Well said Ernie

I recently contacted Berger and asked them what was their minimum impact velocity for their hunting VLD's.
They said 1,800 fps approximately. In other words you could go some below that. I would rather err on the side of caution and ensure good bullet performance.
This is the kind of data we need to get from bullet manufacturers.
One can have the ability to out shoot (distance wise) the ability of the bullet to perform well, if the distance shot means the impact velocity is below the bullets ability to do its job like it was designed.

August 21-23 I will be in a2-man team, 3-day tactical competition, called the International Tactical Rifleman's Championship (ITRC). On two of the three days My partner and I will be shooting in roving field courses, where I will be shooting at steel targets of unknown size and distance from 300-1000 yards (mostly 300-600 yards). All shooting will be from the prone position and we are required to carry all of our own gear and we are going up and down hills from stage to stage, plus being a under time constraints to finish the course. Misses take away points and hits add points. I will put about 150 rounds down-range on each course. This will be good practice for LR hunting. We will be shooting angles, across canyons, dealing with wind from multiple directions, and everything about the course of fire is unknown-Sounds like hunting

I plan to use my McCree stocked XP-100 chambered in 6.5-284 (McGowen barrel), with a first focal plane Leupold Mark 4 6.5-284 with Holland's ART reticle. The Mid-range handgun (partner will be using) is a Rock River AR handgun with a 16" barrel (flat-top upper) with a Leupold VX-3 3.5-10 with Holland's ART reticle. He will have shots from 100-500 yards with most of his being from 100-350 yards-prone shooting as well.
We will be an all handgun team. This is the second time anyone has ever competing in the ITRC with handguns only. First time was back in 04 when Steve and I did with two center-grip XP-100's.
One of the three days will be handgun/carbine day (high volume day) were we have been told to have 1,000 rounds ready for each weapon. Wayne will use the Rock River AR Handgun and I will use a Springfield Armory 1911 (tricked) or H&K USP--Both are in 45 ACP non-ported and fixed sights.
This 3-day course is set-up to break people and their weapons down. Very similar in some ways to what can happen on a hard elk hunt. If something breaks down you are out of luck-Again a lot like hunting in the mountains. For this very reason a lot of 3-gun competitors shy away from this match.
http://www.dlsports.com/npage7a.html
If you look on the website you can also find pics from 2004 and Steve and I will be in a couple of them. Back in 04 was also the first time I ever flew in a chopper and of all things I was shooting out of it too

I personally would say to find a better guide that could get you closer. If need be a 6.5-284 with atleast a 129gr. boat tail bullet. The sectional density of a 6.5 bullet pretty much smashes all other bullet/calliber combos of the same weight. I hav found even at a relatively low velocity the Sierra 140 Spbt hits like the hammer of Thor.

The problem with distance shooting on game most people don't take into account is wind. Even a light 10 to 15 mph wind could mean the difference between a mortal wound and a lost animal.

I would prefer you didn't come here and try it. But if you must try to get it down to 250 please.

Thanks

Ernie, GOOD LUCK to you guys !!!!

Don't take that the wrong way. I encourage you to come here and hunt these elk. I think everyone should try it atleast once. I just know how it feels for me to ride up on a bunch of elk in the winter ground and find two or three or more standing there with pussy bleeding wounds or a front leg just hanging by the skin from rifle season and not being able to do a thing about it.

I would say practice with the round you will hunt with no matter how bad it hits the wallet and practice at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 until you can hit a paper plate with the first shot. Remember, no wind flags out on the mountain.

Good Luck and We expect to see a pic of a monster bull after the season.

By the way, where are you going to be hunting?

I don't use a 6.5-284 for elk as a primary.
If I did it would be a 140 grain bullet.
I use my 7mm Dakota. Bullet weights from 160 to 200 grains.
Always practice w/out wind flags.
Starting distance for practice is usually somewhere around 400 yards.

Yes Ernie, if you do a lot of shooting between 0 and 400 then you would probably be good to start at 400 and go out. Most people don't even practice with a rifle at those distances. Like I said, if you can walk out on a mountain ridge and put your first shot in a paper plate day after day at 400+ then you could kill EFFICIENTLY at that didstance. I have shot X's with the first round and second at 1000 with open sights, but not consistently enough to try to kill a game animal that far away.

I did shoot a 6 point bull at roughly 400 with a 6.5X55 140 Sierra at 2570 FPS and it was like a truck fell on his back. I do think they would work great at handgun velocities. Although in such a short barrel the 6.5-284 might be a little too much powder tu burn in that distance. Hate for him to have a forest fire bill.

