Karl-Thankyou very much for the research and data.The C.E.B. bullets that I am using are the handgun raptors,they don't give terminal velocity for.I did shoot a water jug at 65 yds and found 3 petal holes in the remains of the jug as they say it will perform.The flat base bullets that you describe are rifle bullets.As for the barnes I can't get them to group under 4" at 100yds.The C.E.B. bullets are giving me consistent groups 2" and under using 17.8 grains of power pistol so I'm sticking with that load. I don't think I can do better than that.