Looking at using cast for this year deers season in my 44 bisley.
Looking at a 275-300 gr
any thoughts or load recommendations?

In my 44 Bisley, I use a cast 300 gr bullet over a healthy dose of H-110. It's a hammer. And very accurate. Granted, here in Texas, our deer are more like over-sized rabbits, but I intend on using this exact setup next year for Elk. Bottom line, I think you will like it.

-Randy

I like 110
What 300 grain bullet do you use?
Do you get any expansion?

Double Tap Ammo produces a really nice 320 grain WFN that works really well and is very accurate out of my revolvers. I too prefer 296.....

Cast Performance 300 grain WFNGC

Oh and not sure on penetration. I've never found a bullet in an animal. I doubt it though, but at these slower speeds, that's what I like about cast bullets. 'Though and through' penetration and a big hole as is.

You don't say what sixgun you are using but any of the 250-300 gr slugs at 1000 fps or so will handle any deer on the planet with correct shot placement, & for sure you will get complete penetration. Oops, I see you're using a Bisley, great choice!

Dick

The .44 is fantastic for deer with about any cast boolit. The 265 gr RD with 22 gr of 296, 300 to 320 gr LBT's with 21.5 gr of 296.
Lee makes a great 310 gr mold.
These are not max loads but are the most accurate from a Ruger.
One thing Whit, other friends and I do is to use the Fed 150 primer instead of a magnum primer. Mag primers will triple group size because primer pressure will move the boolit out before a good burn is started. Each boolit moving different results in a different powder capacity for each shot.
Most boolits will shoot 1" at 50 yards or less. The little RD will do 3/4" and 1-1/4" at 100 from bags. It is a tumble lube boolit but I use Felix lube on it. I do not like Alox.
Bioman bought a new SBH Hunter, I installed an Ultra Dot on it and he was shooting 1/2" groups at 50 while sighting in using a 330 gr WLNGC boolit that I made a mold for. It uses 21 gr of 296 and I shot a 3 shot group with it at 200 yards that measured 1-5/16".
My boolits are cast from WW metal and water dropped. All are death to deer.
Here is the RD. I was hitting low so I aimed higher for the last shot.

Then my 330 gr at 200 yards during a drop test.

Thats some great shooting Jim,Ive been wondering wether to use cast or 240 gr xtp,both shoot real well out of my sbhh,this will be my first season handgun hunting for deer so being kind of undecided about which to use.Guess eather will work.

Yes Dick, you are correct but I have found the slower boolit needs a tad of expansion. Take it to 1300 or just above and it needs none as long as the meplat is decent. Go higher in velocity and some expansion is then needed again to slow it in the animal and impart more damage.
But you know that, I don't have to mention it to you but you can teach a whole lot here.
You really need to write books and articles. You have a gift.
Me? I am an old cantankerous S.O.B. that is always in trouble for telling the truth!

Ah yes, but there are three sides to every story.....yours, mine, and the truth.......

The 240 XTP just has to be the most accurate bullet made for the .44. 24 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer.
However it opens too fast and the three deer I shot had poor blood trails and I recovered all the bullets. It really does work better at .44 special velocities.
The 300 gr XTP would be my choice first with 20.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 if buying bullets.
Next would be the LBT style WLN or WFN boolits, then the RNFP like the Lee 310 gr.
I just do not like Keith boolits because of accuracy problems in that the gun needs to be perfect and I do mean perfect.
A good cast from the .44 will put meat on the table. Use my loads and don't look back. My loads work in all .44 mags.

That equals one side because you know the truth.

The problem is that the red section is not the truth and is not at all my experience. If it were the truth then everyone would have the same problem and they do not. You are aparently misinterpreting the results.

Let's let Dick come in with his opinion.