I have a number of 6.5-284's from 15-18 inches. Velocity will run up to 2775 with 140 grain bullets. Powders I typically use is H-4350 and Hybrid 100V.
my kids have takes a cow and a bull with a 14 inch 260 rem MOA, but the range was around 75-85 yards. Both one shots kills both had total penetration, both lung shots and both used the 120 NBT.
I do practice and shoot at longer ranges with SP's than most do, but it is what I enjoy doing.

Could you pm me those loads? I have a Tikka rechambered to 6.5-284 and I am having trouble getting 2800 with Sierra 142 and a 22" barrel with the H4350. Maybe the 100V would be a little better.I have also tried the 120 NBT with only averages of 2900.

I agree that if you practice for a long time at distance you will pick it up eventually. I know it took me a while to get it and I still get schooled when I miss even the slightest change.

I apreciate the discussion with you and I expect to hear how you do in your competitions and hunting. I won't hunt with a handgun this year because I don't have one and I wouldn't be able to get one soon enough to be practiced up this year, but next year might be a different story.

Take Care,
Rich

To all who load-These are safe in my gun-May not be in yours.
With H-4350 and 142 SMK & 140 A-Max from 49.0 grains to 50.5.
Note: These are long throated and tight-tolerance chambers.
lapua brass, Fed match primers.
50.5 Hybrid 100V-Again tight tolerance chambers and long-throated with 140 Amax's and 140 Bergers.

Thanks Ernie. I might get out to try some this weekend.

Let me add that the 50.5 grain H-4350 load with the 140 A-Max, was for a XP, Krieger barrel, tight-neck chamber and even with the Lapua brass it had ejector marks on the head. It was a scary accurate load and worked at all temps/elevations.
Of all the 6.5-284's I have used this is the only one I loaded that warm with 140's and H-4350.

You are welcome-be wise in your loading.

After finishing the ITRC comp last week, I can't remember missing any of the targets under 1/4 mile with the exception of one (maybe 2) that was concealed behind a ridge in heavy glare-I missed that one plate one out of the two times. This involved two different, where one did not have the time one would typically take while hunting.
I sure did miss some of the further ones though more than one time

This was with the the McRee Stocked XP, chambered in 6.5-284 (140 Berger VLD). Barrel was chambered and fitted @ McGowen as well.
Again, not my first choice for elk, but it does give what a SP is capable of, even in pressured field conditions.

Came home Saturday evening from a doe antelope hunt.
I intentionally went after an uncommon doe.
Got this cool idea from Gregg Richter-Thanks Gregg!
This is the same gun and the load I used for ITRC.
With this particular set-up I do not feel comfortable past 600 yards on game. What I mean by that is that I do not have confidence in this particular barrel, since I have not done repeated drop confirmations at further distances.
Took this doe @ 420 yards from the prone position. 1-shot kill. The 140 Berger did a great job. I originally called a 10 mph full value wind with my Kestrel, then at the last minute held for a 8 mph. Still easily in the kill zone but if I had held for a 10 mph cross wind, I guess it would be as perfect as possible. I felt very comfortable and confident in this shot. The kill zone on a antelope is quite a bit smaller than on a elk and as I have mentioned before the 6.5-284 is not the ideal LR hunting cartridge for elk. I have put close to 600 rounds through this barrel since mid-May.





When my Lilja 7mm Dakota XP barrel was fresh, here is what it would typically do in good conditions @ 600 yards with a first shot attempt and no wind flags:

A couple of days later I shot this elk bedded at 666 yards:

Congrats on a "uncommon doe", Ernie. That's a unique trophy and That was a superb shot!!! You have my utmost respect!

X2

Great trophy…ies !!!

Wow that is great shooting!

Outstanding shot and trophy!

All I can say is, thanks! I'm fairly new to the forum, Great shooting buddy. I get so tired of my non-pistol shooting friends telling me LR pistol shooting is unethical or impossible. They never seem to want to shoot against me with their rifles though.
My longest shot is 440 yards with a M.O.A. .350RM, a long poke with only a 4x Leupold.
Denny

Denny,
Welcome to HH!
I have 2 MOA's myself and Rich Mertz is a personal friend of mine.
I am getting my 7mm Rem Mag. Imp. MOA ready to roll for some LR shooting/hunting in the future.
A good number of people who are against LR hunting are uninformed.
IF you can educate them what it is about or better yet, let them see for themselves by shooting one of your rigs how possible it is, then you may have anew convert or at least someone who is not antagonistic about it.
Congrats on your 440 yard kill!
My longest shot on a deer was with a 4x Leupold.
Again, not the ideal scope, but it worked.
Rich now makes a picatinny base (Weaver style) and he also has a aluminum insert for the forend so one can use a bi-pod more easily with the MOA.
The LR bug has bitten Rich also

Again, Welcome to HH!

