7-30 waters for elk
#96909
12/05/2011 12:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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rshugart
OP
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OP
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Hey guys I have a TC contender super 16 pistol and loading 140 Nosler Ballistic tips with a Leupold x4 handgun scope. Would that work for elk?
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: rshugart]
#96912
12/05/2011 12:25 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642
BBwheelgunner
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I do not have a 7-30 waters, but If I were going to use one, the Nosler Ballistic Tips would not be my first choice. I would look to a more heavily constructed bullet like a Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, Barnes, or at least on of the good bonded bullets out there. just my opinion
"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#96918
12/05/2011 1:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
Shootist
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It's been done but you have to remember that the 7-30 is a relative lightweight and is not an ideal elk cartridge. If I had no choice I would use the Nosler Partition and I would keep shots under 100yds and only on a standing animal with a solid rest. I would really suggest stepping up to a larger caliber if elk is something your going to be serious about. The factory 375JDJ barrel is hard to beat for elk in a contender but the 45-70 is another good round if you keep the shots within reason. I hunt elk on a regular basis and they can be tough to bring down and even with perfect shot placement an elk can go a long way with a leaking heart or with the bullet only penetrating on lung. I love the Waters for deer but it's just really questionable on elk.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: wapitirod]
#96920
12/05/2011 1:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16
rshugart
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stranger
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OP
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Thinking about getting a savage striker or the weatherby pistol I found one in 7mm08 and a savage striker in 308. Anyone ever wanting to sell one let my know.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: rshugart]
#96928
12/05/2011 2:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
Distinguished Expert
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I'd go for the Striker WAY before the Weatherby. Much more versatile in aftermarket support and barrel swap capabilities!! I bought a .223 Rem years ago and turned it into a 7mm-08.
Exodus 20:5-11 Matthew 5:18 Revelation 22:14
ISPBS--Expert Level
Please don't use e-mail, contact me w/ PM.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Dan B.]
#96931
12/05/2011 2:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,359
SChunter
Shooting Expert
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Rshughart,
I would think the 7-30 marginal at best for elk - regarding the Striker/Weatherby inquiry, there's a 308 Striker in the Classifieds.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: SChunter]
#96956
12/05/2011 4:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 478
Pasco
addict
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addict
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What Rod said................
Don't confuse shooting with hunting. Shooting is a game, hunting is a sport.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Pasco]
#96964
12/05/2011 5:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 976
doc with a glock
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rshugart,
Have a Striker in stainless, 270 WSM, with built in brake. Wrong handed for me (bolt handle on left - right handed shooter). Excellent condition. Thinking about selling. PM me if interested.
Doc
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: doc with a glock]
#96975
12/05/2011 12:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,331
TCTex.
Shootist
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Shootist
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X 3 on what Rod said!
I would go with the big bore calibers in the Contender. Look at the comments Gregg R. has said about elk calibers...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: rshugart]
#97047
12/05/2011 9:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,001
mikefrompa
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I agree with rod. The 7-30 Waters is definitely light for elk.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: rshugart]
#97065
12/05/2011 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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Hey guys I have a TC contender super 16 pistol and loading 140 Nosler Ballistic tips with a Leupold x4 handgun scope. Would that work for elk? "Would that work for elk?" Like a lucky charm! Put the bullet in the vitial and be ready to start skining. It ain't marginal, I have a friend that took a bull Nilgai with a 10" Contender in 30-30. The Bull Nilgai has a grissle plate like a boar hog and is more difficult to penetrate than an elkk Go for it and good luck
Last edited by jwp475; 12/06/2011 12:29 AM.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97092
12/06/2011 2:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608
s4s4u
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I agree, if you put that slug in the boiler room it should work just fine.
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: s4s4u]
#97116
12/06/2011 5:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
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you can do what you want and like I said before it is capable of killing an elk but then again years ago I knew an old timer that poached for meat and he used a 22 and killed elk with head shots but I wouldn't suggest it even if it were a legal caliber. Personally I've butchered too many elk with bullets in them from earlier seasons to want to take chances, the 308 or even the 7-08 is a much better option but I prefer even bigger cartridges. The problem is that things can go wrong and you can't be sure every shot will hit the mark perfectly every time no matter how good a shot you are. Most guys that are proponents of light for animal calibers either do so because they haven't done it enough to have learned the hard lessons or because they pay guides to clean up their mess but it's different when your doing all the work and have to track a wounded elk literally for miles in elk country.
