Anyone have any suggestions about a pistol barrel in Encore for shooting elk at 400 + yards. What caliber and length? I am prepping for a hunt in Idaho next fall and have two barrels 30 30 and 7 08, but not sure if i can get the right bullet weight for elk at that distance. Let me hear some suggestions thanks.

350 Rem Mag would be my vote.

Good performance in short tubes and 225+ gr bullets are no problem

There is also a large selection of bullets like the Hornady 180SSPB that will expand well at 400+ yard out of that gun.

I would want lkie a 16" full bull

With the extra weight the recoil may not be too bad.

Another fine choice that is a little flatter shooting is the
8-350 mag.

May want to look at Pistol Hunters XP on this site

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1466&limit=recent

400 yards to ???? distance?
280AI is one that comes to mind as well as an 30-06 AI.
I would go with the 280 AI myself, with a 168 or 180 Berger (1-9 twist barrel). When hunting at longer distances drop is not the issue that concerns us but rather the nemesis of the LR hunter is wind drift. A 280 AI will easily get you to 600 yards on elk, if your field shooting skills and wind doping ability are up to the task. The 160 Accubond will work good too, but you do not have the wind advantage like the other two I mentioned. H-4831sc works great with this cartridge. Compare Bullet BC's, their potential muzzle velocity and the amount of wind drift they will have with a 10 mph crosswind-It may be surprising if you haven't done this before. Compare these 2 7mm bullets against other brands/weights and calibers and see what you get. The Extreme line by Hodgdon is my preferred choice for hunting, since it is not temperature sensitive like most other powders. You can get a 100 fps change with some powders from summer to hunting temp changes. This can result in missed or wounded animals. If you use a bi-pod on a Encore or TC do your field shooting and zeroing (after load development is finished) with the bi-pod attached to make sure your zeros do not change, as it can effect you POI. I would use a 16" minimum barrel length and I would also use a good muzzle brake-My favorite is Holland's new Radial baffle brake. Looks similar to his Quick Discharge, but is better.
Well, that some information to get started with anyway.
Good luck and let us know which way you go.

Try stalking closer.

A 400 yard shot on an elk is a tough ethical decison for even an experienced rifleman with an accurate rifle and a perfect rest.

x2

That being said, the 7-08 is capable of getting the job done if it is moving fast enough. This will require a barrel length of at least 16" IMO, or more. In a shorter, 14" or so, barrel you can compensate with a bigger powder charge like Ernie said. The 280 Rem or 284 Win will get you a couple hundred more FPS and can make the difference at 400+ yards.

I prefer to get closer, much closer, but if need be I believe my 284 XP will get the job done.

Stalking closer-I don't have a problem with that.

But I do NOT have a problem with someone shooting further if their gun is set-up correctly and they know how to use it at the distances they may use it at.
Whether that is 400 yards or 700 yards for that matter.

Considering that an elk has approximately a 14"-15" kill zone I personally don't see that as a difficult shot with conditions that are 10mph or less (even with switchy winds) @ 400 yards with a properly set-up rig and the know how to use it.

If I am prone, it is a done deal. At 400 yards (elev 4500) with 10 mph crosswind I have 5.8 inches of drift and 17"/4MOA of drop with a 200 yards zero (7mm Dakota XP). If the wind was 10 mph and it was not a full value wind then the dope adjustment is even less.
Yes, I carry a Kestrel 4000 with me in the field, Swarovski LRF, drop charts, and even a pocket PC loaded with Exbal.

If someone expects to make first shot connections at longer distances they need to have the gear and spend the time practicing to ensure first shot lethal connections.

Even a 6.5-284 with a 130 grain Berger bullet with a MV of 2680 (mild load) only has 8 inches of drift @ 400 yards with a full value 10mph wind. If you are just halfway good at wind doping it is surely in the kill zone.

Lets say you only get 2600 fps with 280 AI using a 169 Berger.
Elk elevations-Conservative 7000 feet, 30 degrees. This load will have 1.75 MOA of wind drift (10mph cross) @ 400 yards.
this is approximately 7.5" of drift. Lets say that our hunter here can shoot 1 MOA groups in field conditions from field positions. That is approximately a 4 inch group @ 400 yards. Lets add some nerves and weariness to the equation and say 7 inch group for 400 yards. So our hunter here has been practicing and he has made a decision to limit himself on wind conditions to-8mph (6" @ 400 yards). Even if the boy does a half-way job of wind doping and only dials or holds 1/2 MOA of wind he has taken 4" out of the actual drift of 6".

So if his shooting group (minus the wind) is a full 3.5 inches somewhere outside of center and then add 2" of wind drift=dead elk.
IF the weapon and the hunter are capable (and have been practicing in the field to distances further than his personal max) I don't have a problem with it.

If the hunter just thinks, hopes, or is even pretty sure he will put one in the vitals-He has no business shooting IMO.

But if you would be shocked if that bullet didn't connect with the vitals you have a green light in my book.

I have seen men miss elk @ 150 yards from a rested position with more than one shot opportunity and they were not physically strained.
FWIW my 3 antelope and mule deer were all under 250 yards last season (one was under 60 yards). I do not have a problem shooting at shorter distances either

I enjoy these kind of discussions.

I know some folks that will get cussing mad if someone talks about making a shot beyond 250 yards with a SP on a big game animal and believe it is unethical and immoral if anyone does it.

