Craig

I did find some 260 load data using 3 powders; Power Pistol, AA#7, and True Blue. Power Pistol is #33 on Hodgden's Burn Rate chart, Unique is 31. The max load for the Power Pistol and the 260 Speer JHP is 9.4. My Unique load with the 255 cast is 3.4grs under that so we'll see.

During all this preparation, I found a box of 260gr Nosler Partition-HG's. The box says hollow point, but I'd call it a cup-point. I may try a few of these and some AA#7. The data I have shows 11.1grs of AA#7 and a 260 speer hp giving 1077fps out a a 5" Kimber with the Clark conversion. If the Nosler is stout enough, that might make a good 'bear thumper'.



It's the last bullet on the right. L-R:Speer 230 Gold Dot, bulk 230jhp (Midway, I think), 255cast swc, 255cast LeeRF, Hornady 255XTP, and Nosler 260.

I think E&E, D&J, and Hunter all must have used a similiar mold. That Nosler Partition is more than stout enough, it's designed for heavy 45LC and 454 Loads. I used it in my 460 before I sold it and it was an exceptionally accurate bullet and I would have used it for big bears. It's similiar to the A frame which is also a tough bullet the only problem is the partitions are pretty much gone. They had a short run of them but as far as I know they are out of them already.

Rod

Don't know how old the Noslers are, at least 5yrs, but the price in the box of 50 is 48.95. At that price a fella couldn't afford to shoot too many. Thanks for the info on just how 'stout' they are. I'll load a few and see how they function.

Russell,

Thanks for the additional information. I am sure Unique will work to a point, it is just that most of the sources use something a bit slower. And it is not just about absolute pressure and top loads, but the pressure curve and the locking/delayed opening of the 1911 slide. As I am sure you know, the slide is headed backwards before the bullet leaves the barrel. One of the reasons the comp works so well is due to the faces on the perpendicular edges of the comp getting hit with gases. This in effect causes the barrel to "drag" against the slide's "pull". And all of it affects just how much total rearward velocity the slide gets. And how much gets transmitted to the frame. So it really is a system of moving parts. Lots of room to experiment to get the right balance of things.

As to the bullets, if you are open minded about the slightly lesser weights, the Hornady XTP line has some real potential. As they make the 45 diameter bullets in standard and magnum version (for the 454), you can tweak penetration and expansion this way. In my wet newsprint testing, the mag versions do penetrate deeper with less expansion than the non-magnum offereings, just like you would expect. The other nice thing about the XTP's is that have been the most accurate bullets in all of my Rowlands, without exception. I have tested many of the premium 230 HP's, and without exception the Rowland at the top end flat turns them inside out.

I tried seating the FA's 260's yesterday in a regular acp case, and it looks like they might work for feeding. The core is really hard lead, so I am thinking that they could behave like the Nosler, or even like hard cast lead, as they do have a decent meplat. I need to test these, and they are priced between the XTP's and Nosler's. I think if I were going after a white tail type critter, and wanted very good expansion with decent penetration, I would skip the 230's all together, and use either the XTP in 250, or even the Nosler 250 Sport bullet. The XTP seems to hang together better than the Nosler, but neither would break the bank for practice. Driven to the same velocity, the 240 XTP mag has out penetrated the 230 or 250 regular XTP's. You can really split hairs just in the XTP line.

I wish I could find a source for the Lee 255 you have pictured. I would love to try that one with my current 45 Super endeavours.


And Rod I would agree with you, that 255 grain SWC bullet has just been popular for too many years with the Colt shooters to die off completely. I think Midway has a couple maker's of those listed. I cannot count the number of local caster one-off's I have seen in gun shops and shows over the years.

Thanks,

Craig

You guys might to see this if you have not. A link to a post on the Hunting page here:

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=100516&page=0#Post100516

I checked the Grizzly cartridge line-up, and they only offer the bullet in 230 +P. Not Super or Rowland. I'll let you guys tell me what you think that bullet looks like, but I have a guess. Very interesting.

Craig

Found this page on Hornady's web site. The bullet performance vs velocity chart looks very usefull in picking a bullet for the .460 Rowland. I like the range shown for the 250 gr HP/XTP if it can be made to feed reliably.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf

Looks like Hornady XTp to me.

Rio,

Yes, a good link. I have that info squirreled away for my light 454 loads with XTP's. You would not have any issues getting any XTP's in 45 caliber to work and function in the Clark kit. I have tried them all, and had zero issues. And all shoot to the barrel's potential for accuracy, all of them. Or is that my potential ;^), I always forget.