I shot a doe at 125yds with the 7-30 using 120gr ballistic tips which obviously don't hold up as well as partitions but I still didn't get a pass through on a small blacktail doe of about 80lbs but the bullet fragmented so badly from hitting the rib going in that it destroyed the vitals which is why I like it for deer. Most Rocky Mtn elk shot will go 500-700lbs whereas Roosevelts which I am primarily hunting now go to 700-1000lbs with some going to 1200lbs. A friend got a solid 600lbs of meat off a 7x7 Rosie he took bowhunting.
Last edited by wapitirod; 12/06/2011 7:03 AM.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: wapitirod]
#97119
12/06/2011 6:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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Hit a bull elk broadside through both lungs, at a measured 90 yards, with a 260gr partition from my 454 and I thought I missed because he showed no reaction to the hit. Thought I missed him with the 2nd shot because he again showed no reaction to the hit. Tough animal....
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97121
12/06/2011 7:22 AM
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Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
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Hey guys I have a TC contender super 16 pistol and loading 140 Nosler Ballistic tips with a Leupold x4 handgun scope. Would that work for elk? "Would that work for elk?" Like a lucky charm! Put the bullet in the vitial and be ready to start skining. It ain't marginal, I have a friend that took a bull Nilgai with a 10" Contender in 30-30. The Bull Nilgai has a grissle plate like a boar hog and is more difficult to penetrate than an elkk Go for it and good luck Go with your apples to oranges comparisons from what others have done, but until you stand in the elk hunters boots that actually put a handgun bullet into an elk (maybe you have, I don't know) please be careful. I absolutely agree with Rod, and also can read in to what James from Jersey is saying. Plus, many many times I have stood in the elk hunters boots that has put a handgun bullet into an elk. And witnessed many more. The 7-30 Waters is marginal, at best, for elk, with the ballistic tip, and even with a stouter bullet like the partition, you are on thin ice unless a PERFECT HIT is made at short range. If you are a gambler, then use it, as it is probably legal, but if you want extra insurance, you will likely want to go with a bigger caliber. Just three days ago, I guided a rifle hunter, shooting a .308 rifle, for cow elk. He made a perfect heart shot on a medium size cow, at 50 yards, and she ran about 100 yards, showing no evidence of being hit, until she stopped and after another 10 seconds, acted a bit woozy. I told my hunter to hit her again which he did, and then she finally went down, thrashed a while, then died. And this is only one of dozens of elk kills I have been in on. Just posting from real experience.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97122
12/06/2011 10:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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The ballistic tip is an excellent choice in the 7-30 waters. The velocity is not excessive and one does not want a super tough bullet from handgun velocities.
Elk are not armor plated nor bullet proof, it is about shot placement, not displacement. The 7-30 will have enough penetration to get the job done with proper bullet placement. The 7-30 is not a cartridge to take a shot at the south end of a north bound elk, but few are.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97124
12/06/2011 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
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My elk experience.....shot a medium bull with a rifle. Range was 348yds, gun was a 30-06AI shooting 165gr Nosler Solid Base bullets at near .300 Win Mag velocities. All three rounds impacted in the rib cage and he never flinched from the first two. The last round was aimed a hair higher and took out the spine.
Several years before that I shot one with a bow. Range was 40yds, severed the jugular. It was 15 feet and fell over stone dead.
I have hunted them a few other times and been in on a few other harvests.
In my limited elk experience, as the previous poster noted, they are not arrow or bullet proof. But the problem with elk hunting is that after being hit mortally hit (w/o dropping) they may go into areas that you do not want to have to recover them. That's mainly the reason for most folks suggesting a bigger cartridge. Two holes are better than one for making a better blood trail but if that bullet can also smash up some structural bone on its way out is even better.
Exodus 20:5-11 Matthew 5:18 Revelation 22:14
ISPBS--Expert Level
Please don't use e-mail, contact me w/ PM.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Dan B.]
