Ok, for those of you where "money is no object", kindly click the "back" button! All I'll do is honk you off (unintentionally though~!)

At the "end of rant" I added some info on where hunting is or isnt going. Consider it an after thought but one thing lead to another,and I feel it is worth bringing up.

Those of you that know "from whence I speak", enjoy knowing someone else feels the pain!!

I never touched a computer till 1998, nor had seen "the web". Since then, as I'm sure you have as well, I've found it to be TOTALLY irreplacable as far as finding information and quite often the best price of things and MORE often the ONLY place some things can be found.

I have "discovered" and recognized a "DARK SIDE" of the above..for me~!

I dont consider myself to be "new" to reloading. I've loaded varmint rounds from 17 Rem thru the 22s up to 25-06..which I THOUGHT I did successfully until lately.

Upon researching the things I "need" for loading a SP handgun round all I did was reassure myself that either I'm totally STUPID or "ignorance is bliss" sometimes.

Yes, just "how accurate" you want to load needs to be considered.. but WHOM of us doesn't want to do "his (or her) best"? Show any handloader something to make his rounds more closely identical to one another......and he's GOING TO want one. I STARTED reloading for the same reasons everyone else did. "Improved accuracy and less cost".

Completed to the degree accepted by a LOT of people, the LESS COST thingy is up for grabs in MY opinion! Along the way the line between benchrest methods and hunting methods ,if there ever was one, have become BLURRED, to say the least!!

I am ATTEMPTING to get a MOA Max ordered. Some very unfortunate occurances on Rich's end has delayed the process but that is completely understandable from my view point, but...it's given me time to second guess if I REALLY want to wait 5 months for one.

I picked the MOA, DUE TO the accuracy (and strength) it has the rep for. One only feels HE should be doing a bit MORE on HIS part to ensure that the gun DOES give him the accuracy it is noted for.

In that quest, I've run into "opinions" online about "accurate reloading" that tells me, to do it ALL, I'd have as MUCH in the dang reloading equipment as I WILL IN THE GUN.....and I doubt anyone here thinks a MOA is "cheap"!

Concentricity gauge? I've never seen one, let alone USED one. We rolled em on a piece of glass and watched the bullet tip.

Barrel harmonics? What?....I have a background of phyics and math and I don't even WANT to read that.

Neck turning tools. Three way cutters. 300 dollar powder charge weighing scales. Collet dies (custom or otherwise), guys weighing and sorting THE PRIMERS????? Sweet Jesus on the Cross!!

I NEVER sorted my BRASS by weight,(OR bullets OR primers) not ONCE. Brass was trimmed to length, HAND deburred and bullets were seated in standard RCBS (now called "wobble"?) dies as straight as my eyes and hands could set them,I played with distance from (or INTO) the lands and NO rifle I had (or buddy's that I loaded for) shot over 3/4 MOA at 100 yards, most less.

Was I just "lucky" or has this all turned into specifications "needing to be checked" that are zipadydooda short of LUNACY?

IF, repeat IF, I can get the MOA ordered this week, I'm going to go with it. It will be my first and last (old, poor) "custom ordered" firearm. One I wanted to have and use the remainder of my years. Should that happen, I'm going to ask RICH for what DIES to use.....and go back to the way I loaded for years and IF, I have problems, I'm going to bug the SNOT out of all of YOU......HA! Sorry if I have to sound conceited and say I don't think I'll have a lick of problems...without all the new and improved equipment.

If NOT on order? I'm going to say phooey on this and order a Jewell trigger for my XP-100R in 260 Rem, stick with a handgun scope (only because I just CANT bring myself to cut, thread and brake an original barrel of a gun made ONE YEAR) and grin and bear it.

End of Rant.

20 years ago I recall discussing with friends that "hunting was becoming a RICH MAN'S sport". A "newbie" could go out and pick up decent equipment and guns for less than the price of most used cars and "get into" hunting.

NOW? My friends, as much as I hate to say it, between the ever shrinking places TO hunt here, the prices of everything involved, not just the guns themselves, .........that time is here.