Ditto on that, alot of people stress shooting over hunting. I understand that there are people who can make a 400 yd shot, unless you are starving try getting a little bit closer. I think thats why its called hunting and not harvesting.

singleshot

SS,
Definitely not starving, and I doubt anyone here is either

My waist line is proof that dying of starvation is a non-issue for me

First, I will apologize for this lengthy post, since I want to be clear.
Accurate field shooting is required for hunting to be successful and the animal die quickly. I recently responded to a similar question on this site, about whether I missed sidearms and hunting.

Hopefully, my response that I am copying will answer some of your questions. It will explain a little bit about how I am wired. I hunt the way I do because I enjoy it and it brings me satisfaction. Simply, I do it because I want to and I can. It is legal, enjoyable, and challenging.


"The drive is personal preference and personal enjoyment.
Pretty much for some (not all) of the same reasons why you enjoy revolvers.
You choose to hunt with what you prefer and the way you prefer, because that is what you enjoy.
It is also about developing skills and a systems approach in field shooting.
Last year I took all of my animals under 250 yards with SP's and I took and mule deer and a antelope with FA 454 under 50 yards, but I did more practicing at 200 yards.
I bow hunt on occasion and prefer spot-n-stalk antelope or deer hunting with a bow (not ground blinds or tree blinds).
Why? Because it is the way I enjoy hunting with a bow.
My drive is just more out-of-the-box than most, but I take it as seriously or more seriously than most.
I have had people try to get me into black powder hunting, but it just does not trip my trigger. But I know it some hunter's favorite way to hunt, and they approach it with a passion."


I have always wondered at what distance, hunting becomes "harvesting?"
It is discussed a lot, but there is a lot of disparity of what that golden distance is.

IMO-It is usually dependent upon that person's shooting ability or a preconceived distance that they heard from someone they respect (parent, mentor or author).

In fact, when people have posted definitions of hunting from various dictionaries, distance is never mentioned, but a variety of styles is.

If I used my single-shot specialty handguns for ranges under 200 or under 100 yards, or for that matter under 50 yards, it would be boring.
If I have a steady rest 200 yards or under, it is beyond boring.
That is the distance I do a lot of my load development at.
I also do some at 100 too, convenience sake and to avoid condition changes affecting the group.
I have a couple of barrels for this particular switch barrel XP, and load development @ 100 yards with barrels was under .25" with four shot groups. The other barrel shot in the .1's (Both of these barrels were chambered by McGowen Barrel's.
If I have a barrel that will not hold 1/4MOA or better, I will not keep it. In fact, I recently had a Lawton barrel I sent back for a new one because it did not shoot good enough. I have another one of theirs that will shoot groups at 700 yards under 4 inches in good conditions.

When I want to hunt close, I will grab my revolver (under 200 yards)or my bow (under 50 yards).
If I only hunt for the meat, it would be simpler and cheaper for me to go to the grocery store.
I hunt because I want to, and enjoy it.

With all of that being said, I do not encourage people to shoot beyond their ability or their guns ability.

Trouble maker!

Right on Ernie

For me...it's more the ability to know that "I can......" rather that "I have to......" harvest an animal at longer than "normal" ranges.

Two years ago I shot a doe at 462yds w/ a custom XP-100. One week later in the same exact spot, same exact gun I passed on a small buck at the same exact distance...the conditions just were not right. Later that day the same buck crossed the ravine and I shot him at 150yds.

If it's legal and brings you satisfaction, then "more power to you" provided you're willing to put in the time to become proficant. That's the 'rub'. Some buy the 'latest super pooper', pistol or rifle, read a forum or watch a video, then head out to 'kill um as far as I can see um'. Just my $.02

Very true.
That happens for sure.
In fact, it is worse than that.
I have watched people with iron sighted 30-30's try things that made me cringe and sickened me.
Some people are going to shoot beyond their ability regardless of what they are hunting with (rifle, handgun bow, slingshot, etc.).
A term that may be appropriate for that mentality is a "slob hunter."

Now, you are not dealing with a style of hunting, but an attitude toward hunting and game that permeates every form of legal hunting and those that are not.

Excellent posting, Gentlemen!

Rando,
Welcome to HH!
What kind of handguns do you enjoy using?