No one is stopping Dick from anything, but your claim defies logic and all known terminal ballistics

Since I hunt only deer, it is based on experience in the field, not from books.
Hard and slow cuts a hole. Add some velocity and internal damage increases. Go too fast with the same hardness and you again have a hole punch with needed energy wasted out the other side.
Perfect energy in the right place at the right time for the size of the animal which in my case is deer.
Change the alloy and all velocities work.
Throw the book in the trash can.
The 1300 to 1350 fps perfect position I have is based on hard boolits of about 22 BHN or more.
JWP, if you are shooting 12 to 14 BHN boolits you have no idea what I am talking about because what you use will work.
The .44 is in the right position to use hard and accurate boolits. So is the .475 and the .500 JRH.
The .45 Colt is better with a little softer and so is the .454.
Even the .44 will work better with a little softer on animals but my loads are based on accuracy first and that might escape you.
Come clean, what hardness boolits do you shoot?
Seems that Dick loves a hard boolit for accuracy above all else but with a soft nose and he is 100% correct.
Why do you insist on picking fights? I will not be baited!
We were friends until I said bad things about Freedom guns and I am accused of pity????

Jim, your opinion of the shortcomings of FA revolvers is laughable and irrational. My feelings aren't hurt in the least, so get over it. When you say something that is patently untrue, you are going to be called on it. You seem to deal in absolutes, whereas there are no absolutes in this world.

Firstly, I don't like shooting/hunting with bullets softer than 20 BHN nor harder than 24. The fact is, the Belt Mountain Punch bullet, which will not distort at handgun velocities at all, will leave a bigger wound channel, the faster you run it. That is a provable fact. The same applies to hardcast until the nose is degraded. To claim otherwise is ignorance.

Secondly, if you look in the Big Bore Forum at AR in the Terminal Ballistic thread (this is a comprehensive bullet penetration test), you will find that brass solids with a flat nose leave a larger wound channel at higher speeds just like they do in a revolver. To claim otherwise is again, ignorant.

I too have significant experience in the field on a wide range of big game. I personally am not going to take a chance on a softer bullet. You can believe and use whatever you wish, but when you post falsehoods, I will call you on them. Don't shun books, they're not all bad and frankly I don't understand your aversion to them.

I like what you write. I'm old too but I thought S.O.B. meant short of breath!! Spot on about the primers, many don't experiment enough, they take someone else's word for what works, that can work most times but other times its better to try it for yourself to make sure. Just don't load a bunch at one time, ask me how I know that!!

Dick

amen to that sixshot,know what 'cha mean-L.O.L.

I didn't realize there were 2 pages on here when I posted, I thought I was replying to the last of page 1, seems I've missed out on a few things on page 2!
First off, I really don't want to get into comarisons of peoples experience or the lack of, it just opens a can of worms. Everyone posting here should be patted on the back for using sixguns. For me & for most of you its a passion, I live for it.
I'll start off by saying that I've never recovered a cast bullet, not even one. Thats the beauty of cast, it does what I demand it to do, give me an exit everytime. Its no secret that I prefer cast but I never knock jacketed bullets, I think they are great for deer, probably better than cast. But #1 on the list, at least for me has to be accuracy, not benchrest accuracy, hunting accuracy. I do my best work around 1100-1200 fps & 90% of the time I'm using straight WW alloy, or maybe 1 stick of linotype added. If the accuracy isn't there then I increase the hardness, either by quenching or adding linotype. Hardness goes up as velocity goes up.
Seldom do I care about expansion but if I want it I go to the softnose, but water quenched. This usually comes into play when I'm using one of the smaller calibers like my 357 Maxie or perhaps a 41 maggie. We used a softnose 41 on Steve's moose, one shot kill at 63 yds. It did not exit but had to penetrate at least 4 feet facing straight on. Superb kill.
Once I find something that works I seldom change anything. One exception is my 10 1/2" 44 maggie, I run it fast (1600 fps) with the Keith slug, took a very nice black bear with it. Is it real accurate (nope) but its minute of black bear out to 100+ yds & bears hate it. These slugs are hard, either water dropped WW or 50/50 WW & linotype.
I always chuckle when I read the old timers (Elmer, Skeeter) talk about hard slugs, their bullets were like bubble gum. But it was many years before any sixgun was capable of pushing bullets beyond 1200 fps so what they considered hard & what todays sixgunners consider hard are from the opposite ends of the earth.
I don't think we need to agree on everything, some people say that makes us divided, I don't believe it, my way works for me but many here are outstanding handgunners, I'm guessing you didn't get that way by failing!
I've always tried to be open minded about sixguns, loads, bullets, powder, primers & accuracy, there's just more than one way to get there. Its like 10 of us going to breakfast tomorrow, we're all experienced eaters, would we order the same breasfast, why not! I like spicy sauage, eggs over easy, hashbrowns with country gravy & sourdough toast or an english muffin & a glass of ice cold milk for a belly wash, how could any of you disagree with me!!
I'm hosting a Wounded Warrior this fall on a deer hunt but any of you that would like to do a spring bear hunt or a fall big game hunt are welcome to come to Idaho anytime, just remember about breakfast!
Last thing: This is my priority list on game.