Neither of my two boys hunt (ages 20 and 36). None of their friends hunt.

When young and living with me, I tried, they went and had a good time, shot some game, shared some great times with Dad, but when it came time for THEM to foot the bill? Not.

I don't live in a highly populated area, as I've mentioned before. That said I personally know AT LEAST five times the people that STOPPED hunting and shooting, compared to those that started. Pretty much confusing to me since ALL of the areas you CAN get permission TO hunt are WAY over crowded here. I feel it's more that the NUMBER of deer around here has increased to the point where anyone that can pull a trigger hunts them for meat, and that's the ONLY time they shoot. Period.

The local skeet range has maybe a handful (less than 10) shooters there regularly. NONE of them are younger than 30. NONE!
I know THREE guys that still hunt varmints or ANY small game here.

Sorry for the negativity, and I know there is nothing WE (at least not much) can do about it, but the PRICE of hunting, shooting, reloading, etc.....is killing our beloved sport.

I read not long ago that the NUMBER of hunters in the US DECREASES at a rate of over 100,000 per year.....and is escalating. When you considerer that the POPULATION is going the other direction in the extreme, well.......do the math.

Without change, that spells DOOM for hunting within our children's lifetime, my friends.

Before passing away, my Dad told me that "with all the changes in the world I've seen that I don't like, my only regret in going is leaving you kids behind".

Amen, Dad!!!

No offense taken if this is deleted, Gary. It's just me ranting to someone that might care. For sure, few locally do.

You are correct regarding the status of hunting in the US. Many states now have more non-resident hunters than resident. As far as kids go, if dad/grandpa/uncle etc. has no place to hunt, where will the kids go???

It does no good to sit around and complain (been there/done that). What you CAN DO is go shooting or hunting at every opportunity with your friends or kids, and savor the moment. I like to shoot clays during the off-season, and it is hard to find guy's to go with. However, I find a few and enjoy each shoot.

As for how much equipment costs, or which particular "gadgets" you need to add to your loading bench, your budget should take care of that. Remember, although everone want to win the match,YOU are the only one you need to please. If you are not satified by your shooting scores or accuracy, then honestly decide if adding the more expensive gun or "gadgets" to your routine is worth the extra money, or if your ability is the problem.

I have seen the best top-flight guns ($$$)handed over to a novice, who then shot poorly (or worse)than the gun they were already using. There is simply NO replacement for practice if you choose to improve your game!

Steve,
I don't sort my brass or weigh primers-at least not yet.
Most don't need to check concentricity or many of the things you mention.

When it comes to hunting, it boils down to can you shoot your gun accurately enough in field conditions to hit the vitals out to the max distance you have set for yourself.
In reality a SP that is capable of 1 MOA accuracy, will shoot a group just over 5" at 500 yards, if the hunter is capable.
A standard set of Redding dies will get you there most of the time.
For $45 you could send that die to Jim Carstensen JLC and he will convert your full length resizing die and convert it to a bushing neck/full length body die. That allows you to control your neck tension, if you want to do so for a relative low price.
Using a good weapon like the MOA will allow most to shoot under 1" group pretty easily. With using the barrels that Rich typically uses I have shot groups at 100 yards that measured in the .1's, .2's, etc. Pretty easy to shoot under 1" groups.

Don't worry about what others do, as long as you have the basic load skills, and the accuracy you need to put it in the kill zone every-time will have to do more with the user than the gun itself.

There is a lot of precision gear out there for those who want to play that game.

Their goal (sometimes my goal) is different than the majority of hunters.

Last week I helped a church member do load development on his 300 Rem Ultra mag, shooting 180 AB's (97.5 grains of Retumbo and Remmy Mag primers, Remmy brass). Standard Redding dies.
Saturday he had 3-shots @ 100 yards that measured under 1/4". He is 47 years old and it is the best group he has ever shot.
Oh yes, just a 3.5-10x scope.
You can develop good accuracy with good basic equipment.

