The article on the main page about the monster elk got me to thinking. I don't have a problem with guided hunts and I hope to make it to africa and Alaska one year but do you think that it's starting to get out of hand and similiar to europe where only the rich will be able to hunt the best animals or possibly eventually be the only ones to hunt at all? Do you think when it comes to record books that not only should animals not come out of high fence but only off public land and maybe even have a seperate category for the do it yourselfers like most of us. Again I don't have a problem with guys more fortunate than me that can afford the big dollar hunts but I don't like the ones who's arrogance gives the hunting community a black eye, and I don't have a problem with high fence hunting since for some of us it is the only time we will ever be able to hunt many of these animals but I also don't consider them a trophy in the same way I do a bull or buck I worked my butt off to shoot while avoiding a dozen other hunters. So what do you guys think? One last thing I think we all agree on and that's I wish B&C would do away with net scores and also set up a seperate classification for handguns just like for archery.

You have a very good point Rod! It is one of the many reasons I joined the NRA. If we don’t do something to keep our heritage and traditions no one else will.



I have often wondered the same thing. How could “WE” even start one?

I do see hunting heading in that direction. Many landowners that used to allow people to hunt their land now only allow access for a high fee. I would like to see B&C and P&Y do away with the hunters name and just recognize a magnificent animal. Too many people get wrapped up in getting a trophy rather than enjoying the experience and remembering why they began hunting to begin with. I am not against trophy hunting or holding out for a bigger animal, but nothing ticks me off more than seeing a guy shoot an animal on a hunting show and then say they are disappointed with it. I have shot does on some of my most memoriable hunts and wouldn't have it any other way.

Rod, I hope it doesn't come to that. 90% of my hunting is on Public Land, and as many know, it's a different world...I do have some private land access and I've got to say, it's nice being away from the crowd. I would love to hunt many other species of animals in NA but, due to the cost, I've come to live with the fact that I probably never will.I would like to see "handgun record book" (not that I would have any entries),just to recognize the the "class of hunter" and difficulty of killing an animal the "way we do it"...maybe we can start our own, Jackie Bushman did....LOL...KRal

Rod,

Unfortunately some of those monsters that we drool over only exist because of intense herd management, season-long nutrition, etc and other components that cost $$$. Whether you invest the time and effort or money, or the outfitter does is a separate thing altogether. Public land aside, how do you differentiate the hunter traveling out of state to hunt an outfitters' concession (unguided), access to your neighbor's property, or from a hunter hunting their own property (leased or owned)?

I rarely hunt on public land in my area from a safety perspective, because I like to know who I'm hunting with, and where the other hunters are located. That being said, I have hunted public ground in the West and in the Southeast, on a DIY-basis. The majority of the time I hunt small private land tracts or leases in my area, that I've obtained through lease payment, asking permission, or just a Christmas ham. However, I hunt there for a piece of mind, not a piece of the record books. From your point of view, should animals killed on a family farm be included in the books, should they qualify? Or what about a group of guys that join together as a hunt club to lease a tract to manage as they see fit? I know that I have to factor that expense in to my hunt budget every year, and if it means less "toys" or prioritizing my expenses, so be it. Fortunately, my leased properties are extremely reasonable! The trophy quality is not at all different from surrounding lands, but I can assume that when I want to go hunt my favorite oak flat or food plot, I'm the only one hunting it.

I hope that the biggest and the best aren't taken by only those that can afford it - and certainly wish that the bull in the article was taken by an archer or primitive hunter that had drawn a tag to that game zone. But I celebrate all of those who choose to hunt by legal means, and Lord knows we'll need this hunters' money versus those who want to take our rights away from us!

Just food for thought...

