 41 mag with proper bullets. It's true that shot placement is #1, but if we carry that to it's conclusion then we will be condoning the Single Six in .22 LR as adequate if it's what you shoot best :-)
A proper saying in my old street racing/drag racing days was there's no replacement for displacement. I was a big block chevy guy.
I like the larger calibers, but my 480 is loaded relatively mild so I can shoot it well with it's 400gr at around 1100fps. I could push it from there but might not shoot it as well.
So, I guess I believe in shot placement with displacement!


Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Vance in AK.] #108622 05/12/2012 5:34 AM
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 Quote:
So, I guess I believe in shot placement with displacement!


Best of both worlds
;\)


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: s4s4u] #108703 05/13/2012 11:31 PM
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I suspect those that think a properly loaded 41 mag is marginal for Elk have never used one. Just MHO

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: wapitirod] #108707 05/14/2012 2:07 AM
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 Originally Posted By: wapitirod
I wouldn't recommend using the 41 on elk unless you were shooting something like the 265gr Cast Performance and shoot to break it down.

I know for a fact several elk and 2 black bears killed corn bread dead with the 175gr. Silver Tip from a 4" revolver.
It is shot placement and being upto the task at hand.
The 175 would not my choice but it just goes to prove that the critters don't read the ballistic tables...


Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: PBR DRIVER] #108720 05/14/2012 11:58 AM
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I have seen a 44 Mag not penetrate a black bear because the shooter didn't use a hardy enough bullet...

Dead Horse...

You can kill it with a 22. This is a God Bless America free public handgun forum where we all have different backgrounds and ideas. If we all came from the same mold than we would all drive the same truck in the same color and live in the same neat little white picket fenced in neighborhoods...

I am sorry, but I have seen a lot of this lately and I guess I a just getting grouchy on my meds... But were are not out on the Crusades to convert the world here. I am glade we have so many passionate hunters out there, but enough is enough...

My theory professor in college stated that he had to be careful with his verb-age. Like all the other arts, music has its “rules” for part writing for each century giving the cartelistic of each genera. When ever my Prof made a statement of, “they didn’t use this,” or “this wasn’t in place yet,” he always had “A” student find an exception to the rule in the library that made the Prof eat his words. So that goes back to how anal do you want to be???

This also reminds me of the time I shot a doe with a 22-250. I didn’t do it just to say it could be done, I really wasn’t expecting a deer to come out while I was varmint hunting. But the flip side to that coin is that I shot the deer in the head at the base of the neck.




Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: TCTex.] #108724 05/14/2012 12:49 PM
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cfish2 Offline
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Well said TCTex! Couldn't agree more.


Life Member NAHC
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Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: cfish2] #108726 05/14/2012 12:52 PM
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Whitworth Offline
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 Originally Posted By: cfish2
Well said TCTex! Couldn't agree more.


Are you two sharing his meds?


Oh, and was the dead horse shot with a .41 Magnum or a .44 Special? Cast or jacketed? Standard or magnum primers? These are important details!!


Max Prasac

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BIG IRON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6aXjMH5C30

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: taurus41] #108728 05/14/2012 1:09 PM
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 Originally Posted By: taurus41
Just curious if anyone out there would suggest or has experience dropping an elk with a .41 magnum. If so what bullet/load? Currently I load a 210 grain sierra jhc @ 1500 fps. would this do the job on an elk under 100 yards?? thanks for any replies.


The Sierra 210 JHC is a hard bullet designed for penetration and does not over expand. The 210 JHC will work very well on Elk in my experience and opinion

Personally I prefer a wide meplat hard cast, but I would not be afraid to use the 210 JHC

Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: jwp475] #108787 05/15/2012 4:17 AM
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Tex;

I think most of us get it. In fact my opening line was about "beating a dead horse:"

QUOTE: "My point is, kind of like beating a dead horse, these discussions are endless." END QUOTE



Gregg








Re: .41 mag for elk? [Re: Gregg Richter] #108860 05/16/2012 5:15 PM
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Fair enough my friend


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb
Benjamin Franklin
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