My preference is to do load development at 300 yards, but many time I am stuck with 200 yards for convenience sake.
Should other people be looked down upon if they do load development or regularly practice at distances further than other folks maximum distance?

I do not have a problem with people who limit their shots to under 300 or 250 yards. I respect them for setting limits on themselves because of either the gun they use or their capability or a combo of the two put together.
Maybe they just like to keep the distances shorter, just because-I am good with that too.

I do ask that those same folks will show the same respect to the capability of someone elses gun and the person's ability who uses it.

Well said, Ernie!

Ernie, I agree with everything you said. To quote KRal: "well said." I agree with what you said about respect also.

You are obviously very skilled at the long range stuff and you carry the proper weapon and equipment including range finder and bullet drop charts and even a pocket PC with Exbal. I do respect that. I do not doubt that you (or anybody similarly skilled and equipped) can HIT an elk (they are a BIG target) at 400 yards (or 700 yards for that matter.) And in the vitals.

My question is bullet performance out of a handgun at those extended ranges on an animal that size.

Don't hold this against me please...but I have been in the outfitting business for 23 years. I have been in on probably 200 elk hits. Notice I said hits, not kills. I myself have killed around 40 elk, and not all with handguns. Please don't take this as brag, it surely isn't, I state it only to show that I have some real experience in what I am talking about.

An elk can take a bullet in the vitals and still go a very very long way. Elk are tough---and I didn't just read that---I have seen it over and over again in person from up close at 0 yards (zero) and at far away distances and even in between...

Having said that "I agree with everything that you said," especially "IF the weapon and the hunter are capable," I want to stress "the WEAPON being capable" and even more the BULLET being capable of performing at that long range and reduced velocity to put down an animal of that size cleanly the majority of the time. We are not talking about deer here...

I have respect not only for the hunters but also for the animals in that we owe it to not just shoot them in the vitals but to use a correctly designed bullet that will do the proper job at the range we shoot them.

As far as I know you want a bullet that will give good penetration as well as good expansion (unless it is already a large caliber and is already big enough that it doesn't need to expand as in the case of hard cast lead bullets at I believe the accepted minimum of .429 and bigger) BUT elk have big bones and thick hides...which puts an expanding bullet at an immediate disadvantage from the word go....

If there are bullets that will do that job at those long ranges and subsequent lower velocites on an elk with the required accuracy then all other factors being met, please go for it.

And thanks, Ernie, for all the great info, it really makes the shooter realize the variables of what to look for when shooting at the longer ranges. Well done.

I also enjoy these discussions!

Greg,
You are a respected hunter. I would be glad to hunt or shoot with you any day.
You mentioned the one of the aspects, I didn't touch on earlier and I cannot agree more, is the impact velocity of said bullet and whether or not it will perform correctly.
Another thing I failed to mention on elk is that they do not always act like deer when lethally hit. It seems there is times that they just soak up bullets with seemingly no effect, even though they are "Dead Elk Standing/Walking." Even on smaller cows with bullets that performed great and were all in the right place-I always keep sending them until he/she goes down.
Although I have not used them on elk yet (typically used Partitions, Wildcats, Sierra Game Kings, yes, and even some ballistic tips), the Berger's are developing a very good track record on both deer and elk. I am not condoning these bullets for smashing bone though, but for heart/lungs and high shoulder shots they are working very well. Berger surely never designed them for game but they have turned out to be an awesome big game bullets. Now Berger even markets them that way.
Well, there is more, but it is time for bed.
We need more of thees kinds of discussions.

Hi Ernie, My son Joe and I and our families are planning to make a trip to Wyoming (Reno Junction area) probably in the next month or maybe first part of July. Reason is we need to do some more filming for the Handgun Hunting Video I am producing which I was trying to get out by April 30...... OK..........well..... long story short...due to time factors and also a very good MISC. factor which you all will hear about sometime soon...the release date for the video has been extended to August and it will be well worth the wait...

If it will fit both our schedules I would like to meet up with you and say HOWDY and share some gun talk and maybe a prayer or two...and Lord willin' maybe even pop a primer or two or three. I know where there are some good prairie dog towns...

I remember reading here in handgunhunt.com that you will be busy hosting a long range handgun shoot sometime soon but don't recall the dates...

Let's figure this out and try and make it work! Gregg

Late June will likely work.
In fact, I plan to be working on a 2,000 yard prairie dog if all goes as planned around that time.
Home # 307-257-7431
Rich Mertz' (MOA Maximum) is putting on a LR pistol comp the first Thursday-Saturday of June 4-6, just south of Sundance, WY. My son and I will be there as well. We will be shooting at 500, 750, and 1,000 yards.
The other planned comp is in August, where a buddy and I will be shooting in a three day tactical match put on by Dave Lauck (dlsports.com) just North of Gillette-Comp is called The International Tactical Rifleman's Championship (ITRC). We will be using all handguns, whereas everyone else will be using tactical rifles for LR shooting and AR-15's for the mid range shooting. LR will be out to or just beyond 1,000 yards with unknown sized targets at unknown distances.
That is sort of my shooting calender for the summer.
Sorry for the OT here!

ITRC is a roving field course with time limits. In 04 when Steve and I did it, we were trotting from stage to stage since it takes a lot longer to shoot single shot XP's than it does magazine fed bolt rifles and AR-15's

Back to subject at hand:
Reasons why I am shooting large case capacity for caliber cartridges for LR hunting are twofold:
#1 To better deal with the unknown factor in the field-WIND.
#2 To have higher impact velocities so that I am not putting bullets into animals that are in the bottom end of their performance spectrum.