#97126
12/06/2011 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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What you described can and does happen with any andall rounds at some point
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97131
12/06/2011 1:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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Hey guys I have a TC contender super 16 pistol and loading 140 Nosler Ballistic tips with a Leupold x4 handgun scope. Would that work for elk? "Would that work for elk?" Like a lucky charm! Put the bullet in the vitial and be ready to start skining. It ain't marginal, I have a friend that took a bull Nilgai with a 10" Contender in 30-30. The Bull Nilgai has a grissle plate like a boar hog and is more difficult to penetrate than an elkk Go for it and good luck Go with your apples to oranges comparisons from what others have done, but until you stand in the elk hunters boots that actually put a handgun bullet into an elk (maybe you have, I don't know) please be careful. I absolutely agree with Rod, and also can read in to what James from Jersey is saying. Plus, many many times I have stood in the elk hunters boots that has put a handgun bullet into an elk. And witnessed many more. The 7-30 Waters is marginal, at best, for elk, with the ballistic tip, and even with a stouter bullet like the partition, you are on thin ice unless a PERFECT HIT is made at short range. If you are a gambler, then use it, as it is probably legal, but if you want extra insurance, you will likely want to go with a bigger caliber. Just three days ago, I guided a rifle hunter, shooting a .308 rifle, for cow elk. He made a perfect heart shot on a medium size cow, at 50 yards, and she ran about 100 yards, showing no evidence of being hit, until she stopped and after another 10 seconds, acted a bit woozy. I told my hunter to hit her again which he did, and then she finally went down, thrashed a while, then died. And this is only one of dozens of elk kills I have been in on. Just posting from real experience. How is it an apples to oranges comparision?? I've only been killing game with a handgun since 1970, maybe I need a bit more experience before I can have a valid opinion
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97132
12/06/2011 1:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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2260 FPS with the 140 grain bullet is feasible at about 39000 CUP pressure. I would probably opt for a 120 grainer at2440 FPS if I were going after Elk with the 7-30 Waters
power is fine, but accuracy is final
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: TCTex.]
#97158
12/06/2011 5:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,331
TCTex.
Shootist
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Shootist
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Posts: 7,331 |
X 3 on what Rod said!
I would go with the big bore calibers in the Contender. Look at the comments Gregg R. has said about elk calibers...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Dan B.]
#97165
12/06/2011 5:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
Distinguished Expert
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My elk experience.....shot a medium bull with a rifle. Range was 348yds, gun was a 30-06AI shooting 165gr Nosler Solid Base bullets at near .300 Win Mag velocities. All three rounds impacted in the rib cage and he never flinched from the first two. The last round was aimed a hair higher and took out the spine.
Several years before that I shot one with a bow. Range was 40yds, severed the jugular. It was 15 feet and fell over stone dead.
I have hunted them a few other times and been in on a few other harvests.
In my limited elk experience, as the previous poster noted, they are not arrow or bullet proof. But the problem with elk hunting is that after being hit mortally hit (w/o dropping) they may go into areas that you do not want to have to recover them. That's mainly the reason for most folks suggesting a bigger cartridge. Two holes are better than one for making a better blood trail but if that bullet can also smash up some structural bone on its way out is even better. Well said, Dan. No one here has said elk are bullet proof, jwp. As I stated, the 7-30 will work. And the reason I said apples to oranges is that it seemed that you were comparing an elk to a bull Nilgai. When I guide or personally hunt for elk, I just like more horsepower because I have tracked them in the black timber and blowdowns after being mortally hit, and it is just plain hard work; (and even harder packing them out) that may have been averted by a bigger gun... And yes, we lost an elk that seemed like it was hit well; it happened to be with a 30 caliber. Of course I agree that the smaller legal calibers, (and illegal ones) including the .243 which is legal, will kill elk. They just are not my first choice. I have killed several elk (5-6?) with my 30-06 JDJ Encore; and I would say maybe that is my personal minimum caliber...
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97166
12/06/2011 5:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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The Nilda is a tougher animal that was killed with a simular cartridge
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97169
12/06/2011 5:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
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RE: The shot with the .243 on the elk: a good shot, probably a spine shot, which is a very low percentage shot at long range.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97173
12/06/2011 5:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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RE: The shot with the .243 on the elk: a good shot, probably a spine shot, which is a very low percentage shot at long range. Are you sure that the shot was not a shoulder shot?
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97209
12/07/2011 12:03 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,378
Darrell H
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2260 FPS with the 140 grain bullet is feasible at about 39000 CUP pressure. I would probably opt for a 120 grainer at2440 FPS if I were going after Elk with the 7-30 Waters
power is fine, but accuracy is final
I never thought that I would live to see the day that JWP475 recommended a "light for caliber" bullet on large game. My 15" Bullberry 7-30 Improved has taken elk. Unfortunately, not by me. I bought it from sixshot and IIRC he used it successfully on elk. Hopefully he will chime in with his thoughts on its effectiveness. Personally, I would not use it on elk because I have other choices. My elk experience is a grand total of two bull elk. Both were shot with a 150 grain Accubond/Varget handload from 308 Win Encore handguns. The first was shot at 80 yards, quartering to and I hit it in its left shoulder. At the shot, it reared up on its hind legs and collapsed in its tracks. I swung to my left and put another round in its right shoulder for insurance. My second elk was shot at 263 yards and I hit it behind its right shoulder quartering away. The 150 grain Accubond lodged just under the skin in the elk's left shoulder. The elk ran 35-40 yards and toppled over.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Darrell H]
#97211
12/07/2011 12:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Whitworth]
#97213
12/07/2011 12:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
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Exodus 20:5-11 Matthew 5:18 Revelation 22:14
ISPBS--Expert Level
Please don't use e-mail, contact me w/ PM.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Darrell H]
#97214
12/07/2011 12:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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Well done Darrel
I know several that use the 120 grain in the 7-08 on Moose
Also the lower velocity of the handguns (in rifle Chambered cartridges} need the added speed of the lighter weights to expand as designed. The lower speeds will also allow for adequate penetration
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97236
12/07/2011 3:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
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Nice Darrell. I see that you wisely (IMHO) chose the Accubond, which is a tough bullet designed for deep penetration yet also expands; very similar to the Partitions which Rod and I are fond of.