My go to loads for my Rowland for carry (not necessarily hunting per se) are 250 Ranier plated and the 250 XTP. I run them both at about 1050 fps, so they are light by Rowland standards, but I have penetration tested them and the Ranier penetrates for days, and the 250 seems to give me a better hole than the 230's. Here at home I load up the XTP's, and when I am at the ranch the gun is loaded with the raniers, with a spare mag with the XTP's. The ranch has problems with poachers, and the idiots in the subdivision next door like to feed the bears. They end up at the cabin many times, and are just plain aggrevating. Sometimes the neighbors, usually the bears ;^)

Yup, I agree, the Grizzly round sure looks supiciously like the 230 XTP.

Craig

That's a good chart, Hank. It's in one of my Hornady loading manuals(along with the rest of Hornady's line up).

I concur that the Grizzly round is a 'dead ringer' for the 230 XTP.

I'll have to look at FA's 260. If they're a solid, they could be just the ticket.

I'm not locked in to the Unique.( I only loaded 10 rds) i'm just 'bull headed' enough to think that other powders 'might' work in the Rowland as well as the ones I've found listed. I'll be watching the 'signs'.

Don't know of any commercial source for the LEE. I like the bullet in my .45colts and they seem to like it better than the 255swc.

I recieved my Clark kit today and was disappointed with some shoddy machine work on the barrel bushing. The band that is machined down to make the latch was not machined down flush. As a result the bushing could not go into the slide.

I have sent the slide and barrel back, but IMO it should have never been shipped like that.

Don't have mine yet, but I don't like the sounds of that.

Hopefully it is an isolated case. The rest of it looked ok, but of course I could not check the barrel fit.

I don't know if they make the bushing or someone else that they buy it from, but in any case it should be checked before they install it and install the muzzle brake.

Hank,

That sucks. I have always gotten mine from Brownells. I know that Clark told me they fit them on a Kimber gun, but it sounds like they could not have actually fit this one on any gun. In thinking about it, if the kit directly from them is the same as the Brownell's offering, they may not be able to really do a complete check fit, as the hood will likely have to be dressed for length and width ( a good thing).

I have ordered bushings from Clark, or gotten them on full length guide rods, and what is installed on their Rowland kit is the same you get when ordering a bshing only or guide rod. That should have been fit. And I think you said they had your slide? Makes no sense.

Craig

No, they didn't have my slide. I was going to do the fitting myself with the help of my machinist friend that I mentiond earlier, so I just ordered a kit for self fitting. I never expected that the bushing would not even go in the slide. We probably could have polished the bushing down. If it had been properly machined it should not have to be polished. IMO the bushing was not properly centered when they machined the latch and that caused some meat to be left on the band opposite from the latch. So I decided to just send it back with the slide so Clark can fix it.

I see. Probably the best thing to do, as trying to polish the bushing with it on the barrel would have been a pain. And removing the comp can be a pain the rear.

Craig

C

I just hope they don't decide to open the hole in the slide to make the bushing fit rather than install a new bushing that has been correctly machined. I am a bit nervous since I see that their quality control is a bit lacking. If it was my company and this had happened rather than fix the barrel I would send a whole new barrel after careful inspection to make sure it is right.

After studying Hornady's bullet performance chart I have decided to go with the 250 gr XTP/HP as a better bullet for all around use than the 230 gr.

Since I cast most of own, I'm going to use the LEE452-255RF for most of my shooting and leave the jacketed to 'on occassion' status. Of course that depends on how well the casts shoot and whether of not they 'lead' the comp excessively.

Still waiting on mine, Hank. Clark's been in the business a long time and has a good rep with the self-loader crowd. I'm hopeing yours was just one of those 'oops' that slip through ever so often.

Hank and 1948,

In my limited wet news print testing, the 230 at 1295 penetrated just a tad less than the 250 at at 1150. But the 250's retain weight better, and do not get loose between the jacket and core. As I mentioned the 230's just get flat turned inside out. As this is newsprint and not critters, I am not sure it is conclusive, but when combined with the scads of bullets recovered from my dirt banks I still kinda lean towards the 230 at velocities above 1250 or so is getting to be above where I want a bullet to deform so radically. I do not mind the petals being flat against the core, or even torn off, but when the main lead core is being flattened. I start to question things. For what it is worth, the 240 XTP mag performed about equal to the 250 when driven at 1220 fps.