Back to bullets:
A man (rifle hunter) I know well has also had good success with Accubonds both for elk and for African plains game.

About 5 years or so ago Steve, Marc, and I were hunting at our favorite location in SW Colorado when we spotted a small group of cow elk bedded on a North facing slope. I had one of my XP's with me 7.82 Patriot (short action Lazzeroni cartridge) which has a capacity above the 300 WSM. 1-10 twist barrel, shooting 180 grain Sierra Game Kings @ a tad over 2750 fps from the muzzle. Range was around 416 yards. I took a lot of time getting settled in, as I was having a difficult time getting as steady as I wanted (I was still using LER scopes at the time). Once steady (Steve was behind me with my tri-pod mounted Leupold 12x40 Leupold spotting scope. I was shooting prone with a Harris BR bi-pod with a small leather bag under my grip. At the shot, I heard the meat report, but still instantly cycled the bolt for another shot. The cow was still standing, but had moved ever so slightly in position. I sent the 2nd shot-didn't hear a meat report (Had hearing protection on), and sent a 3rd one, and she went down. After quartering/deboning and getting to camp, I was cleaning the hide up more on the following day. I found my 3 exit holes (all spot on) that measured right @ 3.5 inches. On the animal itself, all three bullets performed the way they were made to. I then went to find entrance holes and was very pleased to have 3-shot 2.5 inch group on the hide. I was so please I had the hide tanned and it is on the wall in my reloading room, hide side out. It is more of a trophy than some of my heads to me.
Now, why post this? Several reasons:
#1 if you are going to be shooting game at LR you need to have a spotter with you. With a rifle properly set-up you can spot your own shot and make adjustments quickly, but not so with a handgun.
#2 Pick bullets that will perform on game at the potential impact velocities.
#3 Have a handgun that is close to competition accurate. The further you shoot the larger the diameter of the group will get.
#4 If you do not have a solid shooting platform it is a no go situation. Either you take the time to get steady or don't bother shooting. What if the animal gets away while you are setting up? Well, I guess it wasn't his day to die. I will back up and shoot at a further distance rather than have a unsteady platform to shoot from.
#5 We will intentionally stalk in such a way that we will be shooting from a prone position, if at all possible.

Another reason why I am not a large proponent of break-opens for LR hunting is the barrel/forend relationship-It cannot be free-floated. I know I am stepping on sacred cows here, but will not hunt big game, unless I know all of the idiosyncrasies are worked out. there are a number of ways that people have tried to "skin the cat" so to speak for the barrel/forend relationship. One way I know that one guy has solved pretty well it to have a pillar bedded forend. This is why I prefer bolt rigs or the MOA Maximum for hunting. The fewer gremlins I have to deal with or worry about in the field the better.
There is more to LR hunting than what I have expressed in these short posts, but it is a good start.

Sounds like you're stuck with the 7-08? Bullets designed for expansion and penetration...tough choice, since most are constructed for magnum velocities?
My choice was easy....162-175 gr. anything! Killing Steel Rams at 200-500 yards meant I didn't have to worry about them getting away wounded.
Go with a 35 anything* magnum and bring home the meat!
WT
*: That will burn clean in a 14-16 inch barrel?

Having a gun like Ernie describes does wonders to boost a shooters confidence. There is no more "I'll do my part, hopefully the gun will deliver." It's now "the gun WILL do its part, I had BETTER do mine!"

I never realized how truely accurate a LR handgun can be until I had one built by Kirby Allen of Allen Precision Shooting (APS). He built be a 7mm-270WSM on a Rem XP-100 action. It's had the works done...I mean everything...and it shows on target! At 500yds it will pile 162gr A-Max's into groups less than 2" across. Don't believe me? Ask any of the guys from this years B-n-B shoot...they were witnesses.

BTW...I had this gun built specifically for an elk hunt.

You think it might be able to take an antelope as well?

kenseymore,
Neither one of your cartridges are suitable for 400+ yard elk in my opinion. Not trying to down your equipment, but you need to step up in horsepower.

I still like the 350 Mag with a 225 Sierra BTSP or a 225 Nolser Accubond. That round does very well in short tubes I would think one would get 2500 out of a pistol barrel with the big 225 bullet. Even a 225 Nolser Partition

With a 200 gr Rem factory round and a 200yd zero puts you about 28 low at 400.

Past 500 the round goes sub sonic & would not try a 500 yard shot on an Elk unless I had a real good rest and almost could be assured of a second shot if needed

@300 yds you still have 1700 lbs of energy

I know this has been both beaten and resolved already but I truly think that all parties are saying the same thing. Know your own limitations. I will not shoot a deer with a handgun past 200yds right now just because I can’t practice any farther than that. I don’t think I would shoot anything with a rifle past 300, but again that is just me. When someone like Mr. Ernie shoots Prairie Rats at 1500+ it make shooting deer at 500+ a little easier. LOL

PS, When I get done with this tour in the Navy I still want to take you up on your offer Mr. Ernie. Shooting LR is one skill I want to get more aquatinted with.

TC,
You are correct, Gregg and I are on the same page.
Let me know when you are ready to head North.

All of the elk I have killed have been with 6.5's (120 grain), 7mm (140 & 200 grain), and 30 caliber (150 & 180 grain). Most were with a 284 Winchester XP using 140 grain Partitions. Proper Bullet+Proper Placement=Dead Elk

Some bullets go to pot (accuracy wise), not only when going sub-sonic, but also in the transonic phase (couple 100 fps before reaching sub-sonic).
Only way you can know for sure is to shoot them at that distance.

this was one of the best threads on this site in a long, long time!! where did they go?