My 30-06 JDJ elk were taken with either the Partition or the Accubond.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97237
12/07/2011 3:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
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I know several that use the 120 grain in the 7-08 on Moose
Oh really? How many is "several?" And why such a light bullet on the biggest deer species on this continent? Just to prove that it can be done? Getting back to the "a .22 will kill... (put in whatever animal you wish... lol)" I do not see the sense in doing that, jwp475. But if a hunter has no better choice, and it is legal, it will be done. Not my cup of tea. I will lock this post if it gets much more pointed in the wrong direction.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97239
12/07/2011 4:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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Half dozen, they seem to like the weight. the handguns chambered in rifle cartridges aren't in need of a heavy bullet in order to slow the bullet so as to not over tax from excessive velocity. The short barrel gives up enough velocity
A Nosler AccuBond is simply a bonded Ballistic Tip. No need for a premium in a contender. I shot a 308 Wichita and a contender for years and never saw the need for a heavy for caliber bullet in either
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: jwp475]
#97241
12/07/2011 4:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642
BBwheelgunner
Pooh-Bah
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this is a hot one! lol.
I have revolvers, but if i were gonna buy a single shot to elk hunt with i would be curious about the 338 federal.
probably do a little more research on it but seems to me like it would do well. I know this won't solve the debate but just a thought lol.
"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#97242
12/07/2011 5:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
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I have seen 7mm 140 NBT's with an impact velocity of 2159 do a number on a bull elk. This is the internet. We are all hunters. We can all get pig-headed at times. We all have opinions. We are still going to use what we want to use. Lighten up everybody (that needs to hear it) Merry Christmas!!!
Just don't be trying out that Waters on a reindeer
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#97243
12/07/2011 5:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
Shootist
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I've heard good things about the 338Federal in the Encore and I think it would be an excellent choice for elk. I'm getting read for my ag damage hunt, in fact the farmer called this evening to make arrangements to go to ODFW and get one of his tags in my name. There are three primary guns I will choose from, my 454 with a red dot, 300Win Mag Encore or the 458 Win Mag Encore. The 454 I'm running 300gr XTP's, 300 I've been shooting 180gr Accubonds but I'm going out tomorrow to chrono a couple of guns and test some 150 Accubonds, the 458 is the 350gr HotCor from Speer and it's the Encore I'm leaning too since it's a virgin but we'll see that will be another post. I can say among rifle hunters here in the NW corner of Oregon the two most popular calibers for Rosie's are the 30-378 and the 300RUM although you'll see a wide array but most of the guns are 308 and bigger with the vast majority being 30cal mags and bigger.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#97247
12/07/2011 6:54 AM
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Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
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this is a hot one! lol.
I have revolvers, but if i were gonna buy a single shot to elk hunt with i would be curious about the 338 federal.
probably do a little more research on it but seems to me like it would do well. I know this won't solve the debate but just a thought lol. If you showed up in my elk camp with a .338 Federal, I would be all smiles! Great choice for elk!
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97258
12/07/2011 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375
Dan B.
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,375 |
If you showed up in my elk camp with a .338 Federal, I would be all smiles! Great choice for elk! Or it's Contender friendly twin, the .338JDJ#2. I loaned mine out to a friend that used a bonded 220gr bullet to take a 5x4 in Montana.
Exodus 20:5-11 Matthew 5:18 Revelation 22:14
ISPBS--Expert Level
Please don't use e-mail, contact me w/ PM.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#97260
12/07/2011 11:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
I will lock this post if it gets much more pointed in the wrong direction.
Settle down, Gregg, all of us kids are playing nicely together. No need to lock it down.
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Re: 7-30 waters for elk
[Re: Ernie]
#97264
12/07/2011 12:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097 |
I have seen 7mm 140 NBT's with an impact velocity of 2159 do a number on a bull elk.
There you have it, experience talking. Who can argue with that
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