#1 is bullet placement
#2 is complete penetration
#3 is a sharp knife

Dick

No disagreement with any thing that you posted and it mirrors my experience

[quote=sixshot] ...... I'm hosting a Wounded Warrior this fall on a deer hunt but any of you that would like to do a spring bear hunt or a fall big game hunt are welcome to come to Idaho anytime, just remember about breakfast!

Dick
[/quote]

Dick, cudos to you for putting on a hunt like this for the one's that make our way of life possible!

JWP and I don't have many disagreements, he really is a friend.
But deer hunting questions need addressed as deer hunting.
JWP has shot large animals, others bring in moose and bear. That is wrong. The man asked about deer.
That is where my boolit experience is. It takes nothing to put boolits through them and easy to make one work like crazy or fail so fast you will want to give up cast.
For years, this has driven me nuts with answers and pictures posted of huge animals. There is no comparison what so ever.
40" of penetration means nothing when you need to apply energy in 10" to 12" at the right time and place and still make two holes.
YES, YES, YES, JWP, we have seen your pictures for years but you fail to address deer and what works best.
I have the answers for the deer hunter, you have them for a buffalo, can we keep it separate?

No I have not failed to address Deer the principals of terminal ballistics do not change on different game

I have killed plenty of Deer and I prefer a bullet of at least 20 brinnel and not over 24, because I don't want them to become brittle

A Punch bellet will produce a large wound channel in soft tissue the faster it is ran. The faster a bullet is ran the higher the "hydraulic pressure" tha is produced when the bullet impacts soft tissue. The pressure can stretch tissue past its elastic limits and tear the tissue forming a larger wound

I have taken a number of Deer with HARD CAST bullets. I use the same bullet on Large game as I do on small game and have ZERO problems


To claim that a HARD bullet works at X velocity and then calim if one speeds it up up the bullet needs to be softer inorder to expand or it doesn't work well is totaly wrong and incorrect. The added speed will create lrger wounds because of the increased hydrolic pressure

Thanks guys
all good points
Im going to experiment with some loads.
I agree (and have been guily myself) that many load too hot.
Handgun ranges for me is limited. So I really dont need 1500fps.
Im gussing 1050-1250 would do fine.
I will think hard about the fed 150 primers though. Ive always used magnum primers but this makes sense.
Thanks again
My gun returns in two weeks so the testing begins!

I also use the Federal mag pistol primers in most of my loads

John, where I found a bad problem was with the 45-70 BFR with a harder boolit of around 22 BHN. 1632 fps with a WLN and WFN. Deer were lost with no blood trails and those recovered went 200 yards or more with no blood found for 100 yards. Lungs were intact with just a hole through them.
It was so bad I went to the 300 gr Hornady one season and the next I used a 50-50 WW and pure HP. Both worked wonderful.
Now I am sure the hard boolit would have worked in a larger animal or a deer shot at a longer distance.
It gets sticky and hard to understand because the .44 works just fine at a little over 1300 as does the .475 and .500. The .45 Colt does well even though it is slower.
How do you explain it other then the boolit goes through so fast it leaves no energy?
I don't believe in muzzle energy at all for affect on an animal yet energy is really needed inside.
You see, the faster a boolit goes, the higher the muzzle energy goes but where is it applied? Inside or on the other side of a little deer? Is a deer like a paper target?
The punch is a great bullet but you can't convince me it is better on a deer at 1800 fps then it is at 1300 fps.
ONLY IF THE NOSE EXPANDS.