By the way-I saw DanB shoot that group as I was his spotter and I saw each shot hit through my Zeiss spotting scope. We didn't have a tape measure, but the 3 shot group was inside of 2 1/2" at 500 yards right at 3 O'clock on the target. I mentioned where the group was and he made the adjustment and put a round exactly dead-center on the plate. His gun flat out shoot--he just can't stay on a horse!!!

Is that a "sore" topic for Dan?

Since we are talking about 400+ elk, how many here have killed a elk @ 400 yards or over with a specialty handgun?
Maybe 350 yards or over if needed.

Also please list cartridge(s), MV, and what bullet you used and how the bullet(s) performed.

Thanks!

The more real world data we can get from the specialty pistol hunting the better off we are as a group.

I haven’t had the opportunity… YET… but I do have a 17.5in 375 H&H AI barrel that I am playing around with loading 270gr Hornady’s. When I can go, that is what I am going to take. My back up is going to be my 17.5in 270Win shooting 130 SP @ 2800 FPS. I know this is inertly answering your question, but I bought these barrels particularly for hunting larger game.

Best part is that after a custom barrel, an expensive scope, months of practice, and tons of ammo, you'll probably kill your elk at 80 yards

It never fails!!!

That sure happens sometimes, but at least you are out there completely prepared.

Well, I haven't had anyone post on 350 yard plus kills on elk with a SP, so let's move it down to 300+ yards. Steve was with me on all of these shots as well

301 yards, very large cow: 7.82 Patriot XP. 150 NBT with a MV of just over 3000 fps-1 shot kill lungs, no recover of bullet and a good sized exit wound. Impact velocity around 2516. Animal went maybe 30 yards.

353 yards medium sized bull, bedded down, 284 Win XP, 140 Partition, mv 2750-one shot kill, impact vel. 2219 fps-lungs, bullet found on far side just under skin-animal went 6-10 feet.

Another big cow (range between 300-375 yards-I really can't remember for sure

maybe Steve remembers better) 7.82 Patriot 180 grin SGK (2750) 1 shot kill-lungs, impact vel.2250-2350), nice exit wound

Small cow range 416 yards (impact vel 2210), same load as with last large cow. All 3-Lung shots that measured under 3" on the hide with a 3-shot exit wound=dead elk standing (good expansion and I still have the hide-tanned it) pattern on the hide of 3.5 inches. 2nd & third round were pretty much not doing a whole lot more damage since they were so close.

medium sized bull (284 Win XP, 140 NBT's MV 2750), impact vel 2155. 3-lung shots impacting under 4-5 inches of each other, but quartering toward me-no exits but it totally disastrous to the vitals. This bull had been hit earlier so bad he couldn't move, even though the herd around him took off like a scalded dog.

Same bull @ 547 yards (1946 fps impact vel-Same gun but with 140 grain Nosler Partition) 1-shot just shot behind the lungs, but bull couldn't move, mis-doped the wind (never used partitions after this and I was pushing the performance of the cartridge to far. Bullet still performed well and was found just underneath of the hide on the far side. Crazy story, but quickly, came late because of a death in the family and switched ammo in the field because of lack of primary ammo. yes, I had checked the impact points of both loads and they were different, but wrote down the difference if Murphy decided to visit. I also had the drop chart for both rounds with me. These were my only two loads for this gun.

cow elk 666 yards, 7mm Dakota, 200 grain wildcat bullet (MV 2705, impact vel 2160 (2 shots) cow was bedded at 1st shot, barely stood up and I sent the 2nd just as Steve told me not to shoot the 2nd one, as she was going back down (high shoulder shot and a lung shot), but I keep shooting till they go down.
bullets not recovered.

All of the rest of my elk have been at shorter distances.
Who is next?

Ernie, I definently don't want you shoot'n at me...LOL....that's some awesome shoot'n!!! But, that's what practice does to a shooter.

Nice shootin Ernie I am with KRal,I don't want you shooting at me.

I darn well hope so!!



Thanks for the pat on the back...and some good natured ribbing!!



As a matter for fact...yes! My right knee still aches occassionally.

For elk kills......I only have two, none with a SP. One bow kill at 40yds, animal went 15 yds and piled up. The other was a 30-06AI rifle w/ 165gr Nosler SB's (MV of 2950) at 348yds...three shots, all lungs in a 9" groups from a sitting position. Acted like it was never hit till the last round went high lung/shoulder and dropped it.

Dan,
I do not worry about you (or folks like you) shooting at longer distances, because you have been shooting at those distances and have a sense of what your SP and you are capable of doing in the field.

To all,
One of the best things you can do, regardless of the distances you intend to hunt at is to get out and practice from field conditions/field positions in high wind. Guess the wind before you get your wind meter out, then check it to see how close you are.
I know this may be hard for some to do, but it is real beneficial. This separates the men from the boys, because it is easy to find other thing to do in bad conditions.
It will really let you see where you are at (proficiency) in difficult conditions. If you are more likely to hunt in bitter cold or in rain, then practice in those conditions as well-I doubt if you care going to be as precise as you were shooting off of the bench, well rested, 70 degrees with a light breeze blowing.
Put up targets that do not have dots or bulls-eyes (aiming points), as I doubt the game animal will have that aiming point unless they have been truly cursed with an odd birthmark.
Get back from your shooting position 20 yards or so with all of your gear on you and see how fast you can get set-up and make a shot under pressure. If you have a friend with you have him time you or do things to put you under pressure.