FWIW-Sweet Jesus is not on the cross!

AMEN! He is risen indeed!

Now SKR you need one of them bang flop watchamacallits,to increase your doodas on your somethinorothers.hahahahahaha There are people, and I have been one myself,that will go buy what ever is praised at the time as the new do it all.In my opinion if you are getting the accuracy you desire,don't mess with what ain't broke.

Now this hunting thing,I was fortunate to be raised by an avid hunter.When I get the opportunity I shoot as much as I can with my son(he lives in another country).But here locally I take kids hunting.Kids whose parents work to much,don't hunt,or not around.Since I began this I have been extremely fortunate to have been with some for their first ever deer,first buck,and helped one get his first ever sitting alone.Hunting may dwindle away but I am doing my part,and that's what I have controll over.

I really like that attitude cottonstalk. I am in the search for some land here in the Old Dominion. Maybe I'll make that my future ministry to young folks: shooting, hunting and fishing.

SKR it's kinda nice to know I'm not the only one feeling the pain.

YES!!

At least the choice to use all that equipment or not is yours to make. It can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it, hunting or bench rest, shooting steel or paper.

As to the hunting; as a rancher said to me when he ask if I was interested in 'leasing' the land I had been hunting (repairing fences, doctoring cattle, fighting fire, as needed) the last 25yrs, 'I'm in the ranching business to make money and leased hunting makes money'. I don't hunt there anymore, and as has been stated that's why a lot of people are no longer hunting.

My personal opinion is that by the time all of my grandkids (9mos. to 17yoa) are out on their own the US will be like Europe and the hunting will be for the 'priviliged' few.

Just my .02.

Personally, I like "New and Improvised". Long tradition of that in my genetics. Makes it more fun anyway.

My background is music and physics and how many ways you can tune them... LOL (Tig and I have had conversations relating a barrel to a bass fiddle string. You might laugh, but there some very good parallelisms!)

I love your enthusiasm and can see you have an interest in learning more by your presence here on the forum. If you have questions just ask... there are people here that will bend over backwards to help you!!

KYODE put it to me the best one time... A nice custom handgun is well worth the effort when it is finely completed, dispite the headaches along the way.

Ps. Jesus is the way the truth and the life...

I am fortunate to live in Texas. However, I grew up in NM, a state with a lot of public land. I ceased to hunt the public land many years ago because of experiences with other "hunters" while hunting there. Later, I owned land in NM (all deeded and clearly posted). I came to "hate" hunting season because I spent much of my time chasing the trespassers who felt that they had the "right" to come on my land & hunt when they pleased. I will state that my experience with most of the "hunters" that I encountered while owning land in NM was that the majority were total "slobs." I felt strongly enough about it that I would not admit to very many people that I liked to hunt. I did not want to classified in the minds of others as a "hunter."

In Texas there is very little public land. Therefore, if you want to hunt here you either buy some land of your own or lease hunting rights from one who owns the land. I see nothing wrong with that. It seems totally logical to me. If I own an asset and you want to use it, you should compensate me. Alternatively, buy your own. Plus, one of the biggest advantages is that you know the other hunters out there & are likely to be associating with those who share your "hunting morals."

Just my $.02.

"Up here" it's called YANKEE "engine ooo itty".

Many thanks to all, for replies AND allowing me to rant a bit.

FYI. Said MOA is officially "on order" today. I want you guys to KNOW that your MOA SHOOT is GONNA DELAY GETTING MY PISTOL!!

I AM going to be the ONLY KID ON THE BLOCK with one here guys! ( Quite possibly SEVERAL blocks of COUNTIES)

Even the DEER will be jealous and want ME to be the one to whack em!

Now for the long LONELY, grass cutting filled summer......waiting.

No one has a bull barrel 6.5x284 MOA to loan me, to help me pass the summer? What a bunch.

That IS a joke for those wondering. LOL

Congrats on your 6.5-284.
If you are in my area you can shoot my 6.5-284 MOA.