If you were to come out to the west unless you know someone you'll almost never get permission to hunt private land, the cattle ranches have mostly gone to lease hunting so unless you have deep pockets your out of luck. I have no problem with anyone hunting in a way that is legal but as it is with alot of things in this country the costs are getting out of hand to where the average guy can't afford to hunt the prized areas anymore. I don't know about other states but here in Oregon alot of the ranches have been bought by out of state investors or corporations that don't care about anything except raping the land and wildlife for a profit and when it quits producing they will off load it. I could tell you alot of stories about how out of line some of the places out here are but I'll hold it to two. There is a ranch in central oregon that charges by the day to hunt elk I've been told that the fee is 1500.00-2500.00 a day. I stopped one day on my way back from hunting to see a bunch of guys on 4 wheelers herding elk back away from crossing the fence on to public land back on to the ranch property and to top that off some guy in the back of a pick up stuck a bull with an arrow when they went back by him. I call the state police but they said although they had repeated complaints against this ranch unless they saw it they couldn't do anything. This same ranch landlocks a piece of blm land and friend of mine shot and elk on top of a butte and the elk ran down the hill side and piled up with in yards of the ranches fence. My friend who is a state cop asked if he could recover the animal through the ranch rather than haul it back up the hillside and they told him for a 1000.00 dollars he could. They were obviously within their rights but that is the mentality of alot of the people. The other incident happened to me directly, I was hunting the badlands in central oregon and cut bull tracks, after a bit an airplane flew over at about a thousand feet or so and after it passed me it circled back around and buzzed me at roughly 100 feet. I couldn't figure out what was going on until I move about 75 yds further through the junipers and I found a piss spot and tracks from a startled bull, they had deliberately spooked the bull. I found out from another hunter in the area that I wasn't the first, the guy owned the ranch next to where I was hunting and he was spooking the animals on public land and trying to push them on to his property where he charges to hunt them. I again called the state police and they said I couldn't prove malicious intent or that he was deliberately harrassing wildlife. The east and west are different as night and day and I realize where your at there is nowhere near the amount of public land that we have out here and if I were you and had access I'd hunt private land too. I'm not saying all lease or fee operations are as bad as the two I mentioned but it's enough to make me suspicious of all of them as well as resentfull towards those that do business with them.

I tend to agree with you, Rod. Places I've hunted for 30-40yrs are now off limits unless I want to fork over $$$. It's really becoming an issue in my part of the state.

Here in middle Tennessee, my property borders 1,600 acres of woods owned by a paper company from out west. Up until 2 years ago, anyone could get a permit to hunt it for $35.00, or to hunt any of the other several-thousand-acre tracts also owned by the same folks in the same area. Now that one 1600 tract is leased by a "hunting club" of 7 or 8 wealthy fellows from the Nashville area, and last I checked it was 750.00 a year for dues to become a member of the hunting club in order to hunt that land. I can hunt my own 10 acres, find a friend with a farm that will let me hunt, hunt public land which is now becoming full of displaced hunters or just forget it. And I don't want to forget it.

I don't have anything against high-fence hunting as a rule. There are some situations that are more sporting than others certainly. But keep one other thing in mind that I bet many of us never consider. What would that land be used for if there wasn't a high-fence hunting operation on it?

Land will naturally elevate itself to the highest and best use over time. I'm at the Dallas Safari Club convention and I was a by stander in a conversation today about and elk someone shot in New Mexico on a high-fence ranch. The bull was enoromous and very massive. The figure that was thrown out was $125,000 to shoot that bull. I don't know if that was right or not but it doesn't matter for this discussion. So what kind of operation on that land could bring in even $100K not counting the expenses of either operation? Maybe it would be strip mining or drilling for natual gas or maybe a new housing development or strip mall? What about the environmental impact of that and the effect on hunting?

I don't know what the answer is but this issue has more sides to it than we might like to think.

As far as a handgunners record book. SCI has kept track of that sort of thing for the usual fees. Others have considered it at times but the concensus seems to be that only a select few would have entries in the book. I've seen the listings for certain species from SCI as they relate to handgun hunters and I don't think they have enough to publish a book. One problem you would have would be getting organized and getting participants. Lots of folks just don't care about record books and I sort of fall into that category. I think it's worthwhile from a historical and natual history perspective but beyond that I think a lot of egos need to be put into check.

I agree Gary but I guess another way of looking at it is it seems like greed is taking over. I have hunted high fence and didn't have a problem with it or the cost (which was extremely reasonable compared to the #'s we are throwing around)but alot of these places are targeting the top tear financially in this country which is their right but I look at like I do the gas companies, they have a right to make a profit but an obscene profit torques me.