The shot itself may not be unethical; what’s unethical is what I've seen happen after the shot. A lot of us use the accuracy and technology of our sport to overcome out lack of physical abilities. Anyone one who has taken a lot of game knows that animals behave differently when hit. At 400 yards you don’t have the benefit of watching the subtle tale tail signs that an animal has been fatally or worse injured. If you look at the pictures on the bragging board you’ll see a lot of my fellow hunters are lazy, overweight or out of shape. They’d have a hard time walking 200 yards to a tree stand where they need help climbing to where they sit all day behind a heater. Some of us don’t have the physical ability (out of shape, disabled…) to walk over and through the terrain we hunt in here in the west. Even to see if they connected or think they connected (or believe and rationalized the missed) a 400 yards across the canyons I hunt here in the west can mean an hours trek….just to see if I hit or missed. Trust me, I’ve found enough dead and unclaimed animals while picking up sheds in the spring to know that hunters hit game they never recover. Unless the shooter has the physical ability and not just the benchrest ability to follow up a shot he or she should pass.

No Ernie, I agree it can be done and fairly easily, it just probably shouldn’t be. I’ve been lucky enough to have hunted the seven western states, mostly in the drier areas and deserts. A 8-10,000 acre ranch is the norm for my properties, public land can be hundreds of thousands. I just don’t think a lot of guys in the east can get their heads around that much area. I’ve also hunted NC, FL and TX. Hunting wild and free ranging Elk in the west is not like taking a whitetail from a stand.

Bill in OR

Bill, I totally agree that if you are going to take a shot at an animal then you must also be comitted to doing whatever you can to track it if needed.
Honestly, I am only willing to hunt with a relatively small number of people in the mountains, for some of the reasons you mention. Steve and I have takes people up only for it to be a bad and yes at times a potentially dangerous for them.

One thing I have noticed about LR hunting, is that since the animals are not typically spooked or on alert before the shot, they act calmer when hit.

I've only taken 11 elk, none with a handgun. They can be a big animal and CAN be hard to put down. That said my largest, a nice 6x6, was taken with a 7x57 Mauser Ruger #1 single shot. The rest were taken with 308's and 30-06's, only one with a magnum (7mm Rem Mag). Power isn't as much an issue as bullet placement. My longest shot, 300 yards. Shortest about 80 yards. I had to hit the 6x6 four times with the 7x57, he was dead with the first but just wouldn't fall over. My thinking is to keep shooting until they stop moving. All the rest were one shot kills (one did need a finisher with a pistol, he was double lunged and was suffering)).

Anyway, all I can say is don't take the shot unless your willing and able to follow up an ensure that it was a hit or a miss. I'm not opposed to some long shots, I've taken antelope with my Contender at 307 and 318 yards but I could watch the animal for a mile if I needed (both one shot kills, the last one ran about 50 yards). I wouldn't take that kind of shot at an elk in heavy brush or across a canyon that I would have trouble crossing.

Great post Ernie!

Bill in OR

Shot placement is so important!
Typically, I hunt elk in more open areas (I prefer Spot-N-Stalk), so being able to see animals after they are hit, if they move at all has not been a problem for us.

I ran the ballistics awhile back on Ernie's pistol that he used for big game (Puff, as he so eloquently named it). Using the Wildcat 7mm 200 gr. ultra-low-drag big game bullet with a BC of .775, even at the reduced velocities of his pistol load it still overtakes 180 Accubond when fired at normal rifle velocities from a 300 Mag. beyond about 300 yds. for both trajectory and energy. It beats it right out the muzzle for windage. That kinda' performance is awesome. I've never seen Ernie have to take a second shot, although he has done so. I remember a 400+ yd. cow elk that he hit 3 times with a 180gr. 30 cal. Gameking across a deep valley. The bullets all went into <3" at that range. Shot was set up for both shooter and spotter as all long shots should be, IMO.

There are some pretty amazing SP's (and bullets) being made these days that will allow for longer-range big game shooting, IFIFIF the shooter completes his homework. I call it sort of a college course in longer-range shooting.

Last week was Rich Mertz's (MOA Corp.) LR handgun comp.
This is with two different SP's: 15" 6x47 Lapua (107 SMK's @ 2625) and a 18" 6.5-284 (140 Berger @ 2700 fps). I shot four 5-shot groups (with the exception of the one mentioned below) for record score with each handgun-Total of 8 5-shot groups at each distance.

Here are my group sizes at 500 yards. I checked them quickly with a yardstick quickly this morning-Rich has the exacts and will post them on his site in the future.
Atmospheric conditions changed throughout the match and will be reflective in the group sizes.
5 3/4", 5 1/2", 6", 2 1/2", 6 1/2 inches, 8 1/2"
4 shot group for shoot-off in production class 4 1/2 inches with three of those shots in 1 1/4". Sure wish I had fired the fifth shot there, cost me first place

.
5-shot group for the shoot-off in heavy gun 3 5/8 inch group @ 500 yards.
Both of these barrels are McGowen's that have just recently been developed.
Point being that the average of the groups is right at MOA accuracy. One MOA @ 500 yards is approximately 5 inches. Also, at 750 yards I averaged either 1 1/8 - 1 1/4 MOA at 750 yards for 8 groups with the same two handguns.
Here are those numbers:
Here are the 5-shot 750 yard group sizes in inches:
9.5, 8, 10.5, 9.5 (6-shots 14" -not sure if this was a crossfire from someone else), 8.25, 5, 8.25, 9.85.
On seven of these groups there were three shots clusters that were from just under 2 inches to 4.25 inches.
I averaged somewhere around a 8.6 inch group for eight 5-shot groups which is close to 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 MOA @ 750 yards.