The wound will be larger with the punch on deer with the higher speed.

The number for LBT (Veral Smith) is 208-267-3588 Veral believes from his expereince one can get too large of a wound channel and the animals do not leave a blood trail and go farther

I believe that you are completely understanding what you experienced

I saw these 2 animals with a rifle, but the pictures demonstrate the point that large wound channels do not always leave a blood trail


This deer ran and left no blood trail despite being shot with a 338 Lapau

Entrance




Exit







At the shot this pig went down and then got up and ran off without leaving a blood trail. I had a difficult time fing=ding him and had to put a finisher in him



The damage was massive. Whitworth witnessed the pig

430man, each animal is a biological example of one and they all do not give up the ghost at the same rate. If you have had trouble putting game down with a 45-70 then that is your experience and that is it. I have consistently put game down faster with a 338 win than a 375 H&H and that is my expereince, others had a different than I and my experience proves nothing other than it was my experience.

The 45 Colt has always killed considerably better for me than the 44 mag and the faster 454 has also killed extremely well for me

The deer I had trouble with were double lung shots. Just a small hole from the fast boolit.
I see your point about poor blood trails with guts plugging the hole. That is a given.
Gut shot deer with an arrow are also very bad, not much blood outside.
You can do a lot of damage to a lung but if the boolit angles into the guts and they plug the hole, all blood will stay inside.
I find many gut shot deer each year a long way from where they were shot. No way to track them.
None of my shots ever hit guts, pure lungs only.
I wish we had a camera at each deer that was found. A stick poke through the deer.

Could Randy Garrett's experience help explain the trouble with the double lung shot deer?

Shot Placement and Bullet Selection by Randy Garrett

In my experience and YMMV I have found that it makers not is a rifle is used or a handgun if I do not want them to run the only way to guarenty that they do not is to place the bullet in such a matter as to take out stuctural support bones or CNS hits. I shot a deer with my 30-06 and took out the heart and both lungs and he took off at the shot, no blood on the ground or anything else to indicate a hit. Whne I found they deer about 30 yards away in the woods he fell with one leg pointing 180 degrees away from the other 3. The exit and internal damage was massive to say the least. In no way was there a bullet failure, sometime they just do amazing things whgenthey should not

This Fallow Deer was hit through both lungs with a 425 grain bullet at 1380 about 1380 FPS from the 500 JRH. The Deer simply stood there and then took about 3 or 4 bounds stoped started to wobble and feel over dead.

Upon dressing out the bullet took out a 3 to 4 inch diameter section of lung tissue and all bleeding was internal with none on the ground. Amazing IMHO to say the least, but in no way a failure of the hard cast bullet





As can be seen on the picture no blood and this is where he fell

When hunting with a handgun or a rifle, jacketed bullets or cast, there's just no set rule on how the bullet will work or how the animal will react. Thats one of the reasons we can't draw conclusions from one or two examples.
Probably the most pathetic thing I've ever seen while hunting was a pronghorn antelope that a guy had shot with a 7mm magnum, it was literally shot to pieces & had run perhaps a mile before laying down & he gave it a finisher.
Sometimes a bullet will deflect on bone & run right down the a leg or maybe along the neck, doesn't usually happen with cast slugs but it has happened. If you stay in this hunting game for very many years you're going to see some things that you just can't explain.
Until I see it with my own eyes I'll stick with heavy for caliber cast slugs at 1100-1200 fps, cast from an alloy that gives me good accuracy, again, I don't worry about expansion, I want bullet placement & comeplete penetration.

Dick

+1... Spot on

This thread has been really interesting to me since this will be my first season with a revolver,about 5 yrs ago I was hunting with a 336c Marlin in 30-30,I shot a doe at about 40 yds with a 170 gr Hornady FP over a full snort load of BLC2.At the shot she took of as if she hadnt been touched at all but I couldnt believe I missed her,found her 40 yds away .308 hole in and .308 going out with one broken rib on the off side and not much internal damage to speak of.Been in a delema wether to use 240 jacketed or 300 gr wfngc both shoot very well in my gun.

Which 240 jacketd?

xtp hp

If you use that one put it in the rib cage