1948, I do like the looks of that Lee bullet, and you know more about lead than I ever will, but I would highly recomend at least working with some XTP's, if only to see what your accuracy potential is with the barrel. I have tested a lot of lead and jacketed through many Rowland barrels, and the XTP's always shoot lights out right now for accuracy. The lead has always been like lead in revolvers, lots of frustration. But I am sure you have been down that road many times.

Hank, I would not worry about Clark and them fouling your slide. They have indeed been around a very long time, with Clark Jr. taking the company over from his dad. On a conversion where they know the original gun barrel will still be used, to bugger a slide in lieu of the cost of a cheap part would be a terrible rookie mistake. And it sounds like the bushing was not true (round), so to make the slide fit would take a ton more work. Between my Rowlands and full length guide rods, I have probably had 10 perfect bushings from them over the years. They do have the ability to do them correctly. Sorry you caught the lemon.

Craig

I have talked to them on the phone and now feel better about it except for the fact that they claim to check every kit by putting it in a slide. If this is true they need to get a new slide because the one they are using has an out of tolerance hole or my kit got out without inspection.

I know this, my machinist buddy was unimpressed. Of course he is like most machinist I know, very much perfectionist. In fact I would say he is the champ in that regard. That is why I am very confident in his help in this project.

Excellent thread!! I read the entire thing & learned a lot.

I do have one uneducated question if I may. Is there anyone who does a conversion kit without the compensator on the barrel? I never much cared for compensators or muzzlebreaks. I have fired some heavy recoiling cartridges like J D Jones' .378 WBY cut back to 2" & necked to .50 cal. I currently shoot an Encore .30/06. So I am not scared by recoil

Wilson Combat sells a complete gun without a muzzle break, but after all my research I feel that the muzzle break is not for the sake of reducing recoil for the shooter, but to keep from tearing up the gun. Bearbait has done extensive testing and can comment more on this issue.

Like Hank said, the comp is for the gun and not so much for ths shooter. I have been looking into one of these for some time and this thread has shed a lot of light on the subject. Great reading.

Craig,
The 250XTP is an accurate bullet. I load it in my .45colts with Lil Gun, Unique, and H110/W296, but that LEE is one of the more accurate 'home cast' bullets I've shot (and I've shot several lbs of numerous designs).The fact that there's more of it to ingage the rifling may have something to do with it; similar to the LBT_WFN designs that I shoot. As to how it'll work in the Rowland remains to be seen. I do have the 255XTPs on hand and will shoot some of them. Your test with it are similar to what I've found (wet sand). I usually run the XTPs around 1000-1050fps. In, fact, they are usually the fisrt round 'up' in my .45colts, followed by the casts, when I 'hunting'.

I looked long and hard at the Wilson w/o the comp (lead bullets), but was concerned on how much actual shooting it would stand before starting to show significant wear problems.For me and my 'peace of mind', the Clark was the better way to go.

Joe,

As Hank and Russell noted, the comp is indeed needed in the Clark offering. Having intentionally shot the Clark without the comp (and destroying the barrel lugs) I can confirm that a 230 at full throttle without the comp is pretty violent in recoil, compared to with the comp. What I do not know is how much of the recoil mitigation is venting gases or how much is just the pure weight hanging on the end of the gun barrel.

I remember thinking the first time I touched one off way back when was that the recoil was very mild, compared to my 454 loads of similar power, or other magnum guns I have owned and fired. You can definately feel the power in your hand, but it is very much straight back, with just a little muzzle rise. It was definately one of those wow, that ws not bad at all moments.

Back to the issue of why Wilson does it without the comp, it has to be the overall fit of their gun. As the Clark is a drop in unit designed to fit (or misfit) a lot of different guns, Clark has no control of the entire gun system. As such, they have to mitigate what they are able. Also if you look at the velocity data that Wilson lists on their web page (I think), you will see they show a 230 at about 100 fps less than earlier published data. In retrospect, I have spent enough money on 460 barrels over the years to have paid for a Wilson, but then they were not available back then. I would love to own one, or even have one to test side by side with the Clark, just to feel any differences.

Russell, the only thing that gives me peace of mind these days with the Rowland is my learning curve is mostly behind me, at the least the steep ugly part of the curve. I do not need to shoot so many rounds, and I have a good selection of solid base loads that work for me. If I had a Wilson ten years ago, I am sure I would have destroyed it by now ;^) Besides, when it comes to 1911's I am just plain weak. I have to tinker with them, I have no control.....

Craig

Craig,
I'm 'tinker junkie'. Not just the 1911, but all types of firearms. My longtime friend and gun nut was by Wed and I was telling him about the Rowland and showing him the data and info I'd found on it. We got to remembering all the 'projects' we both have done the last half century. If I had all the money I've spent on 'projects'.......
Anyway, just waiting on the Clark conversion to get here so I can get started.