The smaller MOA is harder to shoot than the heavier XP whether it be on the bench or in the field.

Connecting these numbers into hunting, I would be using higher BC bullets (or ones equal) and MV's that are as fast as these rigs if not faster, using a larger caliber.
Also, I would be shooting 2-3 shot groups in hunting conditions.
It is much easier to shoot a smaller two or three shot group than a 5-shot one. For hunting purposes, it is rare to have to shoot five times at LR at elk (but it can happen).
This is an example of what SP's are capable of at longer distances.

Great shooting Ernie!!

Dale,
Thank You!
I confess I am pleased with my consistency of shooting at 500 & 750 yards last week, but the main reason I shared this is to let folks know that LR shooting (and hunting if you so desired) is not for the elite. It is not rocket science or impossible to do. I am not the best LR shooter around. LR shooting is not about natural talent, but rather a set of skills that can be learned and then improved upon. As one friend said about another LR shooter, "When I first met him he couldn't hit dirt!" That man is one of the better LR SP shooters today-He lives in Nebraska currently.
So if developing skills at longer distances is your desire, take comfort, you can do it with the proper info, gear and practice.
E

X2, That's some Awesome shooting, Ernie.

Let me add another group size to the equation.
My 15 year old Erik, also shot at Mertz's comp last week and he turned in a winning group @ 1,000 yards of 8 3/8 inches with four of those shots measuring just below 3 inches-That is right, a four shot group under 3 inches in diameter.
I am very proud of my son!!!

Hopefully, these posts explain why I get weary (irritated) when some so-called expert, gun-maker, writer, hunter, etc., tells me, makes a post or writes some article and makes blatant or wide sweeping comments that any one who uses a specialty handgun on big game past 200 yards, 250 yards, or maybe a 300 yard shot is unethical and irresponsible, possibly combined with other expletives.

I have no doubt that some people should limit themselves to short ranges if they choose not to take the time to prepare themselves and their handgun(s).

But do not let the so called "experts" determine for you what your capabilities and the capabilities of your handguns are.

You need to determine your max range(s)based on your field practice in varying conditions.

You are the one that will have to live with the shot.

If you are not convinced you will make a lethal first shot, do not pull the trigger.

Then, go out and have a great time hunting whether you shoot big game at 50 yards or 500 yards.

Well said Ernie

I recently contacted Berger and asked them what was their minimum impact velocity for their hunting VLD's.
They said 1,800 fps approximately. In other words you could go some below that. I would rather err on the side of caution and ensure good bullet performance.
This is the kind of data we need to get from bullet manufacturers.
One can have the ability to out shoot (distance wise) the ability of the bullet to perform well, if the distance shot means the impact velocity is below the bullets ability to do its job like it was designed.

August 21-23 I will be in a2-man team, 3-day tactical competition, called the International Tactical Rifleman's Championship (ITRC). On two of the three days My partner and I will be shooting in roving field courses, where I will be shooting at steel targets of unknown size and distance from 300-1000 yards (mostly 300-600 yards). All shooting will be from the prone position and we are required to carry all of our own gear and we are going up and down hills from stage to stage, plus being a under time constraints to finish the course. Misses take away points and hits add points. I will put about 150 rounds down-range on each course. This will be good practice for LR hunting. We will be shooting angles, across canyons, dealing with wind from multiple directions, and everything about the course of fire is unknown-Sounds like hunting

I plan to use my McCree stocked XP-100 chambered in 6.5-284 (McGowen barrel), with a first focal plane Leupold Mark 4 6.5-284 with Holland's ART reticle. The Mid-range handgun (partner will be using) is a Rock River AR handgun with a 16" barrel (flat-top upper) with a Leupold VX-3 3.5-10 with Holland's ART reticle. He will have shots from 100-500 yards with most of his being from 100-350 yards-prone shooting as well.
We will be an all handgun team. This is the second time anyone has ever competing in the ITRC with handguns only. First time was back in 04 when Steve and I did with two center-grip XP-100's.
One of the three days will be handgun/carbine day (high volume day) were we have been told to have 1,000 rounds ready for each weapon. Wayne will use the Rock River AR Handgun and I will use a Springfield Armory 1911 (tricked) or H&K USP--Both are in 45 ACP non-ported and fixed sights.
This 3-day course is set-up to break people and their weapons down. Very similar in some ways to what can happen on a hard elk hunt. If something breaks down you are out of luck-Again a lot like hunting in the mountains. For this very reason a lot of 3-gun competitors shy away from this match.
http://www.dlsports.com/npage7a.html
If you look on the website you can also find pics from 2004 and Steve and I will be in a couple of them. Back in 04 was also the first time I ever flew in a chopper and of all things I was shooting out of it too

I personally would say to find a better guide that could get you closer. If need be a 6.5-284 with atleast a 129gr. boat tail bullet. The sectional density of a 6.5 bullet pretty much smashes all other bullet/calliber combos of the same weight. I hav found even at a relatively low velocity the Sierra 140 Spbt hits like the hammer of Thor.