I don't disagree just presenting other sides of the issue. As long as there are people willing to pay those obscene prices the practice will continue. Such is capitalism.

I agree with the capitalism aspect for private land owners and ranchers. The various government wildlife agencies throughout the country are also getting a taste of the money to be had and increasing their prices too. They have increased non-resident licenses to the point that even self guided public land hunts are getting to be out of reach for many people. I understand that the auctioned tags going for six figures generate a lot of revenue, but IMO it sets a bad precedent.

One thing I like in Montana is their Super Tag Lottery. Both residents and non-residents can buy unlimited chances at a license for $5 each. The tags include antelope, bighorn sheep, bison, deer, elk, moose, mtn goat and mtn lion. If drawn you can hunt in any district with an open season for that species. The proceeds from this go to improve public hunting access and help with FWP enforcement efforts. This is the approach the government agencies should take rather than catering to one or two hunters with deep pockets.

Well here in eastern NC land has gone crazy.A few years ago some of Dolly's kinfolk killed a black bear weighing in at 880lbs.Since then land leases has skyrocketed mostly towards the coastal bay ares.They come from all over.I use to bear hunt extensively with hounds,and was put out because of financial ablity.One 1600 acre tract is now leased for 40,000.I know this because I use to have this lease for 8000.I do not blame the land owner for getting all he can,I do not blame the new hunter for buying prime property to hunt the species he desires.I just consider it bad luck.But like most things I have seen when the easy,dumb,or innocent of a species has been taken and the hunting becomes difficult most will move on.Years ago when coon furs brought 20-40 bucks everyone had a hound.When the coon were almost wiped out and there was no money to be made only a few remained.Like anything I have seen those who persevere will win in the long run.

The Adirondack State Park in up state NY is over 6,000,000 acres in size. Thats a lot by even western standards. Yet the hunting is hard. Very hard. Most of it is old growth forest which supports less wild life. That means they're spread further too. For big game it's black bear & deer. We have moose but there hasn't been a season since before I was born. The land leases are getting higher & taken up by down state trash. Those easterners the rest of you don't like. Here we can't stand the down staters. Our ENCON (Environmental Conservation) has mismanaged forever. Like only a liberal dump like NY can. The extreme hunt for $$$ is just starting here only because the trophy potential isn't as great as out west. It will catch up though.
You should have shot at that plane buzzing the elk. No loss as far as I'm concerned. Might have been more satisfying too!

We are having the same problem with the old growth stands, they stopped the logging back in the 80's because of the spotted owl and the top trophy blacktail areas that used to be on public land are now dropping in animal density and the deer are dropping off the mountains into the farm land and ending up on private property where outfitters hold the leases. We are also having a problem with something called hair loss syndrome and it's caused by an aisian louse but it only seems to affect deer living below 2500 feet which wouldn't have that big of a problem a while back but with the current conditions I described above the deer are moving right into the path of the disease.

Some do put in more time and effort than others. I put in the time on food plots, stand building, and extra hours at work to pay for it all. Hunting is something I work at year round, we have a place in North Missouri and it is right next to public land. In the early fall I hunt the public land with a bow. My best deer to date came from public land. I know some of the hunters I see on public land may be out for thier first time of the year.
Out West we hunt on public land and we hunt right next to outfitters charging hundreds of dollars to people doing the same thing we are.
Out of state tags are getting expensive, twice what we paid when we first went in 94.
Private land animals should be included in the records but not High fence hunts. I know people say they are just as challenging but they never come home empty handed.

Shawn

I have been thinking of takin a trip out west to hunt elk, and would like to do it on my own. Im finding that in most western states you need an outfitters certificate to get your tag. I found out that alot of the outfitters pushed for this so you would not have a choice, you would have to hire them. Also I think that some of the out of state fees are gettting out of reach of the common hunter. I hope that hunting doesn't become the rich person only sport. I have no problems with the top dollar hunts, because if I had the money I would go on them. I don't like hunting in fenced in areas, but that just my personal choice.