SKR--just come to the durn shoot, then u can rant away all you want on steel and have fun too. Sounds like u need to see and enjoy the Sundance landscape...as only a SP shooter can. Yeehaa!

SKR I don't a 6.5 anything but if your ever in Southern Missouri you can drop by and mow the grass.

LOL>.....Ellis......Ive been trying to con everyone HERE into mowing mine!

MOA invited me to the shoot too. I "suggested" he have the pistol done by then and I'd find a way to go. LOL...NOT!

I tore up my back pretty bad over a year ago....just now able to move around at will fairly free of pain. Rejoined the "spa" to get exercise NOT involving the "humped over dang mower" position.

Travel is limited to non-existant due to back, finances and Dewey the Wonder Dog having no where to go but with "Dad".

As one can imagine, "finances" got a bit "strained" and MOST here is throughly honked at yours truly for "wasting money" on ordering a MOA...yeah well....I never claimed to be a brainiac. Maybe I'll make up for it in "money saved" on less meat to buy NEXT year...LOL.

Taking it easy. Eating this elephant one bite at at time.

The gadgetry is what makes this sport fun if you can afford it. If you can't afford it but still have teh basics and good loading practices AND time to do it right you can make it happen. Part of the challenge for me is to do something others tell me can't be done. I only factory TC barrels in my Encore and Contender except for my 375JDJ because I wanted one of JDJ's materpieces. I do nt suffer teh accuracy problems others on this site say exist with TC barrels. I even bought a used, beat up 30 Herrett at a show for $50 bucks cuz the guy said it was inaccurate. after a good cleaning and recrowning, I loaded it with Milek's favorite 125gr bullet and killed a deer. Not it wasn't at 250 yards but I didn't buy it for that. I do have some long range barrels that I take to DanB's SWPA shoot and I have never been embarrased. I will hunt until I die. Yes things like this change, but change is everyday and biological. everything must change. Be adaptive, flexible and keep it simple and have all the fun your time, budget or space will allow! I wished my son hunted but he doesn't. He is a fish-a-holic though so that fills my time with him. Its tough to shoot on Saturday and fish on Sunday or vice versa, but life it tough. In a nutshell--shoot all you can, hunt all you can and YOU DON'T really need all the gadgets. I did break down and buy a chrony! Its teh one gadget I needed.

Well, SKR I feel your pain.

I grew up in a family where my dad didn't hunt he was always too busy, or just got tired of eating game,I don't know which. He grew up with not alot and wild game was sometimes all that was on the table. However my Uncle loved to hunt and I was never shy about asking him if I could tag along, and thankfully he obliged and took me quite often. Me, my uncle and his german shorthair with a bad attitude and worse gas, all cramed into the Chevy Elcamino.

My grandpa was also quite a hunter or maybe just a survivor, growing up when he did, a WW I vet. I loved sitting around listening to my grandfathers stories about all the hunts that he'd been on, and the one thing that still rings in my head, it was sometimes the game, but more often than not, it was the people that he was with that made the stories so interesting. Even during grandads day, he said it was becoming a "rich mans sport", and how, during the war it was so hard finding ammo, but they always managed to find some, and always managed to find game.

I really don't know where I'm headed with this,,, other than to say the lyrics of a certain song "These are the good old days" they may not be to us, but they are to someone.

When I was a kid, I don't remember Christmas commercials on the tv at halloween, but my kids will, it is all they've ever known.

So keep the tradition going, for somwhere out there is a somewhat pudgy, clumsy kid who won't mind slogging through the mud for just one shot at a big snow goose, who knows what kind of memories you'll make. Even if my uncle has been gone for over thirty years, I can still hear his laugh, and smell that damn dog.

KJ

True words, KJ.

I appreciate your sharing. Glad you had your Uncle and that ol dog..and more glad they still walk the fields in your memories.

Got a few of my own yet as well. So hard to find a place to hunt but taking a youngster out like some of the guys do......has to have it's own rewards.

Thought I'd have a grandkid by now to harrass me but...that has not come to pass either.