I agree, my "scrap" pile has not been terribly large all this time, and the money spent was certainly fun and educational. Maybe I should have gone to gunsmithing school years ago when I was serioulsy pondering it. Then I could have gotten paid all these years to break things......Well, sort of. I guess I am happy I am a little smarter, and still have all of the body parts I started with. Well except for my hair, but I cannot blame that on the guns ;^)

Craig

FedX dropped it off this morning!

opened the package and laid out the parts.



Then installed the parts and checked for function.



Everything works!

I did not have the problem that Hank did with his kit, so I'm assuming that his was just 'Murphy's Law' rearing its head. The only problem I encountered was mine and not the kit's. I couldn't get the 24# spring in and after several tries, installed the 20# spring that Clark also puts in the kit. My initial loads are not 'barn burners' as I'm only wanting 1000-1050fps out of a 255gr'er.

Now to get out to the range a run some rounds through it.

I just got an email that they are shipping my barrel and slide back today. I know from my tracking info that they received it late yesterday afternoon, so that is good service.

Sweet! Looks good, can't wait to do mine.

Russell,

Looks great. Yup, that 24# spring can be a bit of a wrestle. You'll get the hang of it with a little practice. I am off to the shooting hole today as well. Probably not the Rowland, but the same gun in 45 Super, low end. Wanna see how fast I can push a 230 XTP (no comp) before either the recoil becomes more than I want on the gun or my hand, and to see if my Sprinco works properly.

I hope the chrony does not object to the cold weather.....

Craig

I get 1090 FPS with Buffalo Bore factory loaded 255 grain hard cast in 45 Super and still have the option to fire 45 ACP rounds in the same gun without any changes what so ever.
The barrel slide lock up is a long as possible and I only use and 18.5 pound spring. I do not like the 20+ pound springs

Still haven't got to put a magazine full 'downrange'. The city has closed the public range as of this month ( fenced it off and pulled the culvert). Hadn't had the chance to run up to the homeplace, yet so.....

Thanks for the info jwp475, but I wanted the Rowland and not a Super.

Does you gun have a muzzle brake?

Another uneducated question if I may. I like the idea of the .460 Rowland, but how would that compensator be on a carry gun?

My hands are really small and the 1911 is one of very few guns that fits me well.

Do you mean concealed carry or carry for hunting? IMHO the Rowland is for hunting. A standard 45 ACP is more than enough for 2 legged varmints. The muzzle break only adds about an inch or so to the length of a 1911 which should not be an issue for hunting carry.

I was thinking more along the lines of everyday in town carry. You are right. The ACP would probably be enough. Sometimes I just like being different.

No sir, mine does not have a muzzle break

Jo

One of my deputies carried a compensated .45acp built for him by John Nowlin,(now Nowlin Industries). Danny used a combat commander and with the comp contoured to the frame, it was no different than carrying a 'government model'. Ain't nothing wrong with being 'different'.

Just did some testing this weekend along the lines of the last few posts. I decided to try some 45 Super loads, mostly testing the gun without the comp, using a power level that should not beat the gun up. But I was mostly interested in how far I could take a Super without comp to the point where the gun felt and recoiled like a full Rowland with comp.

So in working up a load with the 230 XTP, I got to just shy of 1100 fps. The recoil impulse of the gun, as well as the "thump" and the distance the brass was going put this at my stopping point. This is very subjective, so others might see and feel something different. And as I mentioned earlier, my gun is setup for the Rowland so I was comfortable with the amount of slide banging going on. And for the record, an 1100 fps 230 XTP out of the Rowland is a very easy shooter.

I was also wanting to see how far I would want to go "comp-less" as there are times the full Rowland comp is a little long. As I prefer a Commander for carry perhaps my judgement on a 6" gun for carry is a bit slanted, but I think the Rowland for CCW would be for someone who has a very specific window of needs.

And as this was sorta addressed in JWP's posts, I do shoot 45 acp's out of my Rowland. BUT, I only do so after a lot of research and thought. The folks who shoot the supped up 40 say that shooting 40 S & W in the same gun is dangerous. I tried to find a good reason, with little luck. Johnny Rowland advertises it being safe in the Rowland. The other kicker is that the acp round has to hold (headspace)on the extractor to work, so it probably stresses the extractor a bunch. And you will have to play with spring rates and ejector length and shape, but it is doable. And top end 45 acp loads feel like plinkers out of the Rowland setup.

Craig