The problem with distance shooting on game most people don't take into account is wind. Even a light 10 to 15 mph wind could mean the difference between a mortal wound and a lost animal.

I would prefer you didn't come here and try it. But if you must try to get it down to 250 please.

Thanks

Ernie, GOOD LUCK to you guys !!!!

Don't take that the wrong way. I encourage you to come here and hunt these elk. I think everyone should try it atleast once. I just know how it feels for me to ride up on a bunch of elk in the winter ground and find two or three or more standing there with pussy bleeding wounds or a front leg just hanging by the skin from rifle season and not being able to do a thing about it.

I would say practice with the round you will hunt with no matter how bad it hits the wallet and practice at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 until you can hit a paper plate with the first shot. Remember, no wind flags out on the mountain.

Good Luck and We expect to see a pic of a monster bull after the season.

By the way, where are you going to be hunting?

I don't use a 6.5-284 for elk as a primary.
If I did it would be a 140 grain bullet.
I use my 7mm Dakota. Bullet weights from 160 to 200 grains.
Always practice w/out wind flags.
Starting distance for practice is usually somewhere around 400 yards.

Yes Ernie, if you do a lot of shooting between 0 and 400 then you would probably be good to start at 400 and go out. Most people don't even practice with a rifle at those distances. Like I said, if you can walk out on a mountain ridge and put your first shot in a paper plate day after day at 400+ then you could kill EFFICIENTLY at that didstance. I have shot X's with the first round and second at 1000 with open sights, but not consistently enough to try to kill a game animal that far away.

I did shoot a 6 point bull at roughly 400 with a 6.5X55 140 Sierra at 2570 FPS and it was like a truck fell on his back. I do think they would work great at handgun velocities. Although in such a short barrel the 6.5-284 might be a little too much powder tu burn in that distance. Hate for him to have a forest fire bill.

I have a number of 6.5-284's from 15-18 inches. Velocity will run up to 2775 with 140 grain bullets. Powders I typically use is H-4350 and Hybrid 100V.
my kids have takes a cow and a bull with a 14 inch 260 rem MOA, but the range was around 75-85 yards. Both one shots kills both had total penetration, both lung shots and both used the 120 NBT.
I do practice and shoot at longer ranges with SP's than most do, but it is what I enjoy doing.

Could you pm me those loads? I have a Tikka rechambered to 6.5-284 and I am having trouble getting 2800 with Sierra 142 and a 22" barrel with the H4350. Maybe the 100V would be a little better.I have also tried the 120 NBT with only averages of 2900.

I agree that if you practice for a long time at distance you will pick it up eventually. I know it took me a while to get it and I still get schooled when I miss even the slightest change.

I apreciate the discussion with you and I expect to hear how you do in your competitions and hunting. I won't hunt with a handgun this year because I don't have one and I wouldn't be able to get one soon enough to be practiced up this year, but next year might be a different story.

Take Care,
Rich

To all who load-These are safe in my gun-May not be in yours.
With H-4350 and 142 SMK & 140 A-Max from 49.0 grains to 50.5.
Note: These are long throated and tight-tolerance chambers.
lapua brass, Fed match primers.
50.5 Hybrid 100V-Again tight tolerance chambers and long-throated with 140 Amax's and 140 Bergers.

Thanks Ernie. I might get out to try some this weekend.

Let me add that the 50.5 grain H-4350 load with the 140 A-Max, was for a XP, Krieger barrel, tight-neck chamber and even with the Lapua brass it had ejector marks on the head. It was a scary accurate load and worked at all temps/elevations.
Of all the 6.5-284's I have used this is the only one I loaded that warm with 140's and H-4350.

You are welcome-be wise in your loading.

After finishing the ITRC comp last week, I can't remember missing any of the targets under 1/4 mile with the exception of one (maybe 2) that was concealed behind a ridge in heavy glare-I missed that one plate one out of the two times. This involved two different, where one did not have the time one would typically take while hunting.
I sure did miss some of the further ones though more than one time

This was with the the McRee Stocked XP, chambered in 6.5-284 (140 Berger VLD). Barrel was chambered and fitted @ McGowen as well.
Again, not my first choice for elk, but it does give what a SP is capable of, even in pressured field conditions.

Came home Saturday evening from a doe antelope hunt.
I intentionally went after an uncommon doe.
Got this cool idea from Gregg Richter-Thanks Gregg!
This is the same gun and the load I used for ITRC.
With this particular set-up I do not feel comfortable past 600 yards on game. What I mean by that is that I do not have confidence in this particular barrel, since I have not done repeated drop confirmations at further distances.
Took this doe @ 420 yards from the prone position. 1-shot kill. The 140 Berger did a great job. I originally called a 10 mph full value wind with my Kestrel, then at the last minute held for a 8 mph. Still easily in the kill zone but if I had held for a 10 mph cross wind, I guess it would be as perfect as possible. I felt very comfortable and confident in this shot. The kill zone on a antelope is quite a bit smaller than on a elk and as I have mentioned before the 6.5-284 is not the ideal LR hunting cartridge for elk. I have put close to 600 rounds through this barrel since mid-May.





When my Lilja 7mm Dakota XP barrel was fresh, here is what it would typically do in good conditions @ 600 yards with a first shot attempt and no wind flags:

A couple of days later I shot this elk bedded at 666 yards:

Congrats on a "uncommon doe", Ernie. That's a unique trophy and That was a superb shot!!! You have my utmost respect!

X2

Great trophy…ies !!!

Wow that is great shooting!

Outstanding shot and trophy!

All I can say is, thanks! I'm fairly new to the forum, Great shooting buddy. I get so tired of my non-pistol shooting friends telling me LR pistol shooting is unethical or impossible. They never seem to want to shoot against me with their rifles though.
My longest shot is 440 yards with a M.O.A. .350RM, a long poke with only a 4x Leupold.
Denny

Denny,
Welcome to HH!
I have 2 MOA's myself and Rich Mertz is a personal friend of mine.
I am getting my 7mm Rem Mag. Imp. MOA ready to roll for some LR shooting/hunting in the future.
A good number of people who are against LR hunting are uninformed.
IF you can educate them what it is about or better yet, let them see for themselves by shooting one of your rigs how possible it is, then you may have anew convert or at least someone who is not antagonistic about it.
Congrats on your 440 yard kill!
My longest shot on a deer was with a 4x Leupold.
Again, not the ideal scope, but it worked.
Rich now makes a picatinny base (Weaver style) and he also has a aluminum insert for the forend so one can use a bi-pod more easily with the MOA.
The LR bug has bitten Rich also

Again, Welcome to HH!

Ditto on that, alot of people stress shooting over hunting. I understand that there are people who can make a 400 yd shot, unless you are starving try getting a little bit closer. I think thats why its called hunting and not harvesting.

singleshot

SS,
Definitely not starving, and I doubt anyone here is either

My waist line is proof that dying of starvation is a non-issue for me

First, I will apologize for this lengthy post, since I want to be clear.
Accurate field shooting is required for hunting to be successful and the animal die quickly. I recently responded to a similar question on this site, about whether I missed sidearms and hunting.

Hopefully, my response that I am copying will answer some of your questions. It will explain a little bit about how I am wired. I hunt the way I do because I enjoy it and it brings me satisfaction. Simply, I do it because I want to and I can. It is legal, enjoyable, and challenging.


"The drive is personal preference and personal enjoyment.
Pretty much for some (not all) of the same reasons why you enjoy revolvers.
You choose to hunt with what you prefer and the way you prefer, because that is what you enjoy.
It is also about developing skills and a systems approach in field shooting.
Last year I took all of my animals under 250 yards with SP's and I took and mule deer and a antelope with FA 454 under 50 yards, but I did more practicing at 200 yards.
I bow hunt on occasion and prefer spot-n-stalk antelope or deer hunting with a bow (not ground blinds or tree blinds).
Why? Because it is the way I enjoy hunting with a bow.
My drive is just more out-of-the-box than most, but I take it as seriously or more seriously than most.
I have had people try to get me into black powder hunting, but it just does not trip my trigger. But I know it some hunter's favorite way to hunt, and they approach it with a passion."


I have always wondered at what distance, hunting becomes "harvesting?"
It is discussed a lot, but there is a lot of disparity of what that golden distance is.

IMO-It is usually dependent upon that person's shooting ability or a preconceived distance that they heard from someone they respect (parent, mentor or author).

In fact, when people have posted definitions of hunting from various dictionaries, distance is never mentioned, but a variety of styles is.

If I used my single-shot specialty handguns for ranges under 200 or under 100 yards, or for that matter under 50 yards, it would be boring.
If I have a steady rest 200 yards or under, it is beyond boring.
That is the distance I do a lot of my load development at.
I also do some at 100 too, convenience sake and to avoid condition changes affecting the group.
I have a couple of barrels for this particular switch barrel XP, and load development @ 100 yards with barrels was under .25" with four shot groups. The other barrel shot in the .1's (Both of these barrels were chambered by McGowen Barrel's.
If I have a barrel that will not hold 1/4MOA or better, I will not keep it. In fact, I recently had a Lawton barrel I sent back for a new one because it did not shoot good enough. I have another one of theirs that will shoot groups at 700 yards under 4 inches in good conditions.

When I want to hunt close, I will grab my revolver (under 200 yards)or my bow (under 50 yards).
If I only hunt for the meat, it would be simpler and cheaper for me to go to the grocery store.
I hunt because I want to, and enjoy it.

With all of that being said, I do not encourage people to shoot beyond their ability or their guns ability.

Trouble maker!

Right on Ernie

For me...it's more the ability to know that "I can......" rather that "I have to......" harvest an animal at longer than "normal" ranges.

Two years ago I shot a doe at 462yds w/ a custom XP-100. One week later in the same exact spot, same exact gun I passed on a small buck at the same exact distance...the conditions just were not right. Later that day the same buck crossed the ravine and I shot him at 150yds.

If it's legal and brings you satisfaction, then "more power to you" provided you're willing to put in the time to become proficant. That's the 'rub'. Some buy the 'latest super pooper', pistol or rifle, read a forum or watch a video, then head out to 'kill um as far as I can see um'. Just my $.02

Very true.
That happens for sure.
In fact, it is worse than that.
I have watched people with iron sighted 30-30's try things that made me cringe and sickened me.
Some people are going to shoot beyond their ability regardless of what they are hunting with (rifle, handgun bow, slingshot, etc.).
A term that may be appropriate for that mentality is a "slob hunter."

Now, you are not dealing with a style of hunting, but an attitude toward hunting and game that permeates every form of legal hunting and those that are not.

Excellent posting, Gentlemen!

Rando,
Welcome to HH!
What kind of handguns do